What do you guys know about islam

[AbdullahG]

Its been said, there were 2 brothers, 1 became the leader of the Jews, the other, the leader of the Muslim peoples, whats the thoughts, or, findings on this?

I'm not too familiar with this. Sounds interesting though.

 

[AbdullahG]

My thoughts on that:

Either way, they are brothers by blood. When one needs help, you help him. Even though they are of different faith, and that in terms of faith, they are not exactly brothers, kindness and acceptance is a moral that should be followed regardless of religion. Who will you turned to when your brothers of faith have abandoned you? Who will you turn you when you do not have God's favor? Your family.

 

[jsc]

Oh, and I just wanted to add one more thing. Someone mentioned about going to Saudi Arabia. Regardless of whether you are a Muslim or Non-Muslim, you will not be treated kindly. Saudi Arabia pushed religion down it's citizen's throat to the extent it's just not the same religion. My friends uncle and his friend lived their for awhile. They are Indian-born Muslims. They were treated like crap, dogs, etc. Why? because they weren't Arabic. They didn't speak Arabic. The arrogance of being Arabic like many of the Prophets, being able to read and understand the Quran, and so on has brought arrogance to them. Not all of them are like this, but you will not experience the kindest welcoming.

There's some truth to this. There's a lot of institutional arrogance, particularly among the tribal Saudis, because Saudi Arabia is "The Land of the Two Holy Mosques".

It must really bother the Saudis that the Al-Azhar University, the center of all Islamic Studies, is in Egypt.

And the Saudis treat the Hajj, the obligatory pilgrimage that all Muslims are supposed to do at least once in their lives, as a giant cash cow.

 

[Mutt x]

AbdullahG,

Glad you joined in the discussion.

It is my understanding that while Islam does mean "peace" it means the peace that comes from submission. Unfortunately, some Muslims see that as permission to dominate others (ie force submission). You say that there is no compulsion in religion but in the nations where Islam has the most influence non-Muslims are persecuted and people who leave Islam are punished. What do you make of what is happening to the Copts in Egypt, the Christians and Animist in Northern Sudan or the Jews in Iraq? They have always been oppressed but lately they have been violently persecuted.

The question about the two brothers in faith can be referenced in the Old Testament book of Genesis chapters 16 and 17. It recounts the story of Abraham's two son Ishmael and Issac. Genesis 25 lists some of the descendants of Ishmael.

I don't see much Muslim charity to non-Muslims. Maybe that happens more on an interpersonal level. Most Muslims are non-violent though but I don't attribute that to the teachings of Islam. The Koran gives explicit permission to lie to non-Muslims, capture sex-slaves and execute apostates for example. It's kindest words about non-Muslims are to leave them alone until they bother you.

I will also disagree that Abraham or other OT prophets were Muslims and with your claim that Islam did not start with Mohammed. YWHW is the God of the Bible/Jews/Christians and Allah is the God of the Koran/Islam. There is no reference to Allah in the OT or NT. There is no reference to Allah outside of Saudia Arabia until Mohammed came on the scene.

 

[Mutt x]

I can see why this upsets people ... It's the hat and the googly eyes.

Here is some inappropriate Christian humour to offend others as a diversionary tactic ...

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j48/sarahcicatrix/funny/jesus.jpg

Reynod,

So your logic is if you offend two groups of people its ok? lol if you say so.

BTW I don't think many Christians at all would be offended by the picture. Even if they are Creationists the believe the dinosaurs perished in the flood or even before so Jesus riding a T-Rex doesn't really impinge on any Christian beliefs.

I think we pay too much attention to what offends people. Tolerance is the greatest (and only virtue) for many Westerners. Now, while all people are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect (tolerance) not all ideas or beliefs are worthy of that same respect. Too bad so many people can't tell the difference.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

gropouce
OT here, but showing how far left of center the media is here in the US
If this were any other religious group, itd be OK
http://sheckymagazine.com/2011/11/solidarite-avec-charlie-hebdo/

Im not condoning anything like this at all, but deciding how one reacts to insults as to how to respond is way too far out there, as anything concerning religion is very personal, and if one forgives while another hits back, its a lousy excuse to derive your opinion, such as Time magazine did
Sorry for the OT

I looked up several references, about Isaac and Ismael, from differing persepctives, but whats interesting is, all show that they come from the same family, as down the road, one was Jewish, the other Muslim as the family lineage played out

 

[AbdullahG]

AbdullahG,

Glad you joined in the discussion.

