ATi have just been caught cheating.

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ATI still hasn't posted their chatlog yet, but EliteBastards have their chat log up.

<A HREF="http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=4862&head=1&comments=1" target="_new">http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=4862&head=1&comments=1</A>

Still have't had time to look it over yet.

<b>EDIT:</b> OK, finished giving it the once over, looks like alot of people with somewhat preconceived ideas, but that's to be expected I guess. I wasn't satisfied with all the answers, especially the idea that there was no need to mention it, and that an option to turn it off is not needed unless they get enough feedback (guess what, maybe we should add some feedback :evil: ).

Still hard to determine if it's a 'cheat', but it's definitely not innocuous, as the reaction alone shows. I have a feeling that all of the ill-will could have been avoided with a simple announcement like BouncingZB mentioned of a new 'Smart Filtering' algorithm.
I'm not surprised it was overlooked since it had been in place since the RV350 lin and the Cat 3.4 drivers, but really even mentioning it then as a feature exclusive to the R9600 series would've diffused alot of this, and likely would have been seen as a good thing then. The fact that it's coming to light in a product like the X800, which doesn't need these admitted small percentage gains in order to compete, simply makes it look like an attempt to do anything to compete against nV's new cards.

A little better understanding but I would've prefered more technical questions and answers from this chat/event.

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/19/04 03:50 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
oh so ATi is smart this time, they learned from nVidia that if they deny it they'll get flamed so they just have a live chat confusing the people to believe they're not cheating 😀



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Well it's definitely better than what happened last year.

But at the same time I really dont feel like it resolved Anything in my mind. Just confirmed what they initially said, and added nothing.

Guess it's like a stress relief button, the hchat may not accomplish anything, but just having it may make people feel like they are doing something, just like pressing the button which isn't attached to anything.

Still luke warm on this. It's not as bad as some other things, but I personally don't find it an added benfit the way it's being promoted.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
grape, screw this, come with me to the XGI camp!


RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
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LOL!

If I'm giving up on ATI and nV performance, I'm going to Matrox, not XGI, they're worse cheaters! :lol:

I don't like making light of it, because really, F*CK THIS, but man really what else is there now. I would at least feel a bit better if we see a little check box or slider addition to disable this feature or alternate between algorithms(like the truform slider).


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
screw this...... I'm going Intel extreme graphic 3!!! can't be beaten!!

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
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GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy 😀
 
Intel Extreme 3 in VideoArray from Alienware. :lol:


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
<A HREF="http://techreport.com/etc/2004q2/filtering/index.x?pg=1" target="_new">Tech Report</A> really drives the point home, and reading the article is sure to rekindle any anger you might have about the issue.

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<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2216718" target="_new"><b>3DMark03</b></A>
 
the real world difference to us is probably barely noticeable.


my 9500pros AF is kinda blurrier, compared to my TI4200. but ill take the equivilant of 8xAF @ 200fps, rather than 16xAF @ 20fps

-------
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ahaha ATi got caught with their hand in the pant and now they're saying all they did was touch it... poof whatever

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
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GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy 😀
 
Great link Genetic Weapon. That article does explain it pretty good. It wouldn't be such a big deal if they hadn't said "filtering "tricks" unacceptable" etc.. This stuff isn't good for consumers no matter which company does it.
 
Yeah I added mine right after writing that. I think EVERYONE should. Don't be rude/extreme, just be blunt "I want the option to turn off the adaptive filtering that has been discussed recently." I'm sure enough of those will be taken seriously.

As for the Tech resport, the only thing it added for me was ATI's use of the coloured mipmaps, and the fact that they instructed people to disable nV's stuff.

Considering that no one has shown that the nV has better IQ with their full trillinear (in fact what I've seen is nV's best is equal to ATI's adaptive) I don't see that the comparison about IQ isn't justified, nV's adaptive brilinear has a more significant impact IMO.

Like I said, I'm not happy, but really I still think it's like changing codecs or something, where the quality is very similar but the technique is different. If the IQ were so terrible I would think it would've been made mention of with the R9600. But then again not being the Marquee card, so maybe no one ever bothered to do the IQ cheks for the R9600 series.

I still think they should have been explicit about changing filtering techniques, hich wouldn't have revealed any secrets about it, and then given people the option to disable it. Using a new filter technique is fine if the impact is small. The impact does seem small but it's noticeably different from their previous technique, but the problem is there is no 'reference' for what they are trying to do as their is no TRUE output, just different outputs by the various card makers. I'd like to see the results compared to Matrox, XGI, and others, because right now the pool of comparison is small, and really I haven't seen anyone show what's BETTER, just that Photoshop sees differences. The two don't really equate to me.

I probably WOULD want this new technique as I see it, if I had to choose between the two, but most important would be that choice, call it informed consent at the very least. I'm pissed that I wasn't given that option, and still don't have that option.

I don't see this as requiring new methods in reviews, as IQ tests have always been a part of it, does this now invalidate all the IQ tests that said these benchmarks received this and the IQ looked the same (or as many said the ATIs STILL looked better).

The one thing is that this does change ATI's ability to keep saying "well that's something we'd never do", whether this was purposeful or not. Even if it's an honest mistake it has cost them that ability to criticise with impunity.

ATI may still perform better and look better with this new algorithm, but until it can be disabled, no one will trust anything that involves that new algorithm simply because it is different, regardless of what people think of it's resultant quality.

It just reminds me of the exchange;

<i>
- Something's Different...

* Different Good or Different Bad?

- Hmmm, I don't know yet.
</i>

I feel there's alot of that going on because I can't see the difference yet (I'll run some tests this weekend). Right now I'm not convinced it's a cheat so much as a big F'in mistake. It doesn't make it any more palatable, but it doesn't carry the same implications, and to me it is different from a few of the 'cheats' we've seen last year, and thus I totally disagree with the last line of TechReport's article. This doesn't undo the past, nor equal something else, this simply adds to EVERYONE'S issues. XGI's initial rendering crap didn't make nV's ok, and their subsequent cheating didn't undo other people's cheating, and make it acceptable.

I just don't know. I'm still waiting for more to make a final/overall decision. What I have decided is I don't like this new algorithm being slipped in without mention; I don't like that I can't chose to run or not run it; it is different from the results of the R9800XT, but I don't know what implications that has beyond the fact that it doesn't allow for equal AF tests (which we didn't have anyways). That's it so far.

I'm obviously in the minority somewhat in that respect, and don't read anything into that, but I think I'm looking at it from a different perspective, because unlike having a reference image, this is really more about personal taste of how the algorithms work than simply is X missing or Y added, and I haven't been able to really fully apply my personal view as there is no motion example for me to say HEY I like that one better. I see minor differences in the images by DaveB, like I think the little tiny hole in the spire at the top right of the the SS:SE picture (the spire in front of the right mountain), it seems slightly more open/bigger in the R9800 capture, but both the FX and the X800 seem to be different from that, so is the R9800 wrong/worse or is the X800 and FX5950? Experience would lead me to believe one thing, but like I said, I don't know.

Anywhoo, a long post just to say, I still don't know WTF to think; I'm not happy, no mad, just confused and disappointed that this wasn't done in the open.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
Come to think of it this reminds me of New vs Old COKE.

<i>"Hey what's wrong with my Coke!?!"</i>

"Didn't you know, That's the NEW COKE."

<i>"What? It's terrible!!!"</i>

"Well they decided to change their recipe to try something new"

<i>"That sucks I'm not drinking that crap! Wish I had some of the Old Coke left in the Fridge."</i>

"Yeah, but I think it tastes... Ok."

<i>"Nah, it's terrible!"</i>


<font color=purple>Then there's both "New" and "Classic"</font color=purple>


<i>"So Which do you like?"</i>

"The Classic."

<i>"Me too."</i>

"Yeah, I thought the new one was ok, but really it was just something different. I like the Classic beter though."

<i>"Yep, thank god they brought it back, Or I never would have drank Coke again."</i>

"Yeah, It wasn't that bad for me, but I sure do like Classic better."

<font color=purple>With time 'New Coke' disappears.</font color=purple>



I think it's similar here too. I don't think they are using 'tricks', but just doing things different, and I think they are getting alot of negative reaction because of the resultant differences, regardless of how close they are. And then there are some people who are simply outraged because others are outraged, and of course there are those making noise who are just 'Pepsi drinkers' who have a chance to score points against their nemesis.

Hopefully ATI will bring back the 'Real Thing' and let people decided whether they like the option of this 'New Coke' technique.

Anything less would be a bad move IMO.

Anywhoo as always, that's just my view from the cheap seats.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
I have a totally different take on the situation. It seems to me everyone is making something out of absolutly nothing at all. The employees working at ATI, and every other video card company, are being paid to improve upon their techniques in all aspects in order to improve performance while maintaining good image quality. That seems to be just what has happened here. ATI improved on their filtering techniques to improve performance, and although it required perhaps rendering the picture a little differently they still are maintaining the image quality. Should they have a check box option for every new technique implemented in every new generation of graphics cards in order to appease all those who prefer to use the older less optimal techniques of former generations? I don't see why they should bother.

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I agree with most of what you're saying, but...

