Xbox 720: 6x Performance Increase, Kinect 2, 3D, 1080p

[bigdog44]

I think that improving overall systemic latency, if addressed, will make the experience much more enjoyable. When AI, movement, etc. are more fluid and natural it makes the game much more immersive and the graphics seem to shine even more. Each level of data/instruction further away from the core execution/compute units we go and the more freqently we have to go there, the greater the chance of experiencing a "hiccup" in the game reality. Some areas for improvement:
*A large eDRAM used as a shared space for the compute units and buffers.
*Kinect 2 with the resolution and throughput needed to be truly effective.
*Controllers with upgraded irDA and (here's the wishlist item) force input sensing for buttons/triggers/direction pad on an almost smooth surface (similar to grip pressure sensing).

As a side-note, the more responsive the system is overall, the less the GPU has to produce unneccessary frames, which would allow for a "lighter weight" GPU to get to a desired output level.

 

[sonofhendrix]

Sounds like backwards compatability will be a pain for them. Having to put the old CPU cores in the system?? wth!
Im wondering if it would be easier for them to emulate the entire xbox360 in software using their new CPU and CUDA/direct compute on the new GPU. would certainly save on product cost and power/heat. It would be monumentally difficult programming wise, but perhaps they could release titles bit by bit as they perfect the emulator.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]sonofhendrix[/nom]Sounds like backwards compatability will be a pain for them. Having to put the old CPU cores in the system?? wth!Im wondering if it would be easier for them to emulate the entire xbox360 in software using their new CPU and CUDA/direct compute on the new GPU. would certainly save on product cost and power/heat. It would be monumentally difficult programming wise, but perhaps they could release titles bit by bit as they perfect the emulator.[/citation]

I'm not an expert on emulation, but I do know that it can have huge performance penalties. If the next Xbox is only 6 times faster than the 360 overall, then it might not be fast enough to emulate it reasonably. Emulation can also be a tricky and complicated business. Including a updated version of the old CPU (and presumably the old GPU) should actually make it much easier to code for, although it would increase the cost of manufacturing somewhat. However, I don't think that it would be a big difference, especially if the legacy CPU is a die shrink down to current processes and has some other power efficiency improvements. So long as it is completely off when it is not needed, it shouldn't be increasing power consumption and heat generation except for when it is needed to play games and in that case, the new CPU and GPU could be turned down a notch since they shouldn't need to be in much use (if at all) when playing legacy games.

I'd also like to leave CUDA out of it and if these consoles are going to use AMD GPUs, well then CUDA isn't an option anyway. We have OpenCL/GL and direct compute to choose from and I think that these are plenty so long as Nvidia has support for one or the other (preferably both) and I'm pretty sure that Nvidia already supports both on at least some of their cards.

As for the emulator, it would be less power efficient and far more complex than just having a legacy supporting CPU that is based off of the old CPU. I think that if it's true that this is how MS will deal with compatibility, MS took what might be the best option for both MS and their customers. This way would probably not increase cost of manufacturing much (or more properly, bill of materials if I remember correctly), would probably be much easier to code for, would probably support all games that the 360 supports immediately, and the extra CPU/GPU could even be used for other things when it's not being used to play a legacy game.

Granted, their are some potential advantages for emulation with somewhat modded versions of the games (such as the potential to increase resolution and/or quality in some other ways, such as making the games able to run in DX11 and other possible improvements), but these potential advancements would probably not be done (or at least done with many games) and I don't think that the pros would outweigh the cons in this case. It could be done and it could be done even better if MS made sure that the new hardware was specifically optimized for emulation and other virtualization technology, but I think that it would take a huge amount of work on MS's part and that doesn't seem like something that they'd be interested in doing, let alone doing properly. This is the company who gave up on Zune (among other potentially huge products) and makes some of the most bloated OSs and software in the industry right now despite the fact that they could have done much better. Would you trust MS with such an undertaking? I wouldn't.

 

[Guest]

Six times more powerful....mmmm....guess thats the equivalent of q6600+8800gs on pc...well at least they will finally play some games at full hdtv resolutions....

 

[bigdog44]

[citation][nom]if_that_is_whatyoucallhd[/nom]Six times more powerful....mmmm....guess thats the equivalent of q6600+8800gs on pc...well at least they will finally play some games at full hdtv resolutions....[/citation]

You're kidding right...
Your Q6600 compared to the current xbox360 cpu would be a little better in AI and physics, but far worse in other operations.
The 8800gs would only be abt 2x as powerful at higher resolutions than the current xenos .

 

[bigdog44]

Also, everyone please quit referencing the HD6670 as the gpu for the next xbox.
Its only roughly 3x as powerful if that.

 

[TheProudNoob]

I still want the leap...

 

[nottheking]

The amusing thing is that if they go with ARM, the 720 would not be able to play 360 games; even if there was perfect emulation, I honestly doubt that a 2.0 GHZ 8-core ARM would be more powerful than the Xenon's 3 PPC cores @3.2 GHz. Most people are forgetting that ARM has abysmal performance-per-clock compared to any modern CPU.

Of course, this alone kinda flags the "leak" as utterly useless garbage; anyone who actually KNOWS CPUs knows that ARM is strictly 32-bit only; we're likely years from seeing a 64-bit version, which would NOT be in time to properly design a console around it. (consoles have needed years of special development on the CPU) That'd leave it with plain ARM and its crippling 4GB address limit. Given the nature of console memory systems, this would allow for 2 GB of total memory at most. IT's possible an ARM CPU might show up in the console; after all, the Wii has one, and one in the 720 would take the same role: a CPU designed purely for OS functions, that runs in the background, chiefly allowing the console to go into a similar "sleep" mode. (the Xbox 360 has a similar less-efficient sleep mode through downclocking its CPU; this is what allows it to continue downloads while "off" and to be able to communicate with wireless controllers)

Furthermore, it's kind of absurd to think that Microsoft would stretch to include hardware software compatability for their prior console; we saw how well THAT turned out with the PS3, and Microsoft clearly isn't as foolish enough to repeat Sony's blunder. If there's a significant architectural difference, BC will be handled as with the Xbox 360, in software.

All told, this article is just more fodder for hype. Microsoft likely had it removed because it was so woefully inaccurate.

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]You don't know Moore's law very well... FYI, it's constantly slowing down. It hit every two years quite a while ago.[/citation]
Actually, Moore HIMSELF corrected his predictions; he started by saying it was every 12 months in 1965, but revised it to 18 months in 1970, then 24 months in 1975. An actual look at the trendline notes that this last revision has remained pretty solidly true for the 37 years since, though of course, eventually it, too, will fail. (though he actually predicted it'd fail by something like 1990 anyway)

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]My bad, Xbox 360 does this, but PS3 doesn't. Regardless, it is not feasible at this time. Graphics memory has very high latency compared to system RAM and that would likely be unworkable with a much faster processor than the Xbox 360's Xenon. XDR/XDR2 could undoubtedly do it, but not regular graphics RAM anymore.[/citation]
Actually, it doesn't make that much of a difference; again, "faster" is relative. The Xenon was rather fast when it came out, yet had no issue in using GDDR3 for its system memory. Similarly, GDDR5 shouldn't be much of an issue for the 720's CPU.

Keep in mind that an architecture that keeps a tight link between the CPU and the memory controller can handle this; much of the talk of latency issues with RAM was more back to the days of DDR2 vs. DDR1, when existing Pentium 4 and Core 2 CPUs of the time lacked an integrated memory controller, allowing RAM latency to be a huge performance issue.

[citation][nom]spookyman[/nom]I want to know if it will come with the famous Red Ring of Death?[/citation]
This will depend on their motherboard & cooler design. The issue that causes this relates to PCB warping due to heat and the load points of the cooler; this wound up being an issue with other things as well, notably some G80/G92 video cards with their reference cooler designs.

 

[seinfeld]

and its going to run windows 8, AND that means I can plug forza version 6 or 8 when it comes out and play it on a PC instead of an XBOX. HOW COOL IS THAT ?

 

[Guest]

The fact is says Blu-Ray compatibility lets you know this doc is useless. MS won't ship one because a. Discs are in decline, b. Anyone who has the discs already has a player, c. They're legally barred from shipping Java which Blu-Ray requires, d. They don't want people consuming content they're not getting a cut off to pay off the hardware subsidy.

 

[spat55]

[citation][nom]TheBigTroll[/nom]this aint pc bro. xbox cant draw more than 100w from the wall or else they run into heat problems.[/citation]

Very true, I will buy myself a PS4, as even though I haven't played my PS3 hardly since I have had my PC, it is great for games that don't arrive for PC and or games like fifa's Ultimate Team that have lower prices on PS3.

I do hope my electric bill isn't to expensive since I have got this PC though! Think it draws around 400w

 

[Guest]

Bottom line. Microsoft must position the new xbox to be a meda centric device. This document, if true, indicates Microsoft may have its act together. If they can put a device together that plays all type of media, is easy to use, powerfull, and most importantly, is a developers dream, then they are on the right track. Windows 8 supports a move in this direction as well. I think Microsoft may shake things up next year.

 

[clonazepam]

[citation][nom]aggroboy[/nom]PC is a nice gaming platform. But PC enthusiasts need to have some perspective. Think about the release of Xbox 360 way back in 2005. What 2005 PC can play today's games?[/citation]

That's how I justify my purchase of the Xbox 360 back in November of 2005. My PC for gaming at that time was a laptop wielding the mobile AMD Athlon 64 4000+ with integrated mobility X600, 1280x800 display, 2GB RAM, and a 100GB IDE 5400rpm HDD.

Xbox 360 totally smoked that thing when gaming. As I write this, I am compelled to mention that laptop still "works" for the basics like e-mail and Facebook. The xbox 360 works too but its the 3rd one I've had due to warranty replacements. It also sports a replacement dvd drive because it died all by itself, no intervention from me at all. I swear.

The success of the new xbox will hinge on its ability to be all things for all people, while completely closed, very green, and looking sexy without taking up too much shelf space. They should definitely make cables long enough (peripherals) so a person can split them up between shelves.