Can AMD salvage QFX with an in-house chipset?

Page 19 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
I think this is just getting mean spirited. If the conversation doesn't get back to hardware soon, this thread will be sent for lockage.

So to get back on topic, I'm sure you arehappy with your purchase as I'm sure I will be. If I'm not, then I'm the only one who paid anything.

Get over it.
Unlike you, I didn't buy QuadFX. I bought Kentsfield. Therefore, I'm verrrry happy.


I still have a 4400+. And yes when I play Q4 at 1280 HQ, I too am happy and don't see my smile leaving with what SHOULD work out to be an FX61 for games and Opteron dual for development.
 
I think this is just getting mean spirited. If the conversation doesn't get back to hardware soon, this thread will be sent for lockage.

So to get back on topic, I'm sure you arehappy with your purchase as I'm sure I will be. If I'm not, then I'm the only one who paid anything.

Get over it.
Unlike you, I didn't buy QuadFX. I bought Kentsfield. Therefore, I'm verrrry happy.


I still have a 4400+. And yes when I play Q4 at 1280 HQ, I too am happy and don't see my smile leaving with what SHOULD work out to be an FX61 for games and Opteron dual for development.

I thought you weren't buying for games though?
 
Can AMD salvage QFX with an in-house chipset?

Yes!!!

sledgehammerly4.jpg
 
... what most people are holding you down on is the incessant babbling of stuff related to QFX that is technically not correct and borders on the absurd.

@ Ninja --- I also believe the thread should have been locked 10 pages ago, however, it has retained a certain enterainment value. Perhaps we should let him go on Smile ....

And I'm sure you want to convince everyone of that, but alas, 'tis not so.
 
... what most people are holding you down on is the incessant babbling of stuff related to QFX that is technically not correct and borders on the absurd.

@ Ninja --- I also believe the thread should have been locked 10 pages ago, however, it has retained a certain enterainment value. Perhaps we should let him go on Smile ....

And I'm sure you want to convince everyone of that, but alas, 'tis not so.


Baron,

THG forums could be the BaronMatrix Blog, with nothing but your technical (snicker :roll: ) posts, and the BS and ineptitude would shine through just as brightly as it does now with people debunking it.


Mythbusters could do a decade of epsiodes on you alone.
 
Eh. As long as we talk hardware, even if we all disagree, and keep the personal insults to a minimum, its all good to me.

@Baron, do you play Quake online per chance?

I actually have thought about it but never get around to it. I used to play a lot under a LAN.
 
Wow, just starting to read this makes me see how woefully inadequate my CPU architecture knowledge really is. Thanks for the read, its probably going to take me all night to digest it though.... *Gets a pot of tea ready*
 
Eh. As long as we talk hardware, even if we all disagree, and keep the personal insults to a minimum, its all good to me.

@Baron, do you play Quake online per chance?

Ok... well then, in the spirit of education --- to all that is interested --

Here is an interesting article written by Harsha Jagasia a Senior Software Engineer for AMD in Austin.
http://download.microsoft.com/download/a/f/7/af7777e5-7dcd-4800-8a0a-b18336565f5b/AMD-Athlon-64-and-Opteron_ccNUMAmultiproc_Windows.doc

Interesting discussion on thread scheduling in a NUMA environment, and the affects of 0,1, and 2 hops on latency and performance.

The author, of course, touts the cHT and ccNUMA with colorful superlatives but still a good technical article on the challenges of programming in such a memory model.

Jack

That was an interesting quick and illustrates teh point I tried to make. Windws already has a mechanism to pin memoy to the nearest node. Thsi is "broken" when there isn't enough local to the node but if you remember I said that the idea would be to take the startup time to swap out the amount of the request that is to be pushed to the other node(s).

For games, a lot of data is actually loaded during game play which requires a "profiling" mechanism be used - as stated - by developers that can accurately determine the max amount of RAM used "in-game" since the RAM use does vary along with CPU.

Of course the OS can just "profile" usage and keep smaller requests on node 0 and node 1 while larger requests go to node 2 and node 3 which should be free up to 2GB. Even BF2 runs with ONLY 2GB total RAM so having 2GB should prevent issues.

Looking at multi-threaded app tests show that they don't have scaling problems but then how do you scale two threads to four cores anyway?

I would bet that Vista will improve the model to include a swapping mechanism. I will look around for Vista kernel features. But we all know that it has been rewritten in a lot of ways for multicore systems, so th eonly issue could be power and Anand showed that that too can be tamed.

Noise. Please. There are near silent fans out there and water is not an embarrassment is it? There is no argument you can use because dual socket is already around and lights have not really been known to flicker from them.

Entertainment systems with large screens can use even more. And those can't compile code.
 
Either way though, I wouldn't try to convince me of anything other than FX70 is less than C2Q and X6800 and fits somewhere in between perf-wise for the apps I want it for.

:cry: We're not trying to convince you, it's useless. :cry:
8) P.S. We're not trying to convince you that QFX it's crap, 8O .... but it is. 8) :lol:
 
Boron:

Do you sell computers or are you the best programmer in a major city or are you actually a janitor in a Best Buy outlet?


These are the kind of cowardly personal attacks that make me say the things that I say. They also mean that I would stomp you out if you whispered something like that near me.

it's REALLY ON NOW. You thought I was bad before.....................................................................................

Did you get angry :?: :?
_________________________

I don't get mad, I get C2Q.
Khalif :wink: :lol:
 
No kidding, Baron sounds like he's about to start a flame war...

Let's turn it off before it's REALLY ON.


I dont' start flame wars. All I have to do is something positive about anything other than Core2.

Have I launched any personal attacks?

:evil: Yes, you launched personal attacks against Intel, C2D and C2Q. :!: :evil: :roll:
8)
 
Boron:

Do you sell computers or are you the best programmer in a major city or are you actually a janitor in a Best Buy outlet?


These are the kind of cowardly personal attacks that make me say the things that I say. They also mean that I would stomp you out if you whispered something like that near me.

it's REALLY ON NOW. You thought I was bad before.....................................................................................

Did you get angry :?: :?
_________________________

I don't get mad, I get C2Q.
Khalif :wink: :lol:
 
A dev box is a PC that runs Visual Studio, SQL Server, Virtual Server - all of which are EXTREMELY MULTITHREADED.

Dev is short for Developer. C#, Java, C++, ASP.Net etc. These all love multicore and FX62 has no chance just like X6800. The only thing that will be even close to QFX is C2Q or some other combo of four cores.

Especially in 64bit Vista.

QFX Rocks!!

:idea: :idea: :idea: If you love so much dev, why don't GNU/linux your life. :?: :?: :?: :wink:

Windows is the de facto standard for desktop apps.

:idea: Yes, and GNU/Linux it's the "de facto" developers OS, that's why I ask. So ? Time of change? :wink: 8) 😱

I have been looking at Mono, but Windows has been bery bery good to me.
SQL 2005/Exchange 2007 and .Net 3.0 are looking really good and I can even sell the products rather than the services.

It's your decision, and it's ok for me but, a software can be copied(make copies to sell) and everybody can do that, even a six years old kid knows how to use a recorder, but if you do the software you can sell the services. who else can do that better than you who build the software and know how to adapt it to another enterprise, and who can give support to it better than you who know it better than anybody. What I'm saying is that maybe it's better sell services than the software itself. :roll:
 
... what most people are holding you down on is the incessant babbling of stuff related to QFX that is technically not correct and borders on the absurd.

@ Ninja --- I also believe the thread should have been locked 10 pages ago, however, it has retained a certain enterainment value. Perhaps we should let him go on Smile ....

And I'm sure you want to convince everyone of that, but alas, 'tis not so.


Baron,

THG forums could be the BaronMatrix Blog, with nothing but your technical (snicker :roll: ) posts, and the BS and ineptitude would shine through just as brightly as it does now with people debunking it.


Mythbusters could do a decade of epsiodes on you alone. :trophy:

:trophy:
 
... what most people are holding you down on is the incessant babbling of stuff related to QFX that is technically not correct and borders on the absurd.

@ Ninja --- I also believe the thread should have been locked 10 pages ago, however, it has retained a certain enterainment value. Perhaps we should let him go on Smile ....

And I'm sure you want to convince everyone of that, but alas, 'tis not so.


Baron,

THG forums could be the BaronMatrix Blog, with nothing but your technical (snicker :roll: ) posts, and the BS and ineptitude would shine through just as brightly as it does now with people debunking it.


Mythbusters could do a decade of epsiodes on you alone.Actually, i'd rather the Mythbusters just use Baron in Buster's place. 😛
 
... what most people are holding you down on is the incessant babbling of stuff related to QFX that is technically not correct and borders on the absurd.

@ Ninja --- I also believe the thread should have been locked 10 pages ago, however, it has retained a certain enterainment value. Perhaps we should let him go on Smile ....

And I'm sure you want to convince everyone of that, but alas, 'tis not so.


Baron,

THG forums could be the BaronMatrix Blog, with nothing but your technical (snicker :roll: ) posts, and the BS and ineptitude would shine through just as brightly as it does now with people debunking it.


Mythbusters could do a decade of epsiodes on you alone.Actually, i'd rather the Mythbusters just use Baron in Buster's place. 😛

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I hope it is now evident that in AMD's 4x4 implementation, none of the motherboard chips have any say in where hard disk data ends up in RAM, and none of them even see the transfer of data from one memory bank to a local or neighboring CPU. One can draw a similar conclusion for Intel systems. As long as the Northbridge is held constant, changing the other chips around will not resolve memory performance problems.

That's where you're wrong. Legitreviews showed that the chipset driver for QFX WAS putting memory into the wrong sockets. In XP NUMA is handled by the chipset, not the OS. In Vista, the OS overrides the chipset driver. I haven't seen any Vista Home Premium numbers yet but I bet they will be better for single threaded apps.

As a person who worked on components (test and automation) for 5 versions of Windows, I think I know how the kernel works. RC2 (the last Vista reviews ) is reserved for code freeze and optimization. XP RC2 was a lot slower and less polished than XP RTM.

The same thing will happen. But even if QFX STILL LOSES 10% off of FX62 scores that's still (including the 8800GTS) at least 70% faster than my 4400+/7800GT at Doom3. That means I can finally buy FEAR.

BM, I suppose you may define chipset to include the on-die memory controller... in that case, yes, that's exactly what AMD needs to work on to minimize the penalties of NUMA. However, your previous writings have insinuated that it was Nvidia's fault for not producing a good enough chipset (motherboard), and that AMD/ATI could do better, when in actuality, the ball rests in AMD's court to release CPUs with efficient memory controllers (and cores, mind you), and not with MS or board makers to release better software workarounds.

The "chipset driver" you refer to is some code either in BIOS or with the OS which programs the integrated memory controllers. As I'm sure you've reviewed the 4x4 block diagrams, you can see that memory data does not pass through the motherboard chips at all; the motherboard simply supplies the physical traces so as not to introduce latency.

I also have not seen from Legitreviews more than a cursory mention of NUMA and 4x4, much less an in-depth analysis of NUMA thread management under XP.

The reason NUMA works just fine on Opterons is that people have benched server programs, which are very much aware of nodes, local memory, and clustering technologies like HT/Infiniband and GbE. Where Opterons may have lost in gaming and desktop benchmarks, most probably wrote that off as due to registered ECC RAM incurring extra latency, which hurts the A64 design quite a bit. I doubt anyone studied the relative performance penalty of games running in 1P and 2P/8P Opteron systems as no one buys a 2P/8P Opteron just to game.

NUMA on the desktop, though, should not show its face as most freeware and consumer-level programs are not built to accomodate server technologies like NUMA (and probably never will as multi-socket is already inefficient). I was hoping that AMD had something up its sleeve to make NUMA latency negligible - otherwise, why all the talk about cHT as if it were a substantial improvement on the interconnect technology Opterons have long used? For now, AMD has not made 4x4 much more enticing than two separate computers.
 
Yes, you launched personal attacks against Intel, C2D and C2Q.

I don't think you can launch a personal attack against an inanimate object.

I guess you're the rookie that's supposed to take advantage of the crap that people spew. I'm sorry to disappoint you but......
 
BM, I suppose you may define chipset to include the on-die memory controller... in that case, yes, that's exactly what AMD needs to work on to minimize the penalties of NUMA. However, your previous writings have insinuated that it was Nvidia's fault for not producing a good enough chipset (motherboard), and that AMD/ATI could do better, when in actuality, the ball rests in AMD's court to release CPUs with efficient memory controllers (and cores, mind you), and not with MS or board makers to release better software workarounds.

So then SSE should never have taken off since it's the only place Intel ever really had a chance against AMD prior to Core 2.