Redistributing the companies moralstic values to justify software enhancements through driver optimisations in order to bring about a increase in a synthetic benchmarking enviroment isn't cheating.... it's only cheating if you get caught,
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If i cant see any diffenrence in IQ i dont call that cheating...i call that making better driver and not rendering what is totaly unusefull.
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Thanks,
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coolsquirtle
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WOOT!!!!!
that's all i'm going to say......
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that's all i'm going to say......
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TheGreatGrapeApe
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See the point isn't just whether YOU or I can tell the difference, but if there are shortcuts being taken (that are quantifiable [IQ diff]) that render head to head comparisons invalid. Whether or not this was already the case is a bit irrelevant since ATI said they didn't do this kind of optimisation.
The point that has been made here before about brillinear, and that GW appeared to be making a few posts back was that even when YOU the consumer/gamer/owner decide to apply full trilinear filtering and are given something less. Not because it's impossible, just because it gives better benchmark results.
Having the option to turn on/off brilinear (like 'temporal AA') would've be the way to go, this way it looks like they tried to sneak it past people simply to make the initial X800 results look better. And it appears that it wasn't really necessary so it just hurts their reputation for nothing.
It's not just about noticing it, it's about playing fair, and giving your users control of their own cards/games.
If you don't really notice that you aren't getting the advertised 45mpg, cause you think it must be your driving habits keeping you from achieving it, would it matter if the car companies cheated you because they ran the tests downhill but forgot to mention it?
This is a step backwards that's for sure. Regardless of what nV has done, and regardless of whether this is equal IQ to the nV's (which also use brilinear in some cases mainly NV3X), it's still not up to the standards that ATI said they would continue to uphold. Remember that brilinear in UT2K3 can be turned off in the GF6800, so even there that's nV deciding to give their users back some control. Not that there aren't other areas to work on, but that's a different story.
I'll still wait for ATI's response before passing final judgement, but this doesn't look good, and at best could be called a bad rvier error, which is NOT a good thing.
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The point that has been made here before about brillinear, and that GW appeared to be making a few posts back was that even when YOU the consumer/gamer/owner decide to apply full trilinear filtering and are given something less. Not because it's impossible, just because it gives better benchmark results.
Having the option to turn on/off brilinear (like 'temporal AA') would've be the way to go, this way it looks like they tried to sneak it past people simply to make the initial X800 results look better. And it appears that it wasn't really necessary so it just hurts their reputation for nothing.
It's not just about noticing it, it's about playing fair, and giving your users control of their own cards/games.
If you don't really notice that you aren't getting the advertised 45mpg, cause you think it must be your driving habits keeping you from achieving it, would it matter if the car companies cheated you because they ran the tests downhill but forgot to mention it?
This is a step backwards that's for sure. Regardless of what nV has done, and regardless of whether this is equal IQ to the nV's (which also use brilinear in some cases mainly NV3X), it's still not up to the standards that ATI said they would continue to uphold. Remember that brilinear in UT2K3 can be turned off in the GF6800, so even there that's nV deciding to give their users back some control. Not that there aren't other areas to work on, but that's a different story.
I'll still wait for ATI's response before passing final judgement, but this doesn't look good, and at best could be called a bad rvier error, which is NOT a good thing.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK
<b>I</b> just think its something totaly un-usefull to whine about......i watched some comparison picture and i could not see a [-peep-] difference.....
<b>I</b> realy prefer my card to run this mode than to have it run full trilinear (and losing fps) and having no difference on IQ.
Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by coylter on 05/17/04 01:22 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<b>I</b> realy prefer my card to run this mode than to have it run full trilinear (and losing fps) and having no difference on IQ.
Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by coylter on 05/17/04 01:22 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Willamette_sucks
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Seriously coylter, pack your sh*t and get the f*ck out of our forums.
I'm upset about the whole issue too. I'm not against optimizations being available, but it should be an option. Noone likes things being done behind their back, especially when you're the one funding them!
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I'm upset about the whole issue too. I'm not against optimizations being available, but it should be an option. Noone likes things being done behind their back, especially when you're the one funding them!
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cleeve
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You miss the points, sir:
1- Speed enhancing optimizations are nice, <b>AS LONG AS THE END USER CAN TURN THEM OFF IF THEY WANT TO GET FULL QUALITY</b>.
When you're paying $500 for a videocard, you better damn well be able to see the quality you pay for.
2- If a line is not drawn, <b>AT WHAT POINT WILL THE IMAGE QUALITY SACRIFICE STOP?</b>
Sacrificing image quality for framerates is OK a little bit, but not alot? Where do you draw a line?
The only workable solution is to make it absolutely unacceptable when the driver is set to the highest quality level. Anything else is cheating, quite frankly.
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HardWareBoss
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Nice real nice. The 2 big vig guys. nVidia and ATI have to relate to cheating. With all their news cards. I'm still using my ole TI4200. So when will the cheating stop? :frown: I'm not holding my breath. It stinks when the have to fudge their numbers to get you to buy their cards.
HardWareBoss
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HardWareBoss
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It's a question of where you draw the line. YOU might not be able to tell the difference, but someone who's spent $10,000 on a monitor might (hypothetical of course - no-one's that stupid are they? 
). So if you say that's ok by you, what if next time they include a Floptimization that's invisible @640x480 on a fuzzy 14" monitor from 1995, but is glaringly obvious to you. is <i>that</i> acceptable?
I have no problems with any driver tweaks like these, as long as they are completely open and tell us about them. aTI could almost instantly lose a reputation they've taken a couple of years to build up, and that's very sad.
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). So if you say that's ok by you, what if next time they include a Floptimization that's invisible @640x480 on a fuzzy 14" monitor from 1995, but is glaringly obvious to you. is <i>that</i> acceptable? I have no problems with any driver tweaks like these, as long as they are completely open and tell us about them. aTI could almost instantly lose a reputation they've taken a couple of years to build up, and that's very sad.
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did Matrox ever cheat with their Parhelia? Looks like they could be the way to go! 😎 Dire performance, but at least it's <i>honest</i> dire performance...
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I'll have to check the 8 ball to confirm!
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Sure they should put the option to render full trilinear.
That kind of optimisation dont bother <b>ME</b>. Nvidia would do the same thing i would not bother...as long as i cant see a visual difference. Dang stop bashing i am just giving my opinion.
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That kind of optimisation dont bother <b>ME</b>. Nvidia would do the same thing i would not bother...as long as i cant see a visual difference. Dang stop bashing i am just giving my opinion.
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I sorta agree with Coylter... Before you burn me at the stake as well, hear me out!!!
I do think it's wrong for ATI to implement these optimizations without saying so, especially since it's against their company policy.
That being said, I still feel that as long as there is NO IQ difference, then it's a good thing that they have these optimizations. If a game can look perfect and run faster, than that's fine with me.
In terms of benchmarking, depending on how you look at it, it does make things a little unfair, maybe. Think about it, if ATI can render perfect IQ without stressing the card as much, then why should it have to sacrifice performance.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it's becoming more and more difficult to benchmark graphic cards evenly. With vendor/card specific codepaths that run the game differently (FarCry), it is more and more difficult to do a pure apples to apples comparison. It's also not necessarily right to do an apples to apples comparison with two cards implementing different technology and running the games differently.
At the end of the day, give me the card that runs fastest with the best Image Quality in the games that I play and I'll be happy.
P.S. I haven't seen any screenies, so if there is any IQ difference, ignore everything I said about not minding ATI (or anyone else for that matter) using optimizations to make the game run better.
I do think it's wrong for ATI to implement these optimizations without saying so, especially since it's against their company policy.
That being said, I still feel that as long as there is NO IQ difference, then it's a good thing that they have these optimizations. If a game can look perfect and run faster, than that's fine with me.
In terms of benchmarking, depending on how you look at it, it does make things a little unfair, maybe. Think about it, if ATI can render perfect IQ without stressing the card as much, then why should it have to sacrifice performance.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that it's becoming more and more difficult to benchmark graphic cards evenly. With vendor/card specific codepaths that run the game differently (FarCry), it is more and more difficult to do a pure apples to apples comparison. It's also not necessarily right to do an apples to apples comparison with two cards implementing different technology and running the games differently.
At the end of the day, give me the card that runs fastest with the best Image Quality in the games that I play and I'll be happy.
P.S. I haven't seen any screenies, so if there is any IQ difference, ignore everything I said about not minding ATI (or anyone else for that matter) using optimizations to make the game run better.
Willamette_sucks
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Why's that? Dishwasher finish and you got your dildo back?
Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too😉
Rachel: why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too😉
Rachel
: why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
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