AMD Confirms Radeon HD 8000 Delay

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]So AMD will have to delay the launch of the 8k series to enhance its performance due to Nvidias titan by the looks, guess no one was expecting the sudden 100% increase in single GPU card performance (IF the benchmarks are true, with huge emphasis on IF!)[/citation]

Titan has nothing to do with the delay and pretty much everyone saw it coming at one point or another.

 

[tomfreak]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]Actually, with current drivers, the 7770 is faster than the 6850. The 6850s are also not being manufactured anymore AFAIK and current remaining stock's prices shouldn't have much to do with manufacturing cost, but how low they have to go to get rid of them while still making money. Also, like Sakkura said, I don't see 6850s averaging anywhere near $100 whereas I find several 7770s around $100-110 at any given time.[/citation]for the past weeks the 6850 is selling below $100 for the last remaining items at least @ my area. Those are pretty good deal. Without the 8000 series, we will not get 7770 @ rock bottom price. Given the simplicity of 7770 GPU, this thing should have room drop further. The reason why I didnt grab the 6850 is about of high power consumption + old VLIW5 architecture. future Driver optimization will be base on GCN. VLIW5 vs GCN is a huge diff in architecture. I dont think I want to get stuck with the old thing for the next 3-4yrs.

I actually begin to wonder do we have a duopoly here. Because all 7000 series + Kepler are more expensive than their predecessor 2yrs ago.

 

[jessterman21]

Shoot, with the simplicity of the GK104 chip, they should be selling at $200-300... Tiny chip with not much compute perf.

 

[somebodyspecial]

@ Sakkura "The 7970 only gave a 37 FPS average in Far Cry 3 @ Ultra 1920x1080. Crysis 3 is on the way."

You must be looking at early benchmarks. Since then the game got more patches and AMD/NV released newer drivers that improved performance. HD7970GE hits almost 40 fps at 2560x1600 Ultra with HDAO in FC3:
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2012/12/17/far_cry_3_video_card_performance_iq_review/4#.URabF6VZUeo

At 1080P, 45 fps with 4xMSAA and 68 fps without MSAA.
http://gamegpu.ru/images/stories/Test_GPU/Action/Far%20Cry%203%20v.%201.0.2/fc3%201920%20ss%204x.png

http://gamegpu.ru/images/stories/Test_GPU/Action/Far%20Cry%203%20v.%201.0.2/fc3%201920%20ss.png

Crysis 3 has a nearly 35% performance hit with 4xMSAA due to the engine using a deferred lighting path model. Drop down to 2x SMAA (medium) and you get 55-60 fps on an 1100mhz HD7970 with superior IQ. Also, for many people it's not worth it to spend $500 to upgrade from GTX680/7970 just to go from 0AA to 4AA. People tend to want much more significant increases if they are spending $500 for an upgrade.

@ hasten "Try again. $400 in the US (us.ncix.com). Canadian does not matter to most of us."

$350 XFX 7970 with Bioshock Infinite and Crysis 3:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3242918&CatId=7387

@ ojas "Nvidia's official road-map...Kepler for 2011 and Maxwell for 2013."

Incorrect. Nvidia has long clarified that Kepler was for 2012 and Maxwell for 2014. This was from their own slide decks before Kepler even launched last year. The rumors of Kepler for 2011 and Maxwell for 2013 go back to 2010 before Fermi launched. You are way behind on the data.

http://i.imgur.com/uYIe8.jpg

@ bit-user "I think a more likely explanation is that AMD knows their lineup won't stand up well to the next generation of Keplers, so they went back to the drawing board to squeeze a little more performance of their GCN2's."

Except GTX700 is also rumored to be pushed back to Q3-4 2013 based on similar sources (Sweclockers, Videocardz, etc.). Since HD7970GE is already 10%+ faster than GTX680, even if GK114 is 25% faster than GTX680, that would only make it 14% faster than HD7970GE. If GK114 launches at $499, AMD could just lower the price of HD7970GE to $349. They have bigger things to address like re-writing the memory management sub-system of all GCN parts, which in itself could improve performance/smoothness of their GPUs. Makes little sense to release HD8000 parts when their HD7000 parts are not even fully optimized by the drivers when HD8000 is based on the GCN 1.0 architecture. Might as well maximize performance from GCN 1.0 so that it translates into HD8000 series. AMD rushed HD7000 series to market and then spent 7-8 months optimizing it. Due to their drivers, the 7970 was initially noncompetitive at $550 with a $500 GTX680. The result was price drops. If they have the new driver that resolves memory management issues and gives HD8000 another 10% boost, they could launch a more competitive card at $499-549 and actually make $.

