Duplicant/ Clone question

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi-
If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3 counters on
it, does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1? Same thing with
Clone? Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/ Duplicant? And
also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
then play the Clone/ Duplicant?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Malv
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

malv <NOSPAMmalv07@verizon.net> wrote:
>Hi-
>If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3 counters on
>it,

You can't target anything with a Duplicant spell. No creature or artifact
spell, and no global enchantment spell, is targetted.

Duplicant has a triggered ability which triggers as it comes into play, and
that triggered ability is targetted - but that doesn't stop you from playing
the Duplicant SPELL in the first place, whether or not any creatures are in
play. All that might happen is that Duplicant's _ability_ doesn't get to go
on the stack after D. itself is already in play.

>does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1?

Duplicant comes into play as a 2/4, as the card reads. Later, when the
triggered ability resolves, assuming you targetted an Arcbound Worker? Your
Duplicant is going to -die-, because it will become a 0/0 creature after
removing the Worker from the game. The Duplicant does not get any counters
of any sort when removing a creature, nor does it get the _abilities_ of that
creature. (The Arcbound Worker's Modular will not even trigger, because the
Worker did not go _to a graveyard_ from play. But even if it did trigger,
the Duplicant would be dead before the target for the Worker's triggered
ability could be chosen.)

>Same thing with Clone?

Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the Duplicant will
become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.

>Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
>past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/ Duplicant?

Nope; Duplicant says nothing at all about transferring counters from the
removed creature to the Duplicant. It gets exactly what it says from the card
in the RFG zone: power, toughness, and creature types (plus Shapeshifter still)
- and these are the ones written on the card. Creatures that leave play have
all counters removed and all effects that were affecting them stop affecting
them; the Worker card _in the RFG zone_ has no counters on it.

>And also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
>then play the Clone/ Duplicant?

Again, nothing anywhere says the Duplicant manages to get affected by anything
that WAS affecting the target creature BEFORE IT LEFT PLAY, and the Giant
Growth effect has no way to affect a card that's sitting in the RFG zone
either. Giant Growthing the _Duplicant_ lets it live past removing the 0/0
creature - at least until end of turn, anyway.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave,
I think he's asking what happens if you choose an Arcbound Worker with
3 counters for a Clone's come-into-play ability, not targetting a
Clone with a Duplicant's ability. At least that's what this seems to
imply:

> >Same thing with Clone?
>
> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the Duplicant will
> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.

> >And also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
> >then play the Clone/ Duplicant?

***
Clone {3U}
Creature -- Clone 0/0
A/B/U Uncommon
- As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you
do, Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.
***
Arcbound Worker {1}
Artifact Creature 0/0
Darksteel Common
- Modular 1 (This comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it. When
it's put into a graveyard, you may put its +1/+1 counters on target
artifact creature.)
***

If you choose an Arcbound Worker, the Clone will come into play as a
copy of the Worker. The copy rules are kinda complex, and I don't
have time to go into them, but what will happen is, the Clone "looks"
exactly like an Arcbound Worker in every way, including the *Worker's*
comes into play ability (and graveyard-triggered ability). So, the
Clone comes into play as an Arcbound Worker with a single +1/+1
counter, regardless of how many counters the original Worker had.

The reason the Duplicant dies is because it doesn't copy the comes
into play ability, just the P/T of the Worker, which are 0/0 because
it's not in the game and thus has no counters on it.

You don't have to remove a creature by the way. It's optional. So if
the only other creatures in play are Arcbound creatures, Clones,
Soulless One, Heedless One, a Nightmare, a Phantom Tiger, a Spinal
Parasite or whatever else has a * or 0 (or less) toughness when it's
not in play, you can put the Duplicant in as a 2/4.

The Giant Growth happens the same way. A Clone coming in targeting a
creature with a Giant Growth doesn't care. It only looks at the
original card (it's a little more complicated than that actually, but
for what you're talking about, that'll do), so it comes into play as a
copy of the card, not as a copy of the card with a Giant Growth
attached.

As for the Duplicant, once the creature's been removed from the game,
the Giant Growth no longer applies to it, so you just go by the P/T on
the card.

If the Duplicant copied the P/T of a creature still in play, then the
counters and Giant Growth would probably matter (see: Riptide Mangler)
Peter
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hello, David!
You wrote on 15 Jul 2004 02:14:11 -0400:

DD> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the
DD> Duplicant will
DD> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.

I think the OP meant *playing* Clone (instead of Duplicant in the first
example) and choosing (not targeting, of course) the same Arcbound
Worker with 3 counters on it for copying. In this case Clone copies the
Worker's Modular and comes into play as 0/0 with one +1/+1 counter.

Regards,
Arkady.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Peter <knucklehead000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I think he's asking what happens if you choose an Arcbound Worker with
>3 counters for a Clone's come-into-play ability, not targetting a
>Clone with a Duplicant's ability. At least that's what this seems to
>imply:
>
>> >Same thing with Clone?
>> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the Duplicant will
>> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.
>
>>>And also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
>>>then play the Clone/ Duplicant?

Mmmm, possibly. The way he asked it it could have been either, I guess, and
I took it to mean "what if you remove a Clone, _or other naturally-0/0
creature_, instead of the naturally-0/0 Worker".

If he Clones an Arcbound Worker, the Clone appears in play as a copy of the
Worker, and comes into play with the same counters an ordinary Arcbound
Worker would come into play with: one +1/+1 counter. It does not in any
way "copy counters already on the creature", or any effects already affecting
the original creature, other than other copy effects.

>If you choose an Arcbound Worker, the Clone will come into play as a
>copy of the Worker. The copy rules are kinda complex, and I don't
>have time to go into them, but what will happen is, the Clone "looks"
>exactly like an Arcbound Worker in every way, including the *Worker's*
>comes into play ability (and graveyard-triggered ability). So, the
>Clone comes into play as an Arcbound Worker with a single +1/+1
>counter, regardless of how many counters the original Worker had.

Right.

>The reason the Duplicant dies is because it doesn't copy the comes
>into play ability, just the P/T of the Worker, which are 0/0 because
>it's not in the game and thus has no counters on it.
>
>You don't have to remove a creature by the way. It's optional. So if
>the only other creatures in play are Arcbound creatures, Clones,
>Soulless One, Heedless One, a Nightmare, a Phantom Tiger, a Spinal
>Parasite or whatever else has a * or 0 (or less) toughness when it's
>not in play, you can put the Duplicant in as a 2/4.

Right, and right.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Cool--
Thanks for the answers guys! I know my original post may be a bit confusing,
but you guys answered it just fine!

Malv


"Arkady Zilberberg" <arkadyz1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40f68487_2@newsfeed.slurp.net...
> Hello, David!
> You wrote on 15 Jul 2004 02:14:11 -0400:
>
> DD> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the
> DD> Duplicant will
> DD> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.
>
> I think the OP meant *playing* Clone (instead of Duplicant in the first
> example) and choosing (not targeting, of course) the same Arcbound
> Worker with 3 counters on it for copying. In this case Clone copies the
> Worker's Modular and comes into play as 0/0 with one +1/+1 counter.
>
> Regards,
> Arkady.
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

malv wrote:
> Hi-
> If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3 counters on
> it, does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1?

a 0/0 (for that is the arcbound worker's power and toughness) It will
die before you can put modular counters on it.

Same thing with
> Clone? Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
> past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/ Duplicant? And
> also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
> then play the Clone/ Duplicant?

Clone copies the creature card. It comes into play with 1 counter on it,
making it a 1/1 with modular.

> Thanks in advance for the help!
>
> Malv
>
>


--
From the mind of Andrew Kicks
--A heartless man,
he lives by beating his own cheast.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

The Kicksen wrote:
> malv wrote:
>
>> Hi-
>> If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3
>> counters on
>> it, does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1?
>
>
> a 0/0 (for that is the arcbound worker's power and toughness) It will
> die before you can put modular counters on it.

Forget this, it comes into play as a 2/4, then would die as it is a 0/0.
Modular does not trigger since the arcbound worker was removed from the
game.

> Same thing with
>
>> Clone? Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
>> past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/
>> Duplicant? And
>> also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature
>> and
>> then play the Clone/ Duplicant?
>
>
> Clone copies the creature card. It comes into play with 1 counter on it,
> making it a 1/1 with modular.
>
>> Thanks in advance for the help!
>>
>> Malv
>>
>>
>
>


--
From the mind of Andrew Kicks
--A heartless man,
he lives by beating his own cheast.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

David DeLaney wrote:
> malv <NOSPAMmalv07@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Hi-
>>If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3 counters on
>>it,
>
>
> You can't target anything with a Duplicant spell. No creature or artifact
> spell, and no global enchantment spell, is targetted.
>
> Duplicant has a triggered ability which triggers as it comes into play, and
> that triggered ability is targetted - but that doesn't stop you from playing
> the Duplicant SPELL in the first place, whether or not any creatures are in
> play. All that might happen is that Duplicant's _ability_ doesn't get to go
> on the stack after D. itself is already in play.
>
>
>>does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1?
>
>
> Duplicant comes into play as a 2/4, as the card reads. Later, when the
> triggered ability resolves, assuming you targetted an Arcbound Worker? Your
> Duplicant is going to -die-, because it will become a 0/0 creature after
> removing the Worker from the game. The Duplicant does not get any counters
> of any sort when removing a creature, nor does it get the _abilities_ of that
> creature. (The Arcbound Worker's Modular will not even trigger, because the
> Worker did not go _to a graveyard_ from play. But even if it did trigger,
> the Duplicant would be dead before the target for the Worker's triggered
> ability could be chosen.)
>
>
>>Same thing with Clone?
>
>
> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the Duplicant will
> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.

The only way you would ever be able to remove a clone is if the clone
was not another creature, and it's toughness was boosted some how. 😉

>
>>Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
>>past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/ Duplicant?
>
>
> Nope; Duplicant says nothing at all about transferring counters from the
> removed creature to the Duplicant. It gets exactly what it says from the card
> in the RFG zone: power, toughness, and creature types (plus Shapeshifter still)
> - and these are the ones written on the card. Creatures that leave play have
> all counters removed and all effects that were affecting them stop affecting
> them; the Worker card _in the RFG zone_ has no counters on it.
>
>
>>And also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
>>then play the Clone/ Duplicant?
>
>
> Again, nothing anywhere says the Duplicant manages to get affected by anything
> that WAS affecting the target creature BEFORE IT LEFT PLAY, and the Giant
> Growth effect has no way to affect a card that's sitting in the RFG zone
> either. Giant Growthing the _Duplicant_ lets it live past removing the 0/0
> creature - at least until end of turn, anyway.
>
> Dave


--
From the mind of Andrew Kicks
--A heartless man,
he lives by beating his own cheast.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

malv wrote:
> Hi-
> If Duplicant is played targeting an Arcbound Worker that has 3 counters on
> it, does the Duplicant come in as a 3/3 or just a 1/1? Same thing with
> Clone? Basically, if the target creature has counters on it that beef it
> past its original power/toughness, do they affect the Clone/ Duplicant? And
> also, what happens if you play say Giant Growth on the target creature and
> then play the Clone/ Duplicant?
>
> Thanks in advance for the help!
>
> Malv
>
>
Hi there,

Duplicant only copies the printed P/T of the critter, thus the duplicant
will be a 0/0. Hoped that helped


Regards

David
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 13:50:43 GMT, The Kicksen
<slapkicksy@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>David DeLaney wrote:

>> Same thing with Clone: if you remove one with a Duplicant, the Duplicant will
>> become a 0/0 creature and will die right after that.
>
>The only way you would ever be able to remove a clone is if the clone
>was not another creature, and it's toughness was boosted some how. 😉

If a Clone (copying something else) is removed from play, it forgets
everything and reverts back to being a 0/0 Clone in the removed from
play zone

In the same fasion, if the Duplicant removes a morphed Krosan
Cloudscraper it will become a 13/13 and not a 2/2 - even if the Krosan
Cloudscraper was face down when it was removed.

--
Regards
Simon Nejmann
 
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