AMD Piledriver rumours ... and expert conjecture

[Reynod]

We have had several requests for a sticky on AMD's yet to be released Piledriver architecture ... so here it is.

I want to make a few things clear though.

Post a question relevant to the topic, or information about the topic, or it will be deleted.

Post any negative personal comments about another user ... and they will be deleted.

Post flame baiting comments about the blue, red and green team and they will be deleted.

Enjoy ...

 

[palladin9479]

I think everyone can agree that BD was a pretty flat product. We'll see what they do with PD, if they figured out how to fix the problems then we might have a good product on our hands.

Current series of APU's are HD5x, next generation are rumored to be HD6x based so we know we'll see improvement there. Next CPU is supposed to be based on PD which it based on BD, so at worst we have a flat CPU performance increase. Either way next generation of mobile APU will be better then current generation.

 

[triny]

I think everyone can agree that BD was a pretty flat product. We'll see what they do with PD, if they figured out how to fix the problems then we might have a good product on our hands.

Current series of APU's are HD5x, next generation are rumored to be HD6x based so we know we'll see improvement there. Next CPU is supposed to be based on PD which it based on BD, so at worst we have a flat CPU performance increase. Either way next generation of mobile APU will be better then current generation.

I am so bullish on AMD mobile I've invested big money on it
at $5.05 I expect to double my money
getting my laptop for free so to speak
Intel got lazy and AMD has used the chance to good effect

BD has issues I can't see them not getting 10- 15% more per year over 3 years from it
If it was 2500k I'd say it would much harder to do

 

[Reynod]

The last 8 posts went into the trashcan as they were offtopic.

Thanks.

 

[triny]

Llano was delayed by at least 9 months and BD probably by an equal amount if not more. I don't believe TSMC does SOI, so AMD is pretty much stuck with GloFlo I guess. If Trinity doesn't appear until Q4, then I'd say GF's problems continue to some extent. They are switching to gate-last at 22nm, but who knows when they'll get to that node..

22nm not before 2014 I would imagine probably 2015 any longer and they won't be competitive

 

[triny]

I think most anyone has had the mindset that AMD is having trouble meeting the gains they say they get, but that is basically because bulldozer was so much worse than claims had said.

How many of those claims were from AMD themselves, not as many as you might think.

However, aside from BD they had done some amazing things recently. Think about this: Llano was launched last year, and now there is a lot of talk about igp and apu's.

Apu's have forced Intel to scramble to catch up, and that is now a major focus of theirs, much more than improving cpu power.

Along with their situation in the graphics market, AMD right now has a good chance to gain market share and improve the value of the company. While they are gain market share in the graphics sector, gpu sales mean much less than apu sales will/do.

Trinity is going to mean big things, and it is being overlooked by many.

AMD is in the drivers seat everyone is talking igp
BD sold well it's a hit despite it's flaws
I concur with your analysis Trinity's footprint will be big and it surely will be big in some iterations .

 

[triny]

I think everyone can agree that BD was a pretty flat product. We'll see what they do with PD, if they figured out how to fix the problems then we might have a good product on our hands.

Current series of APU's are HD5x, next generation are rumored to be HD6x based so we know we'll see improvement there. Next CPU is supposed to be based on PD which it based on BD, so at worst we have a flat CPU performance increase. Either way next generation of mobile APU will be better then current generation.

Opteron underpins their efforts it won awards for its design
On its transition to desktop it wasn't smoothed over enough BD was the result
PD shouldn't suffer the same problem and should be better all around

 

[noob2222]

Llano was delayed by at least 9 months and BD probably by an equal amount if not more. I don't believe TSMC does SOI, so AMD is pretty much stuck with GloFlo I guess. If Trinity doesn't appear until Q4, then I'd say GF's problems continue to some extent. They are switching to gate-last at 22nm, but who knows when they'll get to that node..

There is always the silent behind-the-curtain fabs that people don't really pay that much attention to. http://news.techeye.net/chips/amd-should-move-from-glofo-to-samsung

Samsung is already working 20nm memory chips, not sure if they are doing any SOI chips, but could be interesting if they barter a deal. Samsung should be able to get AMD products cheap if they are manufacturing for them.

GF is last I saw still slated for 2013 for 22/20nm with testing in 2h-2012, wich is probably Q4.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

22nm not before 2014 I would imagine probably 2015 any longer and they won't be competitive

Even at 22nm GF won't have tri-gate but instead is still relying on SOI to cut leakage. However I don't see SOI doing that much for their 32nm, considering BD's power usage problems (which admittedly are probably more due to their gate-first HKMG, but outside of GF or AMD, who knows?). There was a study done - I think JimmySmitty has a link - that shows SOI having diminishing benefits for leakage as the node sizes get smaller.

Anyway, GF has announced they are switching to gate-last HKMG for 22nm, which means the learning curve they got with the 32nm gate-first HKMG is out the window. I would not be surprised to see some delays and yield ramping problems, similar as for 32nm.

In 2015, Intel's roadmap puts them at the 14nm "tock" I believe (architecture node) with 8 or 10nm "tick" up next. So if things go according to the roadmaps, it'll be competing against 'backhole digger' or whatever comes after Piledriver..

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Llano was delayed by at least 9 months and BD probably by an equal amount if not more. I don't believe TSMC does SOI, so AMD is pretty much stuck with GloFlo I guess. If Trinity doesn't appear until Q4, then I'd say GF's problems continue to some extent. They are switching to gate-last at 22nm, but who knows when they'll get to that node..

There is always the silent behind-the-curtain fabs that people don't really pay that much attention to. http://news.techeye.net/chips/amd-should-move-from-glofo-to-samsung

Samsung is already working 20nm memory chips, not sure if they are doing any SOI chips, but could be interesting if they barter a deal. Samsung should be able to get AMD products cheap if they are manufacturing for them.

The article said '28nm'. IIRC BD and PD and successors are on the whole node (32nm, 22nm, etc), not half-nodes like 28nm or 20nm.

I would think that if Samsung wanted to get into the x86 fab business, they would have done so long ago. Not sure if Samsung would want to compete with Intel's fabs on the latter's home turf, but yes it's possible, although Samsung seems more interested in ARM architecture. However AMD would have to port its designs to Samsung's process requirements, which would take time.

GF is last I saw still slated for 2013 for 22/20nm with testing in 2h-2012, wich is probably Q4.

IIRC GF is having trouble with 28nm, which is why AMD is going with TSMC as a second source for their GPUs I believe.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

[flash=420,315]http://www.youtube.com/v/6vh3ug0zMd8?version=3&hl=en_US[/flash]
house cleaning.?

LOL - some posters are more in need of a 'photon torpedo' than a hand-held phazer blast, esp. on stun settings 😀.

Edit - found this link http://news.techeye.net/chips/rivals-pick-at-amds-bones :

Over the last five years they (AMD's rivals) have headhunted graphics specialists Bob Drebin and Raja Koduri , who are now at Apple; processor designer Keith Hawkins, now at Samsung; and Eric Demers, who has reportedly been grabbed by Qualcomm.

That coupled with the 10% layoffs which also included some engineering teams according to the rumours, probably means a slowdown in the design cycle..

 

[jimmysmitty]

Llano was delayed by at least 9 months and BD probably by an equal amount if not more. I don't believe TSMC does SOI, so AMD is pretty much stuck with GloFlo I guess. If Trinity doesn't appear until Q4, then I'd say GF's problems continue to some extent. They are switching to gate-last at 22nm, but who knows when they'll get to that node..

There is always the silent behind-the-curtain fabs that people don't really pay that much attention to. http://news.techeye.net/chips/amd-should-move-from-glofo-to-samsung

Samsung is already working 20nm memory chips, not sure if they are doing any SOI chips, but could be interesting if they barter a deal. Samsung should be able to get AMD products cheap if they are manufacturing for them.

GF is last I saw still slated for 2013 for 22/20nm with testing in 2h-2012, wich is probably Q4.

Most of those "behind the scenes" FABS are memory FABs, not CPU. Creating SRAM or NAND on lower processes is easy, thats why Intels processes are normally SRAM at first. Its getting to to CPUs that is the challenge as CPUs are infitely more complex tham SRAM/NAND.

Ya know, the title of this thread is "Piledriver rumours .. & expert conjecture". The statement above falls into the 'amateur FUD' category. Here's an Asus lappy for $998 that has:

Intel Core i7-2630QM Quad-Core Processor 2.0 GHz with Turbo Boost up to 2.8GHz
Nvidia GT540M Graphics with 1GB DDR3 VRAM

So, show me an AMD lappy for $500 that can 'blow it into the weeds'. It's 'put up or shaddap' time, Triny..

