ATi have just been caught cheating.

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You could always say you won't buy one unless they add that option. 😎

Technically I could say it since it's supposed to be also used for the R9600 series.


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So Grape is/will this technique be implimented on all cards? Does it do bri on 9800s with the Cat 4.5s?

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too😉
Rachel:): why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
 
I don't think so. It may be a hardware thing, but I don't think they 'chose' to put it on the R9600 series alone (unless to simply help it get over it's 128bit memory hump).

Since they haven't added it to the R9800 yet, there may be the possibility that it may not be available.

Don't really know for sure.


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Sudhian has their kick at the can.

<A HREF="http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=538" target="_new">http://www.sudhian.com/showdocs.cfm?aid=538</A>

Some good stuff, and some conspiracy stuff (seriously does HL2 need to be in there? Talk about reaching.)


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Question, if they cheated they cheated why everyone is taking a new spin on it trying to make it look less "cheating". It's not like it’s a big deal Nv guys have had to deal with it for some time now.

Cheating is cheating like stealing is stealing, you guys need to come back from cloud nine here and realize that hey ATI flat out cheated 8xAA it should be 8xAA not 2xAA and 4xAA based on angle differences. Which shouldn’t even matter since it’s not going to over do the AA on a 76 degree angle vs. and 26 degree angle. Same can be applied to AF I would have to think.

Xeon

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the sky is falling for the fanatics. Let them have their time alone.....😀

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yes i am talking to you fanATic!

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You can call everyonne a Fanatic, but it doesn't change the fact that no one's been able to prove it as deliberate cheating, so much as not telling people about the new algorithm. Still not cool, but nowhere near nV cheating.

Xeon, leave it to you to total misunderstand a topic, and obviously not read a single thing, you could compare this to theft, and in that case nV always commits/gets charged with Grand Theft and Larceny, while this MIGHT be worthy of shoplifting or Petty Theft on ATI's part, but even still no proof yet of cheating, maybe just lack of full disclosure. Of course you'd try to accuse them of Extra Super Grand Theft to try and say that this makes up for nV's past year.

As for the angles, despite the rotational method ATI had better AF than nV, and nV has since adopted ATI's method, so nothing new, but I guess you need to try make something of it. Weak!


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AND... this optimization/cheat apparently doesn't have much effect on IQ; if Nvida's optimizations/cheats hadn't compromised IQ so much, then nobody would have complained...

And people need to pull their heads out of their asses when it comes to adaptive rendering too. Most rendering programs allow you to set minimum and maximum sampling rates for a scene, which means that parts of the scene may only be sampled at 4x whereas other parts (i.e. those with extremely find detail) might get sampled at 64x or higher. There is no point in sampling the entire scene at 64x because there is no need to...

AFIAK, ATI's latest adaptive algorithm doesn't effect IQ in a noticeable way; if that is the case, then why get upset about it (apart from the non-disclosure issues)?

If someone ever comes up with adaptive AA (which may already be in use; I don't obsess about these things), then I'm sure some of you will moan about some bits of your screenshots using 2x AA, even you can't tell the fecking difference.

I can just picture you playing DOOM III or HL2. Instead of worrying about beasties that want to use your own intestines to suck out your brain, you'll be creeping around with a magnifying glass looking for mipmap boundaries...

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Cheating is cheating. There should be no adaptive AA when compairing to other boards (if there is both boards should have it on)

I'm a developer I could careless which company is doing doing what, but when I spend $500 bucks on a card I have to know what I'm getting. And if its overclocked 9800 with more pipelines don't really need that :).

All of you ati 9800 users just over clock your 9800 and put a better power cooling solution on. Intead of paying 300-500 bucks an a card that is identical to yours!
 
Cheating is cheating.

Wow, amazing insight from a 'developer'. Seriously, try to put a little more thought into it instead of simply spouting truisms.

There should be no adaptive AA when compairing to other boards (if there is both boards should have it on)

Well considering the original test bed was one that is notorious of nV's forced filtering method, it didn't seem to change it in the past, if anything now the top two are more comparable.

The biggest issue is not making the changes public, the changes themselves aren't looking to be as great a deal as the secrecy. And if ATI adds the checkbox/slid-errr option to switch between methods, then you have a tangible improvement and still have the option to benchmark, but still not against a like part, as the FXs don't use trillinear, and the GF6800 seems to have dropped it's early qualty.

The question will be if this is closer to SSAA vs MSAA issues, than the nV methods which go far beyond this.

Like I said before, <A HREF="http://apps.ati.com/cservice/webform.asp" target="_new">Contact ATI</A>, request it be made a control panel "option".

And if its overclocked 9800 with more pipelines don't really need that.
So I guess everyone should get an FX5200SE instead of Quadro 3000, because really it's just and overclocked FX5200 with extra pipes. :tongue:

Thanks for coming out, bud!


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
What are you talking about the quadro 3000 is a fx 5900 😛

And yes Nvidia 6800 lets you turn on trilinear filtering. And most of the ATI fan boy sites used that to benchmark against the x800 pro , xt and pe because they thought it was apples to apples.

And I did overclock my 9800xt this morning with a water cooling solution. The results are remarkably close to the x800 pro
granted I'm not using the same test bed as the reviewers but its very close :/.

Very dispointed in ATI's new line of cards
 
At the end of the day, I don't really care, if I don't notice it, can't see the diferance and everything runs better then I'm happy and people can pick at it as much as they want...now if the cheat/optermisation/sprinkling of fairy dust was designed for no other reason then as a work around for synthetic benchmarking software, then it's a cheat, but if you can't see it,then you don't need it, and you sure as hell arnt going to notice it.

Gary

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Just checked on the 5200 vs 5900 (quadro 3000) just incase I was mistaken. The 5200 is completely different. It uses a .15 micron process were as the other fx cards use .13. Two totally different chips. Granted neither one of them are that good. The 5950 is different from the 5900 too and the reason Nvidia made the change to the 5950 was because they knew the 5900's structure wasn't good enough.
 
Will you want to spend $500 more bucks on a card that looks and performs like your 9800 (if ya overclock it, and it only costs you $50 to do that)but doesn't have the same texture quality (ya can't notice it maybe but its there)?
 
LoL thats a real good one, doing things like that I can make a GF 4 ti 4800 go as fast as a ati 9800 😛. The gf 4 ti processors were just as good as the 9700 precusor to the 9800. Where Nvidia failed with the gf 4 line was the number of pipelines period. I can show you 2 of my engines that I've made run on the ti 4800 doing 23 million polygons a sec where, the ati 9700 was doing 23.1 million polygons a sec. We weren't pushing the texture pipelines to any degree. The moment we had to push more the 3 textures through the pipelines at the same time thats when the 9700 took the lead.
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Should they reduce ati clock to nv level for comparison?
Should they turn off all the feature like rotated grid aa to compare 9800 to 5900?
Should they turn of a new feature to improve filtering performance with no loss of quality to compare with nv?

I say no....dont disable anything unless it give some IQ reduction.

Athlon 2700xp+ (oc: 3200xp+ with 200fsb) , Radeon 9800pro (oc: 410/360) , 512mb pc3200 (5-3-3-2), Asus A7N8X-X
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When a company lies about how much processing power they can do to achieve a certian level of quaility, and boosts thier sales because of this thats where there problem is!

I was about to buy an x800xt pe before this was found. After looking into it futher its a total waste to buy this card for developing purposes. Because I can still use my 9800xt to build the same things as before.

I've always been loyal to Nvidia because they did have a better product and drivers, till the 9700 came out.
Nvidia tried to compete with ATI but couldn't so they started cheating.

Now the tables are turned and look at what ATI is doing! Not just on benchmarks anymore its on everything. And when people try to look at image quality (colored mip maps) they cover it up.

If ATI stated that they don't use full trilinear filtring anymore but keep the same visual quality that would have been great.

There are rumors now that they cheated on the early half life 2 benchmarks too!

Who know what people will dig up now.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by entium on 05/23/04 09:10 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
What are you talking about the quadro 3000 is a fx 5900 😛
You miss the point, it's exactly the same idea.

The 5200 is completely different. It uses a .15 micron process were as the other fx cards use .13. Two totally different chips.
And how is that different from the X800 and the R9800 0.15/0.13+more pipes+ faster clock + added functions?