It is my understanding that while Islam does mean "peace" it means the peace that comes from submission. Unfortunately, some Muslims see that as permission to dominate others (ie force submission). You say that there is no compulsion in religion but in the nations where Islam has the most influence non-Muslims are persecuted and people who leave Islam are punished. What do you make of what is happening to the Copts in Egypt, the Christians and Animist in Northern Sudan or the Jews in Iraq? They have always been oppressed but lately they have been violently persecuted.

The question about the two brothers in faith can be referenced in the Old Testament book of Genesis chapters 16 and 17. It recounts the story of Abraham's two son Ishmael and Issac. Genesis 25 lists some of the descendants of Ishmael.

I don't see much Muslim charity to non-Muslims. Maybe that happens more on an interpersonal level. Most Muslims are non-violent though but I don't attribute that to the teachings of Islam. The Koran gives explicit permission to lie to non-Muslims, capture sex-slaves and execute apostates for example. It's kindest words about non-Muslims are to leave them alone until they bother you.

I will also disagree that Abraham or other OT prophets were Muslims and with your claim that Islam did not start with Mohammed. YWHW is the God of the Bible/Jews/Christians and Allah is the God of the Koran/Islam. There is no reference to Allah in the OT or NT. There is no reference to Allah outside of Saudia Arabia until Mohammed came on the scene.

Thank you for your input. The thing is, we cannot fully comprehend the Quran. This is why we had prophets. There are points in the Quran where we assume one thing based on our interpretation. That's the problem. Nowadays, when the average Muslim reads the Quran, they probably do not know what they are reading. It's sad, and the same can go for the Bible and Torah, the Christian and the Jews, and everyone and everything else. The Prophets are gone, and now that task of teaching Islam and actually understand it correctly is in our hands, but unfortunately, most of us fail to do so. If we weren't busy chasing after these worldly things, we could understand AT LEAST some of the Quran.

As for persecution, like I said, religion there is pushed down everyone's throat to a point it isn't the same religion. Those countries take Islam beyond what it truly is. I am against their teachings and philosophy. Unfortunately, the arrogance those countries have brought upon themselves will be accounted for. That isn't Islam that you see there. During the time of the Prophets, the Jews and Christians were not persecuted by the Muslims. They would approach them asking them to submit. if they did not, they had to buy a tribute, and would receive protection, food, supplies, etc. If they refused to accept that, then they call for war. Religion is not strictly about peace. The reality is, whether religion existed or did not, war and fighting would no go away. It's a human characteristic. Islam shows what reality is.

I said before, the Torah and Bible are God's Testament. Yes, at the time, they were called Christians and Jews, but in a sense, they are Muslim. Like I said, "Muslim" is an Arabic term for one who submits or surrenders to God. It's just nowadays (or for the past 1400 years), Muslim is term for those who follow Islam ever since the Quran was brought down. When people hear "Allah" they assume it's the God in Islam. Wrong. Completely wrong. "Allah" is just the Arabic term for God. So the God that you hear in the Bible and the Torah is the same as that in the Quran. The Bible and Torah were not written in Arabic. We could say either Allah or God, we we prefer using Allah because of Arabic being a holy language for us. So yes, "God" has been mentioned outside of Saudi Arabia or before the time of Muhammad.

 

[AbdullahG]

There's some truth to this. There's a lot of institutional arrogance, particularly among the tribal Saudis, because Saudi Arabia is "The Land of the Two Holy Mosques".

It must really bother the Saudis that the Al-Azhar University, the center of all Islamic Studies, is in Egypt.

And the Saudis treat the Hajj, the obligatory pilgrimage that all Muslims are supposed to do at least once in their lives, as a giant cash cow.

I'm aware of what the Saudi's do. I question whether they understand what Islam is, and if they have any sense of what morals are.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I remember an old Muslim friend of mine, going back to the Iran Iraq wars, where he told me that Saddam Hussein was bad news, and so was the leadership of Iran, and many in the Muslim world looked upon the whole thing as a terrible scenario, Muslim killing Muslim.
I asked him at that time, if the US interfered, would there be jihad, he said no, jihad was for a special purpose.
This man was from Egypt, and had lived thru the 67 war, and the whole of Egypt was tired of burying their sons, and wanted peace.
It was some tho, that condemned Egypt, and especially Anwar Sadat, for recognizing Israel, and is why later on, he was assassinated.
I havnt had as much Muslim friends/exposure for quite awhile, and I believe many Muslims are having their religion hijacked by many that are poor and easily upset, to the point of jihad, by some who want nothing more than power.
Is this as you or other Muslims see it as well?

 

[AbdullahG]

Another question,

Is it true that a man named Waraquah, cousin to Khadijah, was Mohammed's closest advisor and that he was very loyal Roman Catholic?

Actually, Muhammad's closest advisor was his father-in-law. I do not remember his name though. Waraquah was a Christian priest, I believe, at the time. This was when Christianity was God's most recent testament (the Bible), or before Muhammad began to spread Islam or was a Prophet. When Muhammad became a Prophet, Waraquah accepted the teachings of Islam, though he remained Christian. He was accounted as a companion of Muhammad, and Muhammad said himself that Waraquah is a man of Heaven (one who is destined to enter the Gates of Heaven).

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Not truly knowing the difference between the Shia beliefs and the Sunni beliefs, I know of Ali, but not the differences

 

[AbdullahG]

I remember an old Muslim friend of mine, going back to the Iran Iraq wars, where he told me that Saddam Hussein was bad news, and so was the leadership of Iran, and many in the Muslim world looked upon the whole thing as a terrible scenario, Muslim killing Muslim.
I asked him at that time, if the US interfered, would there be jihad, he said no, jihad was for a special purpose.
This man was from Egypt, and had lived thru the 67 war, and the whole of Egypt was tired of burying their sons, and wanted peace.
It was some tho, that condemned Egypt, and especially Anwar Sadat, for recognizing Israel, and is why later on, he was assassinated.
I havnt had as much Muslim friends/exposure for quite awhile, and I believe many Muslims are having their religion hijacked by many that are poor and easily upset, to the point of jihad, by some who want nothing more than power.
Is this as you or other Muslims see it as well?

I'm not sure what you are pointing at, but I'll take a shot. The Iran-Iraq War was basically over power. Power is a worldly thing, and for Muslims to kill Muslims over that, to hell with both sides. Same goes for Muslims fighting others. I believe Muslims should recognize Israel as a nation. Israel is seeing the Muslim nations as hostile ATM. I believe those nations should be an example of what Muslims are, or at least not be so corrupt. Expose them to what Islam is, basically.

 

[AbdullahG]

Not truly knowing the difference between the Shia beliefs and the Sunni beliefs, I know of Ali, but not the differences

Main differences between Shias and Sunnis:

-Shias deny the hadiths (collection of what the Prophet said coming from his, and what Muslims should practice). This causes differences in terms of prayer, worship, fasting, etc.

-Shias consider Ali as a Prophet. I'm not sure if ALL of them do, but this is said quite often to be a difference. After Muhammad, the Prophet-hood was sealed.

This is all I know ATM.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I'm not sure what you are pointing at, but I'll take a shot. The Iran-Iraq War was basically over power. Power is a worldly thing, and for Muslims to kill Muslims over that, to hell with both sides. Same goes for Muslims fighting others. I believe Muslims should recognize Israel as a nation. Israel is seeing the Muslim nations as hostile ATM. I believe those nations should be an example of what Muslims are, or at least not be so corrupt. Expose them to what Islam is, basically.

To hell with both sides, sort of sums up my friends attitude as well, especially living thru that war.
My other point was, theres alot of poor Muslim people, and like we see in Greece etc, some people are using them for their gain.
Those other people are more interested in power, not truth, and Im asking, is this also the way you see it?

 

[AbdullahG]

To hell with both sides, sort of sums up my friends attitude as well, especially living thru that war.
My other point was, theres alot of poor Muslim people, and like we see in Greece etc, some people are using them for their gain.
Those other people are more interested in power, not truth, and Im asking, is this also the way you see it?

My view is, regardless of financial status, it seems some Muslims are after power, rather than love, knowledge, truth, and faith. If the Muslims of Greece are doing this, they are deviating from Islam, or from being human, better yet. So yes, that is how I see it.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Its not Muslims of Greece, its just poor and or promises broken, higher demands with little reward, and those people are being hijacked into possibly communism, or losing their entire countries structure.
Its like all people, and not just a reference to Muslims, as my reference wasnt pointed at Muslims.
In the end, we are all children of God, its just some dont know it

 

[AbdullahG]

Its not Muslims of Greece, its just poor and or promises broken, higher demands with little reward, and those people are being hijacked into possibly communism, or losing their entire countries structure.
Its like all people, and not just a reference to Muslims, as my reference wasnt pointed at Muslims.
In the end, we are all children of God, its just some dont know it

Oh, thank's for clarifying that. Great point, honestly. Thing is, being poor, receiving little, and everything alike, is our test. It's to determine whether we will accept what we have, and to appreciate it, regardless of how difficult life can be and what we expect to receive. It's at these times where we rely on ourselves, make use of what we have, and add to it through our own freedom and choice. Not everything is determined by God. Our decisions, choices, and our own thinking play a part. Some take the most reasonable path, other's resort to inhumane measures.

 

[AbdullahG]

You seem to equate Christianity with the Holy Roman Catholic Empire/Church. This is a mistake and I will counter with this.


"Early Christians went everywhere with the gospel, setting up small churches, but they met heavy opposition. Both the Jews and the Roman government persecuted the believers in Christ to stop their spread.

But the Jews rebelled against Rome, and in 70 A.D. Roman armies under General Titus smashed Jerusalem and destroyed the great Jewish temple which was the heart of Jewish worship—in fulfillment of Christ’s prophecy in Matthew 24:2. On this holy place, where the temple once stood, the Dome of the Rock Mosque stands today as Islam’s second most holy place.

Sweeping changes were in the wind. Corruption, apathy, greed, cruelty, perversion, and rebellion were eating at the Roman Empire, and it was ready to collapse. The persecution against Christians was useless, as they continued to lay down their lives for the gospel of Christ.

The only way Satan could stop this thrust was to create a counterfeit “Christian” religion to destroy the work of God. The solution was in Rome. Their religion had come from ancient Babylon, and all it needed was a face-lift. This didn’t happen overnight, but began in the writings of the “early church fathers”.

It was through their writings that a new religion would take shape. The statue of Jupiter in Rome was eventually called St. Peter, and the statue of Venus was changed to the Virgin Mary. The site chosen for its headquarters was on one of the seven hills called “Vaticanus”—the place of diving serpent where the satanic Temple of Janus stood.

The great counterfeit religion was Roman Catholicism, called “Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth” (Revelation 17:5). She was raised up to block the gospel, slaughter the believers in Christ, establish religions, create wars, and make the nations drunk with the wine of her fornication as we will see.

Three major religions have one thing in common—each has a holy place where they look for guidance. Roman Catholicism looks to the Vatican as the Holy City. The Jews look to the wailing wall in Jerusalem, and the Muslims look to Mecca as their Holy City.

Each group believes that they receive certain types of blessings for the rest of their lives for visiting their holy place.

In the beginning, Arab visitors would bring gifts to the “House of God" and the keepers of the Kaaba were gracious to all who came. Some brought their idols and, not wanting to offend these people, their idols were placed inside the sanctuary. It is said that the Jews looked upon the Kaaba as an outlying tabernacle of the Lord, with veneration until it became polluted with idols.

In a tribal contention over a well (Zamzam) the treasure of the Kaaba and the offerings that pilgrims had given were dumped down the well and it was filled with sand; it disappeared. Many years later Adb al-Muttalib was given visions telling him where to find the well and its treasure. He became the hero of Mecca, and he was destined to become the grandfather of Muhammad.

Before this time, Augustine became the bishop of North Africa and was effective in winning Arabs to Roman Catholicism, including whole tribes. It was among these Arab converts to Catholicism that the concept of looking for an Arab prophet developed.

Muhammad’s father died from illness, and sons born to great Arab families in places like Mecca were sent into the desert to be suckled and weaned and spend some of their childhood with Bedouin tribes for training and to avoid the plagues in the cities.

After his mother and grandfather also died, Muhammad was with his uncle when a Roman Catholic monk learned of his identity and said:

“Take your brother’s son back to his country and guard him against the Jews, for by God, if they see him and know of him that which I know, they will construe evil against him. Great things are in store for this brother’s son of yours.”

The Roman Catholic monk had fanned the flames for future Jewish persecutions at the hands of the followers of Muhammad. The Vatican desperately wanted Jerusalem because of its religious significance, but was blocked by the Jews.

Another problem was the true Christians in North Africa who preached the gospel. Roman Catholicism was growing in power, but would not tolerate opposition. Somehow the Vatican had to create a weapon to eliminate both the Jews and the true Christian believers who refused to accept Roman Catholicism. Looking to North Africa, they saw the multitudes of Arabs as a source of manpower to do their dirty work.

Some Arabs had become Roman Catholic, and could be used in reporting information to leaders in Rome. Others were used in an underground spy network to carry out Rome’s master plan to control the great multitudes of Arabs who rejected Catholicism.

When “St. Augustine” appeared on the scene, he knew what was going on. His monasteries served as bases to seek out and destroy Bible manuscripts owned by the true Christians.

The Vatican wanted to create a messiah for the Arabs, someone they could raise up as a great leader, a man with charisma whom they could train, and eventually unite all the non-Catholic Arabs behind him, creating a mighty army that would ultimately capture Jerusalem for the pope.

In the Vatican briefing, Cardinal Bea told us this story:

A wealthy Arabian lady who was a faithful follower of the pope played a tremendous part in this drama. She was a widow named Khadijah. She gave her wealth to the church and retired to a convent, but was given an assignment.


She was to find a brilliant young man who could be used by the Vatican to create a new religion and become the messiah for the children of Ishmael.


Khadijah had a cousin named Waraquah, who was also a very faithful Roman Catholic, and the Vatican placed him in a critical role as Muhammad’s advisor. He had tremendous influence on Muhammad.


Teachers were sent to young Muhammad and he had intensive training. Muhammad studied the works of St. Augustine, which prepared him for his “great calling”. The Vatican had Catholic Arabs across North Africa spread the story of a great one who was about to rise up among the people and be the chosen one of their God.


While Muhammad was being prepared, he was told that his enemies were the Jews and that the only true Christians were Roman Catholic. He was taught that others calling themselves Christians were actually wicked impostors and should be destroyed. Many Muslims believe this.


Muhammad began receiving “divine revelations” and his wife’s Catholic cousin Waraquah helped interpret them. From this came the Koran. In the fifth year of Muhammad’s mission, persecution came against his followers because they refused to worship the idols in the Kaaba.


Muhammad instructed some of them to flee to Abysinnia, where Negus, the Roman Catholic king, accepted them because Muhammad’s views on the virgin Mary were so close to Roman Catholic doctrine. These Muslims received protection from Catholic kings because of Muhammad’s revelations.


Muhammad later conquered Mecca and the Kaaba was cleared of idols.


History proves that before Islam came into existence, the Sabeans in Arabia worshiped the moon-god who was married to the sun-god. They gave birth to three goddesses, who were worshipped throughout the Arab world as “Daughters of Allah”. An idol excavated at Hazor in Palestine in the 1950s shows Allah sitting on a throne with the crescent moon on his chest.


Muhammad claimed he had a vision from Allah and was told:

“You are the messenger of Allah.”

This began his career as a prophet and he received many messages. By the time Muhammad died, the religion of Islam was exploding. The nomadic Arab tribes were joining forces in the name of Allah and his prophet, Muhammad.


Some of Muhammad’s writings were placed in the Koran, others were never published. They are now in the hands of high ranking holy men (Ayatollahs) in the Islamic faith."

When Cardinal Bea shared this information with us in the Vatican, he said:

“These writings are guarded because they contain information that links the Vatican to the creation of Islam.”

Both sides have so much information on each other that, if exposed, it could create such a scandal that it would be a disaster for both religions. In their “holy” book, the Koran, Christ is regarded as only a prophet. If the pope was his representative on Earth, then he also must be a prophet of God. This caused the followers of Muhammad to fear and respect the pope as another “holy man”.


The pope moved quickly and issued bulls granting the Arab generals permission to invade and conquer the nations of North Africa.


The Vatican helped to finance the building of these massive Islamic armies in exchange for three favors:

1. Eliminate the Jews and Christians (the latter were regarded as true believers, which they called infidels)

2. Protect the Augustinian monks and Roman Catholics

3. Conquer Jerusalem for “His Holiness” in the Vatican

As time went by, the power of Islam became tremendous—Jews and true Christians were slaughtered, and Jerusalem fell into their hands. Roman Catholics were never attacked, nor were their shrines, during this time. But when the pope asked for Jerusalem, he was surprised at their denial!


The Arab generals had such military success that they could not be intimidated by the pope—nothing could stand in the way of their own plan.


Under Waraquah’s direction, Muhammad wrote that Abraham offered Ishmael as a sacrifice. The Bible says that Isaac was the sacrifice, but Muhammad removed Isaac’s name and inserted Ishmael’s name. As a result of this and Muhammad’s vision, the faithful Muslims built a mosque, the Dome of the Rock, in Ishmael’s honor, on the site of the Jewish temple that was destroyed in 70 A.D. This made Jerusalem the second most holy place in the Islamic faith.

How could they give such a sacred shrine to the pope without causing a revolt?

The pope realized what they had created was out of control when he heard they were calling “His Holiness” an infidel. The Muslim generals were determined to conquer the world for Allah, and now they turned toward Europe.

Islamic ambassadors approached the pope and asked for papal bulls to give them permission to invade European countries. The Vatican was outraged; war was inevitable. Temporal power and control of the world was considered the basic right of the pope. He wouldn’t think of sharing it with those whom he considered heathens.

The pope raised up his armies and called them “crusades” to hold back the children of Ishmael from grabbing Catholic Europe. The crusades lasted for centuries and Jerusalem slipped out of the pope’s hands. Turkey fell, and Spain and Portugal were invaded by Islamic forces. In Portugal, they called a mountain village “Fatima” in honor of Muhammad’s daughter, never dreaming it would become world famous.

Years later, when the Muslim armies were poised on the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, to invade Italy, there was a serious problem. The Islamic generals realized they were too far extended. It was time for peace talks. One of the negotiators was Francis of Assisi. As a result, the Muslims were allowed to occupy Turkey in a “Christian” world, and the Catholics were allowed to occupy Lebanon in the Arab world. It was also agreed that the Muslims could build mosques in Catholic countries without interference, as long as Roman Catholicism could flourish in Arab countries.

Cardinal Bea told us in Vatican briefings that both the Muslims and Roman Catholics agreed to block and destroy the efforts of their common enemy: Bible-believing Christian missionaries. Through these concordats, Satan blocked the children of Ishmael from a knowledge of scripture and the truth.

The Islamic community looks on the Bible-believing missionary as a devil who brings poison to the children of Allah. This explains years of ministry in those countries with little results.

The Vatican also engineers a campaign of hatred between the Muslim Arabs and the Jews. Before this, they had co-existed peacefully. A light control was kept on Muslims— from the Ayatollah, down through the Islamic priests, nuns, and monks.

The next plan was to control Islam. In 1910, Portugal was going Socialistic. Red flags were appearing and the Catholic Church was facing a major problem. Increasing numbers were against the Church.

The Jesuits wanted Russia involved, and the location of this vision at Fatima could play a key part in pulling Islam to the Mother Church. In 1917, the Virgin appeared in Fatima. “The Mother of God” was a smashing success, playing to overflow crowds. As a result, the Socialists of Portugal suffered a major defeat.

Roman Catholics worldwide began praying for the conversion of Russia, and the Jesuits invented the novenas to Fatima, which they could perform throughout North Africa, spreading good public relations to the Muslim world. The Arabs thought they were honoring the daughter of Muhammad, which is what the Jesuits wanted them to believe.

As a result of the vision of Fatima, Pope Pius XII ordered his Nazi army to crush Russia and the Orthodox religion, and make Russia Roman Catholic. A few years after he lost World War II, Pope Pius XII startled the world with his phony “dancing Sun” vision to keep Fatima in the news. It was great religious show biz and the world swallowed it. Not surprisingly, Pope Pius was the only one to see this vision.