Should they have a check box option for every new technique implemented in every new generation of graphics cards in order to appease all those who prefer to use the older less optimal techniques of former generations? I don't see why they should bother.
Click to expand...
In short, to avoid situations like this. Being more open and allowing more options would've saved them what is going to turn into a big headache over something that could've be avoided IMO.

Did they need to add the checkbox before? No, I don't think so. But NOW I'd say it's their only solution.

Did they need to mention this new technique? Yeah, since they invest so much time/pr into their 'superior' AF, and since so much has been made of nV's methods of late.

I think it was poorly handled, I do agree that their goal was laudable, but their methods and forethought leave much to be desired.

Now either they allow the use of both algorithms through a slider or a checkbox or else their new method will ALWAYS be in question in reviews and for people comparing performance.

Let's not pretend that ATI doesn't care about their image and their benchmark wins. Losing part of that I'm sure is being seen as a big deal by those who are more familiar with recent events.

So I don't think it's a <b>totally</b> different take. I think you've just come to your conclusion before me, and it may be very close to the one that I arrive at too once all is said and done. It's definitely the direction I've been headed. But still it will also include the reality that while their may not have been ulterior motives, Mistakes Were Made. Be they PR mistakes, implementation mistakes, or even coding mistakes, that seems obvious to me.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
There's one thing I think I should point out relating to the colored mipmaps thing.

ATI is not using a detection mechanism of any kind (at least not in what we're discussing)... not for games, and not for colored mipmaps. The reason full trilinear is used when colored mipmaps are on is because of the nature of the filtering algorithm. The algorithm decides how much blending it should do to the different mipmap levels based on their differences (i.e. color). When colored mipmaps are on, it obviously sees big differences, and filtering strength is full Trilinear. This is perfectly logical.
Although I havn't seen this algorithm in use, I like the sound of it. If there was a checkbox I'd definately turn it on. However, I definately think there should be a checkbox.

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Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too😉
Rachel:): why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?
 
Yeah, sorry, I didn't include it as it was mentioned in ATI's response and the Chat log, but yeah it would help people with the thread if that was made specifically clear since following links usually doesn't help when reading threads themselves.

If you actually look in the B3D thread you can see Wavey DaveB's link to <A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com//previews/nvidia/nv35/index.php?p=11" target="_new">this article he did</A>, which shows a clear case of what you're talking about with application detection.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
excuses excuses excuses

you people just dont want to accept the fact that ATi cheated
(i'm not talking about u WS 😛)

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
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GeForce 6800 Ultra--> The Way we thought FX 5800Ultra is meant to be played
THGC's resident Asian and nVboy 😀
 
So all we have to do is find a way to convince a billion-dollar corporation to stop lying to the public to gain an advantage and make more money.

Next up? Politicians.


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Should they reduce ati clock to nv level for comparison?
Should they turn off all the feature like rotated grid aa to compare 9800 to 5900?
Should they turn of a new feature to improve filtering performance with no loss of quality to compare with nv?

I say no....dont disable anything unless it give some IQ reduction.

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This would have gone over much better if they would have made a statement earlier, that is certain.

I think this is blown out of proportion though.
If their algorithm is dynamicly changing how they filter between mip maps based on the input to abtain the same quality as regular trilinear then I don't see this as an issue at all. It succeeds with the same goal as regular trilinear.

I like this analogy. <A HREF="http://techreport.com/ja.zz?id=48269" target="_new">Link</A>

All they are doing is blending mip maps which they can do at the same quality as before yet with performance saving benifits.
NV's brilinear filtering last year had clearly lower IQ. You could see that in a SS/ingame.

I understand why their lack of notice can be seen as deceiving but when it is the same quality, I don't believe that to be an issue. Their comparisons with NV's is still valid.

If regular trilinear was cutting out a drawn circular image on paper by cutting a square around it then ATI's current method would be cutting around the object trying to conform to the curve of the boarder by deciding if it needs to stray that far to keep from cutting the boarder. No quality loss.
NV's filtering with the FX would be following the curve but cutting corners and cutting into the drawing beyond the boarders. Slight IQ drop.

I havn't notice any real quality loss with the 6800 though. I assume the filtering they used on FX last year is different.

The only thing I see that can be blamed on ATI is with their marketing when they wanted compare their card against NV's with optimisations disabled.
I know they wanted to compared quality IQ vs quality IQ, that's understandable.
But that means NV's card is doing more work and makes ATI shine. That isn't a valid comparison. Then again, that is marketing.
You have to be able to get past that with any company.

Just compare FPS and IQ between both cards with their different ways of filtering.
You can disable NV's optimizations and it would be nice for a more stable comparison if you could disable ATI's as well.
 
Well, ATI has said if people respond, they will make the change.

So we'll see.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK :evil:
 
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