I always try to buy good quality Intel doesn't know how to make good laptops

Given your statements here and on the other thread, I seriously doubt your qualifications to recognize 'good quality' :lol:

The good thing about Canada is we live with nature and are not over populated what you mock is what we cherish.

Actually I like Canada - have traveled through it extensively, even Banff Nat'l Park. I was mocking you, not Canada 😛..

Its funny you mention that laptop. We sell it at work for $899

http://www.shopsws.com/laptops/asus/n53sv-xvi.html

Thats even better. So Triny needs to find a AMD laptop for $450 that beats it.

 

[noob2222]

The article said '28nm'. IIRC BD and PD and successors are on the whole node (32nm, 22nm, etc), not half-nodes like 28nm or 20nm.

I would think that if Samsung wanted to get into the x86 fab business, they would have done so long ago. Not sure if Samsung would want to compete with Intel's fabs on the latter's home turf, but yes it's possible, although Samsung seems more interested in ARM architecture. However AMD would have to port its designs to Samsung's process requirements, which would take time.

GF is last I saw still slated for 2013 for 22/20nm with testing in 2h-2012, wich is probably Q4.

IIRC GF is having trouble with 28nm, which is why AMD is going with TSMC as a second source for their GPUs I believe.

Samsung's 20nm is right now limited to memory, as jimmy pointed out, its their testing ground. http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/23/samsung-opens-most-advanced-20nm-class-flash-memory-production/

Samsung fabs also do full nodes unlike TSMC, they just don't advertise that much, actually fairly hard to any good info on them. http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4236686/Samsung-positions-its-fab-to-take-on-TSMC

Samsung can easily make CPUs, they already make arm chips. No clue when they will have 22nm node going.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Samsung's 20nm is right now limited to memory, as jimmy pointed out, its their testing ground. http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/23/samsung-opens-most-advanced-20nm-class-flash-memory-production/

Samsung fabs also do full nodes unlike TSMC, they just don't advertise that much, actually fairly hard to any good info on them. http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4236686/Samsung-positions-its-fab-to-take-on-TSMC

Samsung can easily make CPUs, they already make arm chips. No clue when they will have 22nm node going.

Probably around the same time as AMD as they normally do a consortium togther with multiple companies to get to the next node.

 

[triny]

Most of those "behind the scenes" FABS are memory FABs, not CPU. Creating SRAM or NAND on lower processes is easy, thats why Intels processes are normally SRAM at first. Its getting to to CPUs that is the challenge as CPUs are infitely more complex tham SRAM/NAND.



Its funny you mention that laptop. We sell it at work for $899

http://www.shopsws.com/laptops/asus/n53sv-xvi.html

Thats even better. So Triny needs to find a AMD laptop for $450 that beats it.

what don't you understand about north of 1000,didn't you go to school?

 

[triny]

Even at 22nm GF won't have tri-gate but instead is still relying on SOI to cut leakage. However I don't see SOI doing that much for their 32nm, considering BD's power usage problems (which admittedly are probably more due to their gate-first HKMG, but outside of GF or AMD, who knows?). There was a study done - I think JimmySmitty has a link - that shows SOI having diminishing benefits for leakage as the node sizes get smaller.

Anyway, GF has announced they are switching to gate-last HKMG for 22nm, which means the learning curve they got with the 32nm gate-first HKMG is out the window. I would not be surprised to see some delays and yield ramping problems, similar as for 32nm.

In 2015, Intel's roadmap puts them at the 14nm "tock" I believe (architecture node) with 8 or 10nm "tick" up next. So if things go according to the roadmaps, it'll be competing against 'backhole digger' or whatever comes after Piledriver..

AMD is far behind Intel yet the little company has Intelidiots talking about igp,and both Intel and nvidia are losing market share to Bull doozer and lano
imagine when backhole digger comes
there is a blood letting coming ,both Intel, Nvidia are already bleeding market share.

 

[Mousemonkey]

mocking people puts your brain's age at 16 or less you ought to rectify that

AMD is far behind Intel yet the little company has Intelidiots talking about igp,and both Intel and nvidia are losing market share to Bull doozer and lano
imagine when backhole digger comes
there is a blood letting coming ,both Intel, Nvidia are already bleeding market share.