Understand now? Seriously look a little deeper.

And yes Nvidia 6800 lets you turn on trilinear filtering.
Actually no you can't not on all. The initial drivers you could, but not anymore.

And most of the ATI fan boy sites..
No bias on your part of course, right?

..used that to benchmark against the x800 pro , xt and pe because they thought it was apples to apples.
Yet with IQ comparisons they didn't find a difference, while the AF optimized option they did see a difference. And that's the point. If the IQ is almost exactly the same then it's a fairly good optimization, if it's terribly obvious, like the nV optimized method, then it's not a good optimization. Just like SSAA and MSAA like I said, and we know how ha's turned out.

...The results are remarkably close to the x800 pro
granted I'm not using the same test bed as the reviewers but its very close.
And those results would also be very close to the NV40 also. Like I said, both cards are far from what we expected and really should have received as so long a wait.

Despite that, I'm sure your results are nowhere near equal, maybe close. Care to post some and compare to SpeedUK's air cooled X800Pro? Post 3Dmk03 results, I doubt you can get within 1K of his.

And since you mention it again;
Will you want to spend $500 more bucks on a card that looks and performs like your 9800
Well you could do that or spend $400-500 on an FX5950 and get less performance than an R9800XT. I'd offer the GF6800s up for comparison except you can't acually get one. As I said before you compare your publish results to Speed's and show us how equal you can make your card with that extra coin for the watercooling solution of yours.

As for your dissapointment, so be it, stick with your current card. I may sitck with mine until the R480 comes (which may be this fall), it depends on the results of the PCI-EX cards, by which time much more will/should be known about these architectures, both their limitations and benifits.

However refine your statements to at least be able to recognize a counterpoint. Don't let the Quadro name fool you, I chose the 3000 instead of the 4000 specifically to prove my point, but if the FX5900/5950 or even 5700 works better for you, use that too.


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Grape shut up, we're not suppose to be fighting about this anymore. We have to start making thread about how great Intel Extreme Graphic 3 is!!!!! 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

beside BIG DEAL, its not like nVidia is getting owned like before, 6800 and X800XT are about equal sooo we can let a LITTLE "CHEATING"(cough cough) go through. Again i can't make myself more clear. the difference is like 5-10FPS anyways, both cards can run games at the highest setting with smooth framerates. Now with MSI making ATi cards, if an aBox show up, it would be interesting indeed.

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OK, ok, I'd prefer talking about how VIA's solution is going to P'zone everyone! :wink:

The thing to me is that the last round had TERRIBLE crap, this round is very equal and so far the 'cheating' issues are rather minor, but there are reasons to be pissed off at BOTH makers (despite the mediocre cards they've released after all the hype).

We already 'gabe' you the A-box for last round, it even came with a coupon! :tongue: :evil:

Anywhoo, more similarities than differences this time around, that's fo' damn sure! Just waiting for the X880 series and NV45 or HIS-NV40 to make an apperance so I can worry about MY upgrade! The way it looks I'm thinking of focusing more money on a laptop and skipping this round, 'til the R480 or next NV comes out (haven't seen anything beyond the NV45). Really it'll likely be the D3 and HL2 benchies with those cards that decide it for me (BTW, Stalker looked like CRAP at E3!), and from the early returns the R9600P handles both of those games well enough to wait for price/performance to come into play. Likely the CPU/MOBO choice will be what forces me to move to the PCI-EX cards more than the other way around.


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Grape how arrogant and nieve can you be, the 9800 is .15 but the x800 is the same core just reduce microns. You've been on these boards for how long. I've been engine programming for over 13 years and have worked closely with Nvidia and ATI fo the last 3 years. But the fact remains the 5200 is a totally different core then the 5900 its not just reduced pipelines. It has less pixel and vertex shaders too and its way less. The x800 has 2 extra vertex shader units and 4 extra pipelines. Is there a big difference those 4 extra pipelines make if you get that card today then wait 1 year and get a new card?

You better go back to doing what every ya do and stop talking about graphics cards. Cause you don't know [-peep-]

Also I never said the 5950 was a great card. I would recommend the 9800xt over that anyday of week. Thats why I play my games on the 9800!