As a result, a group of followers has grown into a Blue Army worldwide, totaling millions of faithful Roman Catholics ready to die for the Blessed Virgin. But we haven’t seen anything yet. The Jesuits have their Virgin Mary scheduled to appear four or five times in China, Russia, and major appearance in the U.S.


What has this got to do with Islam?


Note Bishop Sheen’s statement:

“Our Lady’s appearances at Fatima marked the turning point in the history of the world’s 350 million Muslims. After the death of his daughter, Muhammad wrote that she ‘is the most holy of all women in Paradise, next to Mary.’ He believed that the Virgin Mary chose to be known as Our Lady of Fatima as a sign and a pledge that the Muslims who believe in Christ’s virgin birth, will come to believe in his divinity.”

Bishop Sheen pointed out that the pilgrim virgin statues of Our Lady of Fatima were enthusiastically received by Muslims in Africa, India, and elsewhere, and that many Muslims are now coming into the Roman Catholic Church.


DR. ALBERTO RIVERA

1988

Interesting read. I'm still unclear of what you are trying to point at. I now understand how Catholics differ from Christians, but I'm unsure if that's what your trying to get across my mind. My apologies with equating Christianity with the Roman Catholic Church. Although I have many Catholic friends, none have explained to my how Catholics differ from Christians, or at least what the terms refer to.

 

[AbdullahG]

Basically, Islam was a creation of the Vatican and the Holy Roman Empire/Church.

And from what sources has the author received his information from? Alberto Rivera is anti-Catholic and a conspiracy theorist of the Vatican. He claimed that he was tortured for denouncing the Catholic Church in public. Plus, his record isn't so clean. You'd expect something from a man like him. I wouldn't believe a man with radical ideas.

 

[Reynod]

Reynod,

So your logic is if you offend two groups of people its ok? lol if you say so.

BTW I don't think many Christians at all would be offended by the picture. Even if they are Creationists the believe the dinosaurs perished in the flood or even before so Jesus riding a T-Rex doesn't really impinge on any Christian beliefs.

I think we pay too much attention to what offends people. Tolerance is the greatest (and only virtue) for many Westerners. Now, while all people are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect (tolerance) not all ideas or beliefs are worthy of that same respect. Too bad so many people can't tell the difference.

Hey ... I was going for the humour angle so people would be less likely to get angry.

Personally I don't believe in god ... but whatever floats your boat is fine with me just as long as you don't go "Waco" on anyone.

I do think Christians have a high tolerance for criticism about their religious beliefs and I have a lot of respect for anyone like that.

As a kid I knew our local Bishop and he was involved with the football ... he called me a "little heathen" when I got into fights or didn't listen at training but did it with a grin.

I still looked in the air after to see there were no clouds forming as I was pretty scared of lightning.

 

[AbdullahG]

Hey ... I was going for the humour angle so people would be less likely to get angry.

Personally I don't believe in god ... but whatever floats your boat is fine with me just as long as you don't go "Waco" on anyone.

I do think Christians have a high tolerance for criticism about their religious beliefs and I have a lot of respect for anyone like that.

As a kid I knew our local Bishop and he was involved with the football ... he called me a "little heathen" when I got into fights or didn't listen at training but did it with a grin.

I still looked in the air after to see there were no clouds forming as I was pretty scared of lightning.

I'm naturally afraid of lightning, so every time I walk to school and there are storm clouds forming, I run...

Humor in most forms is a good thing. I personally found that picture pretty funny. I don't let small things bug me too much.
If ignorance is involved, then I counter it with intelligence. If it's stupidity or idiocy, I counter it with humor.

Example:

"Yo I heard yo kind rides camels, sand freak."

"Bro I don't know what your talking about. Where I come from, we ride elephants. Get your facts straight!"

 

[Pyree]

Example:

"Yo I heard yo kind rides camels, sand freak."

"Bro I don't know what your talking about. Where I come from, we ride elephants. Get your facts straight!"

I don't have a religion. I found that believers from every religion or even non-religious people varies in tolerating what is offensive and what is funny.