@ gurg "I made my decision and bought a higher performing Gigabyte 680 yesterday for my single monitor. Wanted a Gigabyte or XFX 7970 ghz"

Umm no. Gigabyte HD7970 Ghz is faster than a Gigabyte GTX680, considering it also ups the clocks to 1100mhz. Newegg has that card for $429.99 with no rebates:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125439

Moreso, Gigabyte HD7970Ghz is $379.99 on the Egg and it will max out at the same clocks as the Ghz edition since it's identical GPU. You can just flash the BIOS from the Ghz edition onto that card.

Then there is the Sapphire Vapor-X 7970 Ghz for $440 which is also faster than the GTX680 you bought:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202001

If you don't buy stuff online, it doesn't mean there aren't better deals to be had.

@nikoli707, "sorry to burst your bubbles but the msi lightning gtx 680 is the fastest single gaming gpu on the planet."

Nope. NCIX also pitted GTX680 Lightning against Asus Matrix HD7970 Platinum both OC to the max. The 680 Lightning lost:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJaoY0-kfk8

That's not even considering that HD7970GE dominates the 680 in multi-monitor gaming:
http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_geforce_gtx_680_4gb,6.html

Or in titles that use DirectCompute for graphical effects:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/his-iceq-x2-7970-7950-7850_11.html#sect5

HD7970GE also delivers superior FPS/smoothness compared to 680 in BF3 now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR3ewLMbywY

You cannot make a case that GTX680 Lightning is the single fastest GPU unless all you play is AC3, WOW, BL2 and Project CARS.

It's a bit laughable you pointing out multi-monitor gaming when the games are running in single digits. I call that a tie, when I'd never run there with EITHER card. Look at the games in your legionhardware link. Even at the lower res they used (just looking at alan wake) the top card on hits 40fps (avg...what's the min?). Upping the res only one card hits 19fps AVG. So 10fps min then?...LOL. You can't call a victory for ANY card when ALL cards are NOT able to play at the resolutions you're quoting as wins. Correct? Unfortunately I look at reviews like legion's as a waste of time. I'm only interested in MIN fps as that dictates my fun factor. Nice to have avg in there too, but without min fps the results don't mean much. Card X beats Card Y but both end in a slide show?

Your xbitlabs post shows many games hitting under 30fps min at 2560x1440 (never mind your Multi-monitor res link at far above this). I call no victory when a card can't hit 30fps min+. I call it unplayable on EITHER card if you can't hit above 30fps no matter which you're using or what you're playing.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/picture/?src=/images/graphics/his-iceq-x2-7970-7950-7850/zfulltable.png
Metro2033 & Crisis 2 don't even reach 20fps min at 2560x1440. So how can you claim it's faster when nobody in their right mind would play a game that will dip to 10fps? Actually it's UNDER 10 with AA on. If the 7970ghz iceq2 edition ($400 card) is hitting 9-10fps and NOT 30fps EVEN ON AVG why the heck would I play that game on that resolution, and realizing this who the heck cares who wins in a race at 10fps?...LOL. I call BS on your analysis. Even Sniper elite hits 25fps min on the 7970 and that's with NO AA. Turn on AA and the 7970ghz hits 9fps min...LOL. Yeah I like to play slide shows all day, it's so enjoyable. Even the avg with AA in sniper is only 20fps...ROFL. These cards are NOT meant for anything over 1920x1200 in all but a few games. I wish sites would just leave out any result where games hit under 30fps min. They mean nothing.

Only battlefield 3 and F1 2011 were playable (above 30fps min) on both cards with 2560x1440 AA ON. Every other game in the xbitlabs review hits below 20fps (most in the low teens) with AA on at 2560x1440. So the discussion is pointless on who won at this res as you can't play there. It's kind of like saying I can run faster than you off this 5000 foot cliff and I'll hit the dirt first! But the end result is we both die. So do either of us want to run off the cliff to prove the point? Is it any more fun for me if I win? NOPE. We're both dead still right? But I win, so neener neener neener...LOL. Who freaking cares? We both lose and can't play this game of running off the cliff right? It won't be any more fun for me than you and we'll both be dead...LOL. Do you get it?

Please refrain from quoting anything as winning if it can't do it at PLAYABLE 30 fps all day. The cards are fairly evenly matched depending on the game you play. I'm so sick of people claiming AMD is better when neither can play at 30fps where they claim AMD wins, or the usual (and also tired) saying that NV is bandwidth starved, when you have to run at a res where nobody can run to show it. It's extremely difficult to find a game where NV is bandwidth starved and AMD is over 30fps min. That's what I call PERFECT engineering on NV's part. The only places they hurt are situations that don't exist in game play with their cards.

"You cannot make a case that GTX680 Lightning is the single fastest GPU unless all you play is AC3, WOW, BL2 and Project CARS. "
Don't forget to add Diablo3, Starcraft2, Far Cry 3 (tie until you kick in the OC'ed NV's), COD Black Ops2 (and others I can't be bothered to look up)...It cuts both ways depending on the game. The list of losers for AMD is longer than you suggest here... and I'd say the ones they lose in are more popular to boot. For instance, who plays Sniper2 Elite? Scores 66 at metacritic (users hate it too) while something like borderlands 2 scores 89 with 1100 users rating it 8.1 (vs. 6.7 for sniper and only a 227 even rating it). I think 11mil still play WOW, 6 million bought D3 (not me, but still) etc...Sleeping dogs has half the users rating it on metacritic (500) vs. Borderlands, while starcraft 2 has 2100+ rating it....See my point? The games AMD seems to win in, have less interest from users. Metro2033 in the xbitlabs test hits 16fpsmin on 7970ghz iceq2 edition at 1920x1080! Is that really a win? That's with NO AA even. Turn AA on and you barely get out of single digits for min...LOL. Its UNDER 10fps for min above 1080p! You playing there? Again, I ask, you like slide shows? The avg was only 25fps for crying out loud. You can't play there! It's not a victory to win at 9fps min...ROFL. Have fun playing there pal.

I'd also remind you that the 7970ghz is using 55watts more than a GTX680 shown here:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_ares_ii_2_review,8.html
People seem to forget this. 228w is a lot higher than 173 correct? That's a LOT of heat in your room if your in a state like AZ as I am. It's also NOISY compared to NV cards (well duh, can't cool an extra 55w without at least some noise). So it costs more to run (50w bulbs aren't free last I checked), heats up more and is making more noise. That's 3 losses I don't like in any case.
In your own xbitlabs review you linked it's a 70w difference:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/his-iceq-x2-7970-7950-7850_8.html#sect1
OUCH. Worse than my example. 483w vs. 414 for gtx 680, heck even the 7950b ran 468w.
Also note that most people are benchmarking NV cards at REFERENCE clocks when comparing perf (like tom's, hardocp these days etc). I wouldn't touch a ref clocked NV card EVER. You can get another 100-150mhz for free OC'd out of the box. Why buy a 915/980 card (which everyone loves to bench vs. AMD's ghz editions....LOL) when Newegg offers 1033/111 (zotac amp) 1032/1111 (Gbyte) & 1046/1124 (evga) for the near the same prices ($279/289) in say 660Ti for example here? It's the same in all models. Who buys Ref Clocked NV's? What for? Note the fine print on all test setup pages at toms where they tell you they're using ref clocks. I still don't know why. There's a big difference between 915/980 and 1046/1124. Sites should be doing hardware reviews with what we BUY not ref clocks. We keep seeing benchmarks of ghz and boost editions of AMD's vs REF NV cards which is not real. I really wish NV would release their own ghz editions so this would stop. It is after all, the only cards you'd buy if buying NV unless you just purposely hate the extra 10-15% gain via the factory overclocked cards that have been there since debut. When you consider the OOBE with these cards you get other games being victories or at worst a lot more ties in many games. There is no clear victor for this generation. NV had the clear lead until ~oct and the 12.11 drivers from AMD came which made things pretty much a wash in most games (BL2 & D3 being exceptions for NV). Titan will change this no doubt but for very few people (who has ~$900 for a card? They could shock us with $400-500 but I doubt it).

Having said all that, I'd rather buy a card that uses less watts, heat, noise and is owning ~65% of the market and making 500mil last year vs. a company owning ~25% and losing 1.8Bil last year. It took AMD most of the year to catch NV via 12.11 drivers. That's either NV getting it right from the get go, or market share causing people to optimize for NV first in games.
Hardocp sums this up well here:
http://hardocp.com/article/2013/01/21/2012_nvidia_video_card_driver_performance_review/6
NV dominated most of the year with better drivers & game optimizations as games appeared. Meanwhile AMD has to give away games to keep from losing even more market share even now and still losing 1.8Bil. They'd better quit giving away games to get sales or this will just keep happening. I'm half glad they delayed their next cards, as they really can't afford to go toe to toe in R&D with NV (3.5B in cash w/no debt means you lose this war). They need to slow down and make some money off current R&D (milk the cow so to speak). Console sales may help this dynamic in 2014+ but only if they succeed, and I doubt this. Consoles are no longer alone (phones, tablets, ouya, Steambox, etc etc...the list is growing). Nv's own project shield brings your PC power to your TV. Then what do I need a console for? If my PC can be anywhere in the house and it's gpu can get a game on my TV a console is pointless for a lot of people. All the other devices mentioned will add up to a loss in console sales IMHO. It's simple math. This game is already over, we're simply watching AMD bleed to death. Unless they get bought, they'll continue to get weaker and weaker (first gave up the cpu race, now delaying gpu race - which no doubt will cause a msg next week from NV saying delay of maxwell as that's just good business to slow like Intel has with no competition pushing you). See the writing on the wall yet? AMD was the worst performing stock in the semi index last year. I don't see that changing this year.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2012/11/30/why-amds-stock-collapsed-and-how-it-can-recover/
The recovery scenario is a pipe dream. No arm chip until 2014 etc...Nothing to get a gpu gain, cpu's under attack from INTEL & ARM (many arm competitors entering server and even desktop cpu's shortly), this is getting more ugly by the minute. They are chasing the crowd instead of leading it. NV will have 5 revs of tegras under their belts by the time AMD debuts ARM1 (whatever they call it). Project Denver/Boulder will also be out attacking their cpu's (and NV isn't alone doing this). There is NO good AMD news on the horizon I'm afraid. AMD has to get bought or we'll all be paying NV $1000 for cards in 2014-2015. OUCH. I fear shortly $500 will be our mid-range again. That sucks. I hope they're still shopping their company via JP Morgan etc Sell or die.

 

[Novuake]

[citation][nom]Sakkura[/nom]The 7970 only gave a 37 FPS average in Far Cry 3 @ Ultra 1920x1080. Crysis 3 is on the way.[/citation]

LOL your kidding right? Far Cry 3 was HORRIBLY optimized as per usual in the franchise. Right now my HD7950 is waaaaayyyyy above that already, not to mention an HD7970.

So shhhh with your garbage.

 

[Sakkura]

for the past weeks the 6850 is selling below $100 for the last remaining items at least @ my area. Those are pretty good deal. Without the 8000 series, we will not get 7770 @ rock bottom price. Given the simplicity of 7770 GPU, this thing should have room drop further. The reason why I didnt grab the 6850 is about of high power consumption + old VLIW5 architecture. future Driver optimization will be base on GCN. VLIW5 vs GCN is a huge diff in architecture. I dont think I want to get stuck with the old thing for the next 3-4yrs.

I actually begin to wonder do we have a duopoly here. Because all 7000 series + Kepler are more expensive than their predecessor 2yrs ago.

That pricing is highly unusual then. Perhaps a local retailer clearing out old inventory.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]jessterman21[/nom]Shoot, with the simplicity of the GK104 chip, they should be selling at $200-300... Tiny chip with not much compute perf.[/citation]

GK104 is not a small chip. It isn't very large, but it's not small either. Also, it actually has a lot of single precision compute perfomrance. It's the dual-precision that it sucks in, not everything. The 79xx cards are much better even at single precision, but the GK104 is still an improvement in single precision over its predecessors, granted that it was a huge step back in dual precision.

 

[cobra5000]

"developing the 28 nm GPU that could be used in a next generation console, perhaps the PS4"? Like they haven't even picked out what graphics they are using for the ps4 yet? If the ps4 is coming out this fall, the graphics they are going to use have been picked out, long ago. This article is a joke!

 

[youssef 2010]

I guess I'll have to upgrade in 2014 unless Nvidia convinces me otherwise.

I have much respect for AMD. But brand loyalty means nothing to me. Price/Performance is all I'm searching for.

 

[tomfreak]

[citation][nom]Sakkura[/nom]That pricing is highly unusual then. Perhaps a local retailer clearing out old inventory.[/citation]thats what I have been doing all these years, all my GPU are from clearing inventory.

the Sapphire Distro in our country have been doing that since HD3000. I dont see any reason they gonna stop doing it for HD7000 when HD8000 come out. 2GB Radeon HD6950 was selling below $150 awhile ago. Can u imaging how ridiculously low is that lol

With delays of HD8000 I either have to pay up more early for 7700, or wait a year to get decent deal *probably could get 7850 @ $100 by then.

 

[ojas]

[citation][nom]A Bad Day[/nom]http://www.overclock.net/t/1358209 [...] t_19245105[/citation]
Why hasn't this Tom's article been updated so far? I mean, after A Bad Day's post...

 

[mamailo]

I think the main reason for the delay is than expanding the 7xxx dies or producing a never; bigger 8xxx design, is that Global Foundries will tape out the 20nm lines in Q4 2013.

It may be just a coincidence but in this industries; coincidences should not be believed.

 

[internetlad]

Just picked up a 7950 a couple weeks ago. Pretty happy with it so far. This isn't necesarilly bad news for me as i'm out of the market for a while, but still, hope they don't get stomped by NVIDIA because of the delay (although, I heard Nvidia had delays as well.)

 

[coolronz]

other than needing more RAM for my HD6950 1GB crossfire setup for my eyefinity setup, altho the benches are higher with my HD7970 3GB crossfire setup.. an quite honestly if i turned the AA and AF down, my HD6950s worked just fine.... I'll not be needing a HD8K anytime soon..... and if i had to do it again, would have gotten 2xHD7870s for half the price and only a 25% performance hit...

 

[bobop70]

Glad its being delayed... Bought my HD7970 yesterday

 

[somebodyspecial]

@bigmack70

Good to see you didn't argue with the point of the wall

And yes...Nvidia is better IMHO. But I speak mostly as an investor.
AMD=lost 1.8B
NV=made ~550 mil
AMD=3B+ debt
NV=no debt 3.5B+ cash
AMD~25% market share
NV ~65%
AMD=arm in 2014
NV=5th/6th rev in 2014 and arm server/desktop cpu's to compete for AMD's cpu (and intel's but they aren't the point here) market share in the cpu market...
AMD=giving away tons of games to sell cards (heck they'll give 6-8 for two cards)
NV=1 game if you're lucky...LOL.
Games are NOT FREE last I checked. People should hate AMD for doing this as it's driving their profits further into the ground vs. NV's.

Translation=I think NV is winning.

A small enough wall for you?...It's a sad state of affairs for AMD these days. I don't expect them to turn a profit for 2013FY. I expect another large loss.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]somebodyspecial[/nom]@bigmack70Good to see you didn't argue with the point of the wall And yes...Nvidia is better IMHO. But I speak mostly as an investor. AMD=lost 1.8BNV=made ~550 milAMD=3B+ debtNV=no debt 3.5B+ cashAMD~25% market shareNV ~65%AMD=arm in 2014NV=5th/6th rev in 2014 and arm server/desktop cpu's to compete for AMD's cpu (and intel's but they aren't the point here) market share in the cpu market...AMD=giving away tons of games to sell cards (heck they'll give 6-8 for two cards)NV=1 game if you're lucky...LOL.Games are NOT FREE last I checked. People should hate AMD for doing this as it's driving their profits further into the ground vs. NV's.Translation=I think NV is winning.A small enough wall for you?...It's a sad state of affairs for AMD these days. I don't expect them to turn a profit for 2013FY. I expect another large loss.[/citation]

Profit and even revenue are often not important in determining which company's products are better at a given time. For example, AMD had a huge advantage in Netburst versus Athlon 64/FX when it came to performance at a given price (granted it was mostly because of their memory performance advantage), yet they were still by far the underdog and probably would have been even if Intel wasn't illegally screwing them over at the time. As a further example, as of right now, AMD is generally winning in gaming performance at a given price (albeit not by large margins) in most of the world compared to Nvidia even if you ignore the free games.

Also, what with AMD being in many consoles and such, chances are that they'll make good profits starting in 2014 or 2015. With their new APUs, CPUs, and APUs also coming out later this year and early next year, those chances are improved even more. I agree in that 2013 may not be a good year for AMD and maybe even 2014, but it looks like AMD has a good future over the next decade as of right now.

Also, AMD giving away free games to sell cards is hardly a mark against them and if we go by DX11 market share, IE market share of people who upgrade much more often than other people and are thus more important for the graphics and CPU companies than the total market share, AMD is doing similarly well to Nvidia.

Also, I fail to see how giving away free games is hurting AMD. It increases the amount of people buying the cards and it's unlikely that AMD would have restarted the Never Settle deal if it wasn't successful the first time they had it.

Also, speaking as an investor... Nvidia's managers have been trying to sell off the company for years. IDK how well that would go, especially since they keep getting turned down, but it does not instill within me a whole lot of confidence.

 

[somebodyspecial]

@blazorthon
Please provide proof NV is trying to sell themselves. Jen Hsun has said he'd only sell to Intel if he's the president of the company when done. Other than that, proof please?

NV is not shopping their company...AMD is via JP Morgan. Proof of NV being turned down please? I'm not aware of them shopping out the company to begin with other than to sell to intel to be CEO of Intel which is just a rumor at this point anyway.

Profit and revenue (as an investor) are the ONLY THING that counts. If everything you do costs you money and you're making nothing that's what we call BAD in investing...Not sure why you seem confused about who's winning this war. You lose money and I make money, you're losing. Nuff said. It's really as simple as that when you have nothing coming until 2014 (mid 2014 if info I have is correct) to even have a hope of changing this. You seem to think they can keep losing 1.8B per year and compete with a company (companies, Intel, Qcom, samsung) eating their lunch. HOW? I don't care if you have a better product. IF you can't make money selling it YOU LOSE. Understand? Are we really going to do this again? You say comments that mean nothing, while I destroy you with the data? Stop now please (as arrogant as that sounds, save me the efforts). Profits and revenue don't matter?...Seriously? Sell every stock you own if you actually own ANY. Put your money in a mutual fund and let someone else control it. AMD can't lost another 1.8B this year, they don't have that much in cash. Do you get this? At some point, their backers (who have delayed their own Abu Dhabi fab plans) will not be able to afford to loan them more. Their credit rating sucks, and getting a loan at this point is at loan shark rates (our own country is heading there soon with the first two downgrades EVER in our history both in Obama's rule). You can't fix this without stopping the bleeding, and making money! You don't make money giving away games that steals straight from your profit.

Consoles are going to save them? NOPE.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6736/nvidias-new-f2p-bundle-the-first-hit-is-free
Read page 4 in comments section as I don't want to type it all again, it has my comment (TheJIAN). They will be out of cash before consoles make any decent money. Wasted R&D. Should have spent that R&D on competing with NV's Maxwell. NOT consoles that will have difficult times vs. Tablets, phones, ouya (upgraded yearly), Valve's Steambox (upgradeable), NV Shield (PC power on TV, who need console?). Consoles are going to die, and I expect their sales to be 1/2 or 2/3 of the last gen. Too many competitors not stuck in stone for 5-10 yrs. IF (bit if) anything you said means anything, AMD should be making money right?...NOPE. 1.8B loss and a huge 550mil loss this quarter (xmas for god's sake! supposed to be your best quarter all year). This isn't about who I LIKE OR DISLIKE. IT's about who can survive and who MAKES MONEY for future R&D. Giving away free games is KILLING AMD PROFIT. They are NOT FREE. If they give a free game, they take ~$10 from their sale of the product (3=~30 etc). Simple math, not mystery science. AMD has great cards, and should be charging accordingly not giving away crap that kills their bottom line, thereby breaking their company further. Get it? At some point you have to pay off your VISA card to get back to profit. They continue to try to charge on it while mounting debt. Understand? I'm not talking about who is better perf wise (though we could argue that all day), I'm talking can you make it to 2014/2015 with losses? How will it weaken you? My answer, a LOT. How will you compete in that state then? BADLY. Get it?

@Bigmac70 don't agree with 7970ghz ruling the crown. It depends on the games, see my post at anandtech. I have no pref regarding cards other than bang for buck and will buy whatever is faster in what I pay, which changes yearly (I prefer NV stock right now, however) but I put off my xmas purchase of NV 660ti because - well, I don't need it really (my radeon 5850 still does enough and I haven't had much time to game, training mostly these days). But I prefer both companies to be STRONG, and AMD continues to push themselves weaker. As an investor in NV, I like this, but as a long term PC upgrader I hate this! I squirm when I think of an NV vs. Intel race rather than AMD vs. NV gpu race. Intel sucks.

I've enjoyed cards from both sides over the last 25yrs. No complaints about my radeon 5850 or my previous 8800gt 320 etc. My dad still has his 8800GT. Neither makes bad chips (currently anyway). But I fear AMD will be doing the same thing in gpu's they did in cpu's last year (giving up the race). Already a delay now. Can't wait for the conference call today for NV. But fear they'll announce maxwell delay due to AMD delay and no need.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]somebodyspecial[/nom]@blazorthonPlease provide proof NV is trying to sell themselves. Jen Hsun has said he'd only sell to Intel if he's the president of the company when done. Other than that, proof please?NV is not shopping their company...AMD is via JP Morgan. Proof of NV being turned down please? I'm not aware of them shopping out the company to begin with other than to sell to intel to be CEO of Intel which is just a rumor at this point anyway.Profit and revenue (as an investor) are the ONLY THING that counts. If everything you do costs you money and you're making nothing that's what we call BAD in investing...Not sure why you seem confused about who's winning this war. You lose money and I make money, you're losing. Nuff said. It's really as simple as that when you have nothing coming until 2014 (mid 2014 if info I have is correct) to even have a hope of changing this. You seem to think they can keep losing 1.8B per year and compete with a company (companies, Intel, Qcom, samsung) eating their lunch. HOW? I don't care if you have a better product. IF you can't make money selling it YOU LOSE. Understand? Are we really going to do this again? You say comments that mean nothing, while I destroy you with the data? Stop now please (as arrogant as that sounds, save me the efforts). Profits and revenue don't matter?...Seriously? Sell every stock you own if you actually own ANY. Put your money in a mutual fund and let someone else control it. AMD can't lost another 1.8B this year, they don't have that much in cash. Do you get this? At some point, their backers (who have delayed their own Abu Dhabi fab plans) will not be able to afford to loan them more. Their credit rating sucks, and getting a loan at this point is at loan shark rates (our own country is heading there soon with the first two downgrades EVER in our history both in Obama's rule). You can't fix this without stopping the bleeding, and making money! You don't make money giving away games that steals straight from your profit.Consoles are going to save them? NOPE.http://www.anandtech.com/show/6736 [...] it-is-freeRead page 4 in comments section as I don't want to type it all again, it has my comment (TheJIAN). They will be out of cash before consoles make any decent money. Wasted R&D. Should have spent that R&D on competing with NV's Maxwell. NOT consoles that will have difficult times vs. Tablets, phones, ouya (upgraded yearly), Valve's Steambox (upgradeable), NV Shield (PC power on TV, who need console?). Consoles are going to die, and I expect their sales to be 1/2 or 2/3 of the last gen. Too many competitors not stuck in stone for 5-10 yrs. IF (bit if) anything you said means anything, AMD should be making money right?...NOPE. 1.8B loss and a huge 550mil loss this quarter (xmas for god's sake! supposed to be your best quarter all year). This isn't about who I LIKE OR DISLIKE. IT's about who can survive and who MAKES MONEY for future R&D. Giving away free games is KILLING AMD PROFIT. They are NOT FREE. If they give a free game, they take ~$10 from their sale of the product (3=~30 etc). Simple math, not mystery science. AMD has great cards, and should be charging accordingly not giving away crap that kills their bottom line, thereby breaking their company further. Get it? At some point you have to pay off your VISA card to get back to profit. They continue to try to charge on it while mounting debt. Understand? I'm not talking about who is better perf wise (though we could argue that all day), I'm talking can you make it to 2014/2015 with losses? How will it weaken you? My answer, a LOT. How will you compete in that state then? BADLY. Get it?@Bigmac70 don't agree with 7970ghz ruling the crown. It depends on the games, see my post at anandtech. I have no pref regarding cards other than bang for buck and will buy whatever is faster in what I pay, which changes yearly (I prefer NV stock right now, however) but I put off my xmas purchase of NV 660ti because - well, I don't need it really (my radeon 5850 still does enough and I haven't had much time to game, training mostly these days). But I prefer both companies to be STRONG, and AMD continues to push themselves weaker. As an investor in NV, I like this, but as a long term PC upgrader I hate this! I squirm when I think of an NV vs. Intel race rather than AMD vs. NV gpu race. Intel sucks.I've enjoyed cards from both sides over the last 25yrs. No complaints about my radeon 5850 or my previous 8800gt 320 etc. My dad still has his 8800GT. Neither makes bad chips (currently anyway). But I fear AMD will be doing the same thing in gpu's they did in cpu's last year (giving up the race). Already a delay now. Can't wait for the conference call today for NV. But fear they'll announce maxwell delay due to AMD delay and no need.[/citation]

Going purely by profit and revenue in investing is blatantly stupid. If I made my investments purely by that, then I wouldn't make several hundred percent profit on investments in MCIC (formerly XMDC) every few months. There are many things that an investor should look for such as looking at the companies actions and patterns, not just current profit/revenue.

What is this war you're talking about? Competition between AMD and Nvidia is not a war. It is business. War implies one side is trying to kill the other whereas in business such as theirs, that can't be done because doing so would mean that the *winner* gets then killed by anti-trust lawsuits and such.

Whether or not you care about the better product is irrelevant on a site such as Tom's where the product is what matters. This is not an investing site; it is a technology site. My comments mean nothing to you because you are not only disagreeing with me, but with the very point of a site such as Tom's which is what my comments are founded in, the technology. There is a difference between having no meaning and having no meaning within a certain context, especially when you're trying to discuss a context that is not the point of this site.

AMD is stopping the bleeding to make money. That isn't the sort of thing that often gets done quickly unless it is done sloppily and falls apart afterwards.

Your link doesn't prove anything about consoles not working out. Furthermore, even if they only sell one half to two thirds as many as the previous generation, there's still a lot of profit to be had in them for AMD, especially if AMD really is in all three for graphics and in as CPU for one or two of them.

AMD is spending money on competing with Nvidia's Maxwell. Do you think that AMD ignored that in the face of the consoles? If so, then you are wrong. AMD is still doing work on their discrete cards too.

AMD doesn't need loans right now. Loans would only exacerbate their problems if at high rates.

What proof do you have that giving away the free games is hurting AMD's profits? you've said it multiple times now, yet offered no proof. Why would AMD launch Never Settle again if the first launch of it was not successful? Sure, they've made bad decisions in the past as have pretty much all companies, but that wouldn't make any sense at all and you have no proof to back it up. Decreasing profit margins doesn't mean a loss in profit if revenue can increase enough to negate and counteract the loss in margins and that is probably the case or AMD wouldn't have re-launched Never Settle.

The 7970 GHz Edition has the crown and it has it because it is overall the fastest single GPU card. Whether or not Nvidia wins in a handful of titles doesn't mean that the 7970 GHz Edition can't have the crown so long as it wins in the majority of situations, which it does.

Nvidia doesn't need an excuse to delay things. Nvidia is usually behind AMD regardless of why. If AMD is behind and Nvidia ends up launching around the same time as AMD, then that's likely to be Nvidia being more or less on-time for Nvidia with AMD being late, not both of them being late.

Furthermore, AMD saying that they're giving up in competing with Intel in performance was a load of crap. The last time AMD said that was a while before that kicked the crap out of Intel. I'm not saying that that'll necessarily happen again, but it does say something nonetheless. AMD's next architecture, Steamroller, is set to have a huge improvement over Piledriver in both performance and power consumption for various reasons (all of which you can find just by heading over to Anand). Furthermore, AMD doesn't even need to have the high-est performing stuff to compete and even win. The Ati Radeon 4000 series was excellent proof of that.


Besides, why would AMD give up competing with Nvidia anyway? They've been steadily improving in they're product stance against Nvidia ever since they joined the GPU market despite their economic issues. Even with their CPUs, they're still getting back into gear. Both of their recent releases (Trinity and Vishera) were good improvements over their predecessors in performance and power efficiency and we have Richland, Kaveri, and Steamroller FX (I forgot the code name) on the way with more improvements, especially in the latter two.

 

[randomoneh]

Gamers who can afford it should always have the option to pay for a single card that'll run the newest AAA titles on several (let's say 3) newest (resolution-wise) displays (currently 2560x1600, soon 3840x2160 / 4096x2160) at the framerate that is equal to display's refresh rate (60, 120, 144) at highest quality settings. Idealist? Yes. But that's how it whould be.

 

[randomoneh]

[citation][nom]BigMack70[/nom]It's never been that way (unless you don't care about turning settings down) and it doesn't look like it will be that way anytime in the near future, unless maybe they release a dual-Titan card.[/citation]
How about everything from my message, just with two GPUs? Is that possible today?

 

[ojas]

[citation][nom]BestJinjo[/nom]@ ojas "Nvidia's official road-map...Kepler for 2011 and Maxwell for 2013."Incorrect. Nvidia has long clarified that Kepler was for 2012 and Maxwell for 2014. This was from their own slide decks before Kepler even launched last year. The rumors of Kepler for 2011 and Maxwell for 2013 go back to 2010 before Fermi launched. You are way behind on the data.http://i.imgur.com/uYIe8.jpg[/citation]
Ah, no, i saw an earlier version of the same slide.

 

[ojas]

Also, anandtech posted this today:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6751/amd-reiterates-2013-gpu-plans-sea-islands-beyond