Now that's irony right there! :lol:

 

[jimmysmitty]

what don't you understand about north of 1000,didn't you go to school?

Nah I just have a degree in Information Technology. You know. From college and such. Means nothin........

As for the "north of $1K" I think the purpose is to show that in the sub $1K market there is plenty of high powered Intel laptops that can not be beat by a laptop from AMD at half the price.

Most likley you are thinking of those gaming grade laptops that cost more than they are worth but there are still ones out there that it comes hard to beat.

AMD is far behind Intel yet the little company has Intelidiots talking about igp,and both Intel and nvidia are losing market share to Bull doozer and lano
imagine when backhole digger comes
there is a blood letting coming ,both Intel, Nvidia are already bleeding market share.

I can see Intel losing market share to AMD in the low end DT and mobile sectors due to Llano. But Bulldozer? Absolutley not. At my work we sell more 2500Ks and 2600Ks than we do Llano and BD combined. We have had a recent surge in BD sales but ONLY because we cannot easily get Phenom IIs and Athlon IIs so BD is all we have to sell. As for Llano, we sell maybe one or two machine, if that, a month. Actually less than that even. Its every 3-4 months.

Now that's irony right there! :lol:

Yea it is. But what did you expect?

 

[jimmysmitty]

Being a Brit I had to point it out as there are those in the colonies who still fail to grasp the concept on a regular basis, as triny has so eloquently shown.

Thats true but don't mix him up with us. He is a Canadian. As "Eh" written all over.

 

[esrever]

nice racism on this eh forum.

 

[triny]

Nah I just have a degree in Information Technology. You know. From college and such. Means nothin........

As for the "north of $1K" I think the purpose is to show that in the sub $1K market there is plenty of high powered Intel laptops that can not be beat by a laptop from AMD at half the price.

Most likley you are thinking of those gaming grade laptops that cost more than they are worth but there are still ones out there that it comes hard to beat.



I can see Intel losing market share to AMD in the low end DT and mobile sectors due to Llano. But Bulldozer? Absolutley not. At my work we sell more 2500Ks and 2600Ks than we do Llano and BD combined. We have had a recent surge in BD sales but ONLY because we cannot easily get Phenom IIs and Athlon IIs so BD is all we have to sell. As for Llano, we sell maybe one or two machine, if that, a month. Actually less than that even. Its every 3-4 months.



Yea it is. But what did you expect?

I already know you think trinity will have +10% cpu and +30% gpu if that is all they get I'll still get a trinity laptop
though I believe it will do better . I already own a intel 2500k so i'll have the best of both
Intel laptops don't compete period you'll need to compare them to see for yourself
even with a discrete they lag behind visually

 

[triny]

Being a Brit I had to point it out as there are those in the colonies who still fail to grasp the concept on a regular basis, as triny has so eloquently shown.

unfortunately the colony days are over and Britain is on brink of collapse

 

[Mousemonkey]

nice racism on this eh forum.

Where's the racism? You do know that Canada is still sort of British colony don't you? As the Monarch is Queen Elizabeth II.

 

[jimmysmitty]

I already know you think trinity will have +10% cpu and +30% gpu if that is all they get I'll still get a trinity laptop
though I believe it will do better . I already own a intel 2500k so i'll have the best of both
Intel laptops don't compete period you'll need to compare them to see for yourself
even with a discrete they lag behind visually

So a CPU thats proven to be superior with a higher end GPU and not a entry level IGP lags behind?

Thats like saying a A series APU beats the 2500K in all CPU tests and with its onboard IGP beats the 2500K when the 2500K is paired with a higher end discrete GPU.

Now I know you have gone a bit twisty.

unfortunately the colony days are over and Britain is on brink of collapse

Yet britian currently maintains one of the best exchange rates for their money.......

 

[Mousemonkey]

Yet britian currently maintains one of the best exchange rates for their money.......

That's what staying out of the Euro can do for ya! :lol:

 

[jimmysmitty]

That's what staying out of the Euro can do for ya! :lol:

Probably the smartest thing the UK has done in a good long while. Whe all the other countries in the EU started having problems, I told people the EU will end up like the USSR. You cannot have a couple powerful countries and a ton of weak countries together like that. Once one falls, the rest will tumble like dominoes.