I have Muslim friends laughed at that suicide bombing game on newsground.com (I think it was on there, can't remember where exactly it is). Of course I don't think every Muslim is a terrorist. That is just plain stupid

On the other hand, my aunt and uncle (Protestant I think) and my grandma who is a hardcore conservative Buddhist couldn't be anymore serious.

There are non-religious people who can't take people criticising science or telling them about religion. Ironic isn't it? Considering science is open to and thrive on criticism.

Now, just lets forget about religion, race, nationality, etc and watch a bit of relaxing and fun video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCgx8zM3woQ

Apparently I am a crazy driver (Ok, I am sometimes) and a redneck on the outback.

 

[imran_t]

gropouce
OT here, but showing how far left of center the media is here in the US
If this were any other religious group, itd be OK
http://sheckymagazine.com/2011/11/solidarite-avec-charlie-hebdo/

Im not condoning anything like this at all, but deciding how one reacts to insults as to how to respond is way too far out there, as anything concerning religion is very personal, and if one forgives while another hits back, its a lousy excuse to derive your opinion, such as Time magazine did
Sorry for the OT

I looked up several references, about Isaac and Ismael, from differing persepctives, but whats interesting is, all show that they come from the same family, as down the road, one was Jewish, the other Muslim as the family lineage played out

Nice thread, I'll help as well.

To believe in Islam is to love the Prophet Muhammad the most (after God ofcourse). So when someone insults him, it really touches a nerve 🙁

Having said the same thing happened in the life of the Prophet Muhammad. He was insulted and persecuted because the message he was spreading was one that conflicted with the beliefs of the Arabs and their forefathers. And God told him in the Qur'an to ignore these people, have patience and persevere through it so people should do the same.


Abraham prayed to God to bless his sons and God promised him two great nations from his offspring. Judaism from Isaac and Islam for Ismael.

 

[gropouce]

Jaydee thank you, it was instructive.

Here are the POV of Malek Chebel, Algerian anthropologist who translated the Koran in Arabic to French.

Q: Have you read this issue of "Charlie Hebdo" and what do you think?
A: Yes, I saw it and take a point of comparison, it is much less offensive than the cartoons of Muhammad that had caused a scandal in 2006. They were a mix between the Prophet and terrorism. In the case of "Sharia Hebdo" is to ridicule, simply, is not the same degree.

Q: But it's still offensive to Muslims?
A: Basis muslims believe that everything related to God, the Prophet and the Koran is a sacred matter, without nuance or distingo possible. But the first blasphemy for Muslims, is not so much to represent the Prophet, but to say that God is not the only God. And in the Qur'an, it is never said that the Prophet should not be represented, but as the text dates from the seventh century is all about interpretation. A liberal school will consider the representation does not matter where traditionalists consider it a major prohibition.

Q: Is Islam compatible with freedom of expression?
A: Absolutely. Islam considers that apart from the direct offense against people, everyone can do what he wants because he is responsible for his actions to his own conscience and the conscience of those who consider him. Islam is a matter of faith and belief in a God that goes beyond the people harassment. Someone who wants to offend Islam only offended himself. God is so above it all!

 

[AbdullahG]

Nice thread, I'll help as well.

To believe in Islam is to love the Prophet Muhammad the most (after God ofcourse). So when someone insults him, it really touches a nerve 🙁

Having said the same thing happened in the life of the Prophet Muhammad. He was insulted and persecuted because the message he was spreading was one that conflicted with the beliefs of the Arabs and their forefathers. And God told him in the Qur'an to ignore these people, have patience and persevere through it so people should do the same.


Abraham prayed to God to bless his sons and God promised him two great nations from his offspring. Judaism from Isaac and Islam for Ismael.

I like how you put it that way. It sounds nice.

We love all the Prophets as much as Muhammad, but it's just that Muhammad had such a huge impact.

@oldmangamer
Understandable. Honestly, at first I thought the narrative was a man with deep thought and did extensive research on the history of Islam. I tend to look at who wrote it after reading it, or vice versa. I believe some atheists or skeptics tend to make great points. They seem well thought out, but I only listen to them if they don't have a criminal history. Eveyone has their point of view of religion or of a certain religion (it should be supported, of course). The hard part is accepting it.