How to Revolutionize the MMORPG
- Thread starter robwright
- Start date
I played SW Galaxies, WOW and GW for a resume.
I liked the massiveness and configurability of SWG. I hated the time suck later but when I started to play, it was great.
WOW - wasnt my thing really. Played to try and meet up with my brother but he was lvl 60 and I was just starting.
GW - thought it would be different. Great tool to use if you have a group and want to game together but falls short as a game all by itself.
Major limitations: fully interactive environments. Cant shoot down the trees.
😀 Advantages: lots of competition available. Play isnt limited to just your PCs horsepower.
:idea: Its the advantages that I want to talk about. Think of AI and the challenge PC games have generating it for multiple enemies on just your PC. Now imagine a grid of PCs all linked together singley responsible for only one AI each.
We are getting the computer power to do this. Deep Blue played chess and beat the best. I dont need that level of computer skill, I just need a challenge.
What I see is a world that is controlled by 100 or even 1000 seperate computers all located at a hub. Each computer controlles a Boss and his minions. Each computer reports to a world computer that is responsible for maintaining the environment. One computer plays the roll of the God computer who can change the rules that the Bosses play by and the rules that the world follows. Each Boss has his/her own motivators and things that they try to do. Although their play is in real time, their thinking and processing is at full multicore speed.
Results:
The world is constantly changing. - but slowly. Like the SWG model of creating buildings. Items are constantly in creation as well. By players and bosses.
The world can grow as well. Foliage changes with the seasons. Wildlife works on AI and will avoid city growth until cornered and then will retaliate.
Players interact with minions and when high enough can interact with the computer Boss - who is unpredicatable.
Computer Bosses wage war against one another and grow cities, raze cities as they see fit.
It would be like a world full of Deep Blue PCs, all playing Command and Conquor while you are in the middle playing Crisis.
I liked the massiveness and configurability of SWG. I hated the time suck later but when I started to play, it was great.
WOW - wasnt my thing really. Played to try and meet up with my brother but he was lvl 60 and I was just starting.
GW - thought it would be different. Great tool to use if you have a group and want to game together but falls short as a game all by itself.
Major limitations: fully interactive environments. Cant shoot down the trees.😀 Advantages: lots of competition available. Play isnt limited to just your PCs horsepower.
:idea: Its the advantages that I want to talk about. Think of AI and the challenge PC games have generating it for multiple enemies on just your PC. Now imagine a grid of PCs all linked together singley responsible for only one AI each.
We are getting the computer power to do this. Deep Blue played chess and beat the best. I dont need that level of computer skill, I just need a challenge.
What I see is a world that is controlled by 100 or even 1000 seperate computers all located at a hub. Each computer controlles a Boss and his minions. Each computer reports to a world computer that is responsible for maintaining the environment. One computer plays the roll of the God computer who can change the rules that the Bosses play by and the rules that the world follows. Each Boss has his/her own motivators and things that they try to do. Although their play is in real time, their thinking and processing is at full multicore speed.
Results:
The world is constantly changing. - but slowly. Like the SWG model of creating buildings. Items are constantly in creation as well. By players and bosses.
The world can grow as well. Foliage changes with the seasons. Wildlife works on AI and will avoid city growth until cornered and then will retaliate.
Players interact with minions and when high enough can interact with the computer Boss - who is unpredicatable.
Computer Bosses wage war against one another and grow cities, raze cities as they see fit.
It would be like a world full of Deep Blue PCs, all playing Command and Conquor while you are in the middle playing Crisis.
wowisdabomb
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- Jun 19, 2007
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lets face it, the best MMO out there is WoW. And it’s the same game that it was when it first came out.
To be truly immersive, and that is what we really want. It needs to replicate life, which is not static but dynamic and unpredictable. Not like today's mmo, with the same old dungeon, same old NPC, same old... Well you know.
Therefore, the next gen mmo will have very few guides, because things change too rapidly, but it will have a news letter or paper(blogs) of what’s going on. It will most likely have a automated computer generated content, that changes dynamically based on random factors and actual events. Who knows, it may even have politicians! The character will be able to carry a somewhat inteligent conversations, no scripted responses!
In any case, the real next gen MMO will be nothing like todays!
To be truly immersive, and that is what we really want. It needs to replicate life, which is not static but dynamic and unpredictable. Not like today's mmo, with the same old dungeon, same old NPC, same old... Well you know.
Therefore, the next gen mmo will have very few guides, because things change too rapidly, but it will have a news letter or paper(blogs) of what’s going on. It will most likely have a automated computer generated content, that changes dynamically based on random factors and actual events. Who knows, it may even have politicians! The character will be able to carry a somewhat inteligent conversations, no scripted responses!
In any case, the real next gen MMO will be nothing like todays!
meadowlands
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- Feb 1, 2006
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You are preaching to the choir man. I've played EQ for about 2 years, then moved onto AO for a year or so. I quit for a while then came back. Played EQ2 for about half a year as well. I think a lot needs changing in these games.
Now I have mentioned this many times on other boards and you brought it up here: The 1d20 system has to go! This system is old and has not only been used but abused. They try to make it "better" by giving you glowing icons to click on to perform some "special" move. However it still kills the fighting experience. Most of the time I just hit attack and take a few sips of my beer or something till the fight is over.
Twitch based combat needs to come into the mix. Combat like in Jedi academy or another good FPS needs to take the place of this generic combat found in every MMO today. I think Hellgate London will introduce this sort of combat in an MMOish way, but we will see when it comes out.
Leveling needs to go. If I walked outside, I do not see the age or names of people hovering above their head. This is crazy, should never have been introduced and needs to go. With the graphics today, no one person should look alike and I should be able to tell my friend joe apart from john doe.
Raiding should stay but up to a point. For example, to kill one monster should not require 40 people. To raid a town or a city or to defend yours should. Gaining the best gear in the game should require no more than 2-3 people and hould involve a deep, story driven quest.
The more you use something, the better you get system can and should replace leveling as well. I hate hearing "DING LEVEL xx!" every 5 minutes on an ooc or shout channel. Speaking of the devil, ooc and shout channels should go away. I cannot hear someone from the other end of the country shouting and I should not be able to in a MMO either.
Those are my 2 cents for now, gotta get back to work.
Now I have mentioned this many times on other boards and you brought it up here: The 1d20 system has to go! This system is old and has not only been used but abused. They try to make it "better" by giving you glowing icons to click on to perform some "special" move. However it still kills the fighting experience. Most of the time I just hit attack and take a few sips of my beer or something till the fight is over.
Twitch based combat needs to come into the mix. Combat like in Jedi academy or another good FPS needs to take the place of this generic combat found in every MMO today. I think Hellgate London will introduce this sort of combat in an MMOish way, but we will see when it comes out.
Leveling needs to go. If I walked outside, I do not see the age or names of people hovering above their head. This is crazy, should never have been introduced and needs to go. With the graphics today, no one person should look alike and I should be able to tell my friend joe apart from john doe.
Raiding should stay but up to a point. For example, to kill one monster should not require 40 people. To raid a town or a city or to defend yours should. Gaining the best gear in the game should require no more than 2-3 people and hould involve a deep, story driven quest.
The more you use something, the better you get system can and should replace leveling as well. I hate hearing "DING LEVEL xx!" every 5 minutes on an ooc or shout channel. Speaking of the devil, ooc and shout channels should go away. I cannot hear someone from the other end of the country shouting and I should not be able to in a MMO either.
Those are my 2 cents for now, gotta get back to work.
I'm looking forward to an mmo that encorporates Diablo style combat where you fight swarms and swarms of mobs at any given time. Where after you're done fighting, the battlefield is covered with corpses. and you charge into the next group or unload a barrage of arrows one after the next.
I'm really curious to see what Blizzard decides to do with Diablo 3 and how they turn it into an MMO (because thats what I think it'll be).
I'm really curious to see what Blizzard decides to do with Diablo 3 and how they turn it into an MMO (because thats what I think it'll be).
As an avid MMORPG’er I’d have to say that this article brought nothing new to the table, every single thing listed is done in other games, now I know you said “don’t say game xx does that” but I really didn’t read anything innovative though I’m glad the subject was brought up and do think it’s a valid discussion point.
I’ve been playing since UO beta, and haven’t gone more than a month or two with out a subscription to one company or another (I don’t even want to think about how much those fees ad up to). And I can honestly say that what you’re looking for (an innovative change to the industry) already existed and almost came into creation.
Anyone remember Horizens? From the EARLY game mechanics discussion, before the original developer got bought out and the game was turned from a wild new idea to a cookie cutter MMORPG cash maker.
I wont go too far into the details, it WAS fantasy based, no big change there; where it seemed to shine was the racial selections, and daring never seen before game play ideas. This game generated the same scale of Hype as WOW, it had us (the registered forum posters) day dreaming of the game and repeatedly clicking “refresh” on our browsers to check for new tidbits of info.
As the author mentioned, it takes a huge amount of money/time to produce these projects and companies that truly are trying to be innovative often are not motivated by the possible profits so much as the possibility of a great title. But companies don’t stay in business by ignoring the bottom line, and no one wants to take a risk like this; its really unfortunate.
If something even remotely comparable to WOW came out, even with just a few new ideas I have no doubt that there would be a mass migration of “hard core” players who are, like the author, a fan of the genre but tired of the staleness that it is developing.
I’ve been playing since UO beta, and haven’t gone more than a month or two with out a subscription to one company or another (I don’t even want to think about how much those fees ad up to). And I can honestly say that what you’re looking for (an innovative change to the industry) already existed and almost came into creation.
Anyone remember Horizens? From the EARLY game mechanics discussion, before the original developer got bought out and the game was turned from a wild new idea to a cookie cutter MMORPG cash maker.
I wont go too far into the details, it WAS fantasy based, no big change there; where it seemed to shine was the racial selections, and daring never seen before game play ideas. This game generated the same scale of Hype as WOW, it had us (the registered forum posters) day dreaming of the game and repeatedly clicking “refresh” on our browsers to check for new tidbits of info.
As the author mentioned, it takes a huge amount of money/time to produce these projects and companies that truly are trying to be innovative often are not motivated by the possible profits so much as the possibility of a great title. But companies don’t stay in business by ignoring the bottom line, and no one wants to take a risk like this; its really unfortunate.
If something even remotely comparable to WOW came out, even with just a few new ideas I have no doubt that there would be a mass migration of “hard core” players who are, like the author, a fan of the genre but tired of the staleness that it is developing.
This is a discussion i would like to see all 5 million or so subscribers to wow start posting on the wow website. The expansion is such schlock. 100's of hours of grinding required to do anything at all. This game has been reduced to the intellectual level of the average food-worker.
Really though, when i was 15 in the 80's i worked fast food, and we called our jobs the "grind". It's the same thing. Repeat simple task 1000 times, recieve paycheck.
Lotro does one thing right in that there is scripting. It might not be the best, or implimented how i would like, but it's at least there! For my epic flying mount in WOW, i have to make 2000 circles around eclipse point killling everything in my path. How ridiculous is that. It's insulting. Give me a Myst-like puzzle, or a long epic quest, anything other than 2000 circles around some lvl 68 region. THEN, i have to start working on end-game which requires reputation. And hmmmm, how do you think we get rep?? Well ill tell you, you go up north and you start grinding again. You make 2000 circles around any area that has NPC's with "Fel" in their name on the 3% chance they will drop "Fel Armament" and you collect it and turn it in. No other way. There's one thing in the article which i don't agree with, the statement that creating something like this requires great effort. I DONT BELIEVE IT. Scripting something takes great effort. Throwing a bunch of aimless NPC's out on a 3d grid with drop-tables does NOT TAKE EFFORT -DONT BE FOOLED I'm on the verge of calling MMORPG's quits. Im fed up
I appreciate the article.
Really though, when i was 15 in the 80's i worked fast food, and we called our jobs the "grind". It's the same thing. Repeat simple task 1000 times, recieve paycheck.
Lotro does one thing right in that there is scripting. It might not be the best, or implimented how i would like, but it's at least there! For my epic flying mount in WOW, i have to make 2000 circles around eclipse point killling everything in my path. How ridiculous is that. It's insulting. Give me a Myst-like puzzle, or a long epic quest, anything other than 2000 circles around some lvl 68 region. THEN, i have to start working on end-game which requires reputation. And hmmmm, how do you think we get rep?? Well ill tell you, you go up north and you start grinding again. You make 2000 circles around any area that has NPC's with "Fel" in their name on the 3% chance they will drop "Fel Armament" and you collect it and turn it in. No other way. There's one thing in the article which i don't agree with, the statement that creating something like this requires great effort. I DONT BELIEVE IT. Scripting something takes great effort. Throwing a bunch of aimless NPC's out on a 3d grid with drop-tables does NOT TAKE EFFORT -DONT BE FOOLED I'm on the verge of calling MMORPG's quits. Im fed up
I appreciate the article.
You have no idea how difficult it is to achieve some sort of balance between the classes, that alone is huge, not to mention the hours spent on that shrub you just ran past and ignored, don’t get me wrong, I agree that there needs to be change, but never think that creation on this level is easy.
You make a lot of good points and highlight a lot of the main culprits in terms of what keeps us in the rut we call MMOs. I'd like to call out another typical problem which you sort of address via "no levels, no experience" but then again, you miss the basic problem.
If I don't want to deal with a bunch of jerks lake Rundolph, I need to be able to adventure with my pals, be they in my guild or not. The problem is, my friend may be level 50 and I may be level 10. Or to take "levels" out of the equation, my friend may have a 1handed sword skill of 200 while I'm at 20. I've played many of the same MMOs as you, but one I tried which had a nice solution, or at least a step in the right direction was City of Heroes. They had a sort of mentoring/sidekick system. It has been a few years, but I think the core of it was that you could bring the level 20 person up to 50 (albeit a weaker than average 50, but playable) or you could bring the 50 down to 20. You both get some amount of experience, though I can't recall the relative proportions. I'm not sure if the idea is patented, but the basic need for a way for long-time players to be able to adventure with their newbie buddies without the long-time player having to re-roll a new toon is in great need.
Regarding the raiding, I like the "heroic mode" idea that WoW started using recently. I think they really need more of a "raid mode" and "5 man mode" and maybe even a "10 man mode" sort of thing. I positively hate raiding and hate missing out on the in-game content of a gameworld I love so much just because my 2 year old daughter won't give me a 6 hour block to go raiding. >:-(
I realize that is a burden on the developer, post game release...but that's what I pay them monthly fees for. Yes, they are developing "new content" for me, but lets face it they focus on end-game raiding which I've had quite enough of thanks very much.
So....we need a method to allow two characters of widely varying levels to play together and still progress somewhat. And we need scalable dungeons such that all instances are eventually playable WITHOUT raids. By eventually I don't mean 2 years after release of said instance either. 6 months is plenty of time for all those hardcore guys to go get their "Realm firsts", their "phat loot", etc.
Of all your points, the one I think that has the most merit is the combat changes. Granted, WoW was a step in the right direction. As a rogue I went from having a basic attack, a backstab, and a kick button with annoying timer in Everquest to having a bunch of buttons with timers. Combat took on the tiniest amount of strategy: (Ambush, SStrike SStrike Gouge, Backstab, Eviscerate) but still very mechanical. After playing 70 levels of it, it gets old.
Now, I realize that having more "twitchy" combat mechanics would alienate a fair number of players.... So how about we let them program a few macros etc to make it a little easier, etc such that they can still accomplish combat in a mode similar and familiar to what they're used to. BUT! For those of us who want to try a little harder, and want to button mash, circle strafe, do wall jumps then jab our two daggers in the ogre's neck for the killing blow.....well...give us a little damage bonus.
I would like to see more "multiclassing" if classes must be retained. I would be perfectly happy with a skill based system where points get allocated and improve a'la Dungeon Siege (or even old UO), as long as I can spend some points to specialize in a tree structure like Diablo/WoW etc. Then you can call me what you like. I think the names for the archtypes are merely good as a means of identifying the basic needs to construct a strong group: healer, tank, dps, cc, etc.
I could go on and on, but I'll stop for now.
If I don't want to deal with a bunch of jerks lake Rundolph, I need to be able to adventure with my pals, be they in my guild or not. The problem is, my friend may be level 50 and I may be level 10. Or to take "levels" out of the equation, my friend may have a 1handed sword skill of 200 while I'm at 20. I've played many of the same MMOs as you, but one I tried which had a nice solution, or at least a step in the right direction was City of Heroes. They had a sort of mentoring/sidekick system. It has been a few years, but I think the core of it was that you could bring the level 20 person up to 50 (albeit a weaker than average 50, but playable) or you could bring the 50 down to 20. You both get some amount of experience, though I can't recall the relative proportions. I'm not sure if the idea is patented, but the basic need for a way for long-time players to be able to adventure with their newbie buddies without the long-time player having to re-roll a new toon is in great need.
Regarding the raiding, I like the "heroic mode" idea that WoW started using recently. I think they really need more of a "raid mode" and "5 man mode" and maybe even a "10 man mode" sort of thing. I positively hate raiding and hate missing out on the in-game content of a gameworld I love so much just because my 2 year old daughter won't give me a 6 hour block to go raiding. >:-(
I realize that is a burden on the developer, post game release...but that's what I pay them monthly fees for. Yes, they are developing "new content" for me, but lets face it they focus on end-game raiding which I've had quite enough of thanks very much.
So....we need a method to allow two characters of widely varying levels to play together and still progress somewhat. And we need scalable dungeons such that all instances are eventually playable WITHOUT raids. By eventually I don't mean 2 years after release of said instance either. 6 months is plenty of time for all those hardcore guys to go get their "Realm firsts", their "phat loot", etc.
Of all your points, the one I think that has the most merit is the combat changes. Granted, WoW was a step in the right direction. As a rogue I went from having a basic attack, a backstab, and a kick button with annoying timer in Everquest to having a bunch of buttons with timers. Combat took on the tiniest amount of strategy: (Ambush, SStrike SStrike Gouge, Backstab, Eviscerate) but still very mechanical. After playing 70 levels of it, it gets old.
Now, I realize that having more "twitchy" combat mechanics would alienate a fair number of players.... So how about we let them program a few macros etc to make it a little easier, etc such that they can still accomplish combat in a mode similar and familiar to what they're used to. BUT! For those of us who want to try a little harder, and want to button mash, circle strafe, do wall jumps then jab our two daggers in the ogre's neck for the killing blow.....well...give us a little damage bonus.
I would like to see more "multiclassing" if classes must be retained. I would be perfectly happy with a skill based system where points get allocated and improve a'la Dungeon Siege (or even old UO), as long as I can spend some points to specialize in a tree structure like Diablo/WoW etc. Then you can call me what you like. I think the names for the archtypes are merely good as a means of identifying the basic needs to construct a strong group: healer, tank, dps, cc, etc.
I could go on and on, but I'll stop for now.
The new MMOs will not be RPG... there will be MMORTS and MMOFPS.
Unfortunately it will about 2 generations before computing technology is capable of this.
The new Tom Clansey game is moving towards MMOFPS with its persistent world and non-persistent battlefields. Give it a generation or two and you will see an FPS with a completely persistent world.
Unfortunately it will about 2 generations before computing technology is capable of this.
The new Tom Clansey game is moving towards MMOFPS with its persistent world and non-persistent battlefields. Give it a generation or two and you will see an FPS with a completely persistent world.
Ok, so anyone ever play allegiance? Well, one of the few trully brilliant games in existance which has only about 100 dedicated followers. Brief explanation for anyone unfamiliar: Team leader has distant tactical view of gaming environment, an RTS map. Every member of the team is one of the avatars on the RTS map. So you get how this works? Like playing Age of empires where one person has the traditional RTS map, and the rest of us are immersed in a 3d world recieving instructions from above.
Now, If WOW could just do THAT. Blend Warcraft III, with WOrld of Warcraft. Freakin awesome. But Blizzard seems to be far too dedicated to mediocrity at the moment.
Now, If WOW could just do THAT. Blend Warcraft III, with WOrld of Warcraft. Freakin awesome. But Blizzard seems to be far too dedicated to mediocrity at the moment.
I’ve pretty much followed the same track as the author:
UO (which I alpha tested)
EQ1
DAOC
NWN (multiplayer online module creator that servers 100000 people)
EQ2 (short)
SWG (short)
WOW (2.5 years)
I totally agree. I have been waiting for the 3rd generation of MMORPG's.
Some may be confused about that but I break them down like this:
UO = gen 1 (even though online BBS games could be called gen 1 like LORD)
EQ1, DAOC, Wow, SWG = gen 2
In fact, when I started playing Wow from 2 months on EQ2 I thought it was very much a step back in generations so I would almost say that EQ2 was almost 3rd generation.
But the problem was that EQ2 was absolutely no fun. but Wow was extremely fun. Wow doesn’t touch DAOC in PVP and doesn’t touch EQ2 in game design and mechanics (aka "databases" backing up the game).
We need a true 3rd generation game and I do not see one coming. WoW is in a state of failing right now. It has been some time since BC came out and casual gamers just cant play.
The average age of this class of game has been shown to be 30 years old. To ge successful, the game really needs to be easily casually played.
UO (which I alpha tested)
EQ1
DAOC
NWN (multiplayer online module creator that servers 100000 people)
EQ2 (short)
SWG (short)
WOW (2.5 years)
I totally agree. I have been waiting for the 3rd generation of MMORPG's.
Some may be confused about that but I break them down like this:
UO = gen 1 (even though online BBS games could be called gen 1 like LORD)
EQ1, DAOC, Wow, SWG = gen 2
In fact, when I started playing Wow from 2 months on EQ2 I thought it was very much a step back in generations so I would almost say that EQ2 was almost 3rd generation.
But the problem was that EQ2 was absolutely no fun. but Wow was extremely fun. Wow doesn’t touch DAOC in PVP and doesn’t touch EQ2 in game design and mechanics (aka "databases" backing up the game).
We need a true 3rd generation game and I do not see one coming. WoW is in a state of failing right now. It has been some time since BC came out and casual gamers just cant play.
The average age of this class of game has been shown to be 30 years old. To ge successful, the game really needs to be easily casually played.
I played EQ1 for several years. EQ2 for a couple months(hated it) and WOW for a couple years. I have many of the same gripes as the other guys. I think many companies put in major time sinks to keep players paying up $20.00 a month for as long as they could. I am playing LOTR now and grinding is just as bad. I do most all my leveling through quests. I'm just tired of the static game play. I kill a mini boss and it comes to life again in 2 min.
I would like to see special events in game. Something new thrown into the mix. It could be done in existing games. Maybe one time bosses that either groups or guild could kill. I want some NON-static content. Well heres a thought. Allow players to randomly take control of mini bosses or major bosses and reak havok untill other players band together and kill him. That way the company doesn't have to pay a gm to do it. LOTR does this to a limited extent with the pools.
I would like to see a game with no level grinding. It would also have forever death. If your character dies its dead. You start a new one. Yes a person may got thru thousands of characters but so what. let players reuse names.
In the real world if I assault a military base chances are that the whole base will get alerted and I would have to deal with everyone in the base. So why is it different in game play. Yes I know my little group would get wiped in seconds and that would not be any fun. However a little more realism needs to be introduced.
I would like to see special events in game. Something new thrown into the mix. It could be done in existing games. Maybe one time bosses that either groups or guild could kill. I want some NON-static content. Well heres a thought. Allow players to randomly take control of mini bosses or major bosses and reak havok untill other players band together and kill him. That way the company doesn't have to pay a gm to do it. LOTR does this to a limited extent with the pools.
I would like to see a game with no level grinding. It would also have forever death. If your character dies its dead. You start a new one. Yes a person may got thru thousands of characters but so what. let players reuse names.
In the real world if I assault a military base chances are that the whole base will get alerted and I would have to deal with everyone in the base. So why is it different in game play. Yes I know my little group would get wiped in seconds and that would not be any fun. However a little more realism needs to be introduced.
Here is an idea, though it may not be so revolutionary, simply incremental.
We have a fair number of instanced dungeons. OK, great. We love them because we can "be the heroes". Then the main zones are non-instanced so we have to deal with that schmuck Rundolph, kill stealers, griefers etc. Well, what if each and every zone had an instance-able option.
I know WoW best now-a-days, so imagine this.... Having the option to have an instanced Barrens/Stranglethorn-Vale/SearingGorge, etc. So if I want to log on for an hour and blast through a bunch of quests solo or in a small group I can do so without sharing the zone with Rundolph and getting irritated at him because he killed the named giant purple people eater that I need for the "Death to Purple People Eaters" quest. I wouldn't have to wait 20 minutes for a respawn.
When you don't always have to have enough mosters in a zone "for everyone" where each on is a challenge (again because of crowding reasons) then you can make more of the mobs be less powerful so swarm-fighting becomes more realistic/plausible.
And no...it would NOT be that hard to make a zone like the Barrens an instance. Take the number of monsters normally in it, divide by factor X, a provide a means for the player to access that instance (perhaps make them decide when they walk out the door of the inn?).
Just throwing ideas out there.
We have a fair number of instanced dungeons. OK, great. We love them because we can "be the heroes". Then the main zones are non-instanced so we have to deal with that schmuck Rundolph, kill stealers, griefers etc. Well, what if each and every zone had an instance-able option.
I know WoW best now-a-days, so imagine this.... Having the option to have an instanced Barrens/Stranglethorn-Vale/SearingGorge, etc. So if I want to log on for an hour and blast through a bunch of quests solo or in a small group I can do so without sharing the zone with Rundolph and getting irritated at him because he killed the named giant purple people eater that I need for the "Death to Purple People Eaters" quest. I wouldn't have to wait 20 minutes for a respawn.
When you don't always have to have enough mosters in a zone "for everyone" where each on is a challenge (again because of crowding reasons) then you can make more of the mobs be less powerful so swarm-fighting becomes more realistic/plausible.
And no...it would NOT be that hard to make a zone like the Barrens an instance. Take the number of monsters normally in it, divide by factor X, a provide a means for the player to access that instance (perhaps make them decide when they walk out the door of the inn?).
Just throwing ideas out there.
Excellent. Now if only it weren't EQ2. :-/ Never played it. I just don't dig dying and losing XP or a level etc. Not when they make getting said XP/Level so bleeding time consuming. I get to the point where I invest several hours to get half a level, die, lose a quarter of a level and say, "hey, I want those 2-3 hours of my life back. I'm already giving you 30 a week." You know? heh heh.
But cool. It seems like there are a fair number of good ideas that are out there now, but just need to be incorporated. What I wonder is how many are patented such that others cannot use them. Such patenting can often lead to stagnation. No one wants to pay the royalties to the other guy, even if the other guy WAS willing to let the competition use his brilliant idea.
You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see a bunch of polls that group certain mutually-exclusive design choices together and let the consumer vote on what they like best.
Ex: Advancement Poll
1) Pure Leveling (old EQ basically to 60)
2) Pure skill based (UO)
3) Hybrid skills + levels (Wow)
Combat Poll
1) I like it tw-tw-twitchy please! Bring on the button mashing, combos, etc
2) A little button mashing, a few simple combos or timing-sensitive things, but keep it relatively simple
3) I like drinking beers while my toon kills a monster without intervention
etc etc.
But cool. It seems like there are a fair number of good ideas that are out there now, but just need to be incorporated. What I wonder is how many are patented such that others cannot use them. Such patenting can often lead to stagnation. No one wants to pay the royalties to the other guy, even if the other guy WAS willing to let the competition use his brilliant idea.
You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see a bunch of polls that group certain mutually-exclusive design choices together and let the consumer vote on what they like best.
Ex: Advancement Poll
1) Pure Leveling (old EQ basically to 60)
2) Pure skill based (UO)
3) Hybrid skills + levels (Wow)
Combat Poll
1) I like it tw-tw-twitchy please! Bring on the button mashing, combos, etc
2) A little button mashing, a few simple combos or timing-sensitive things, but keep it relatively simple
3) I like drinking beers while my toon kills a monster without intervention
etc etc.
techieman1977
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- May 13, 2007
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I know this might seem like blasphamy on a site like twitchguru, but not everyone wants twitch combat.
Most people I know that play MMORPGs really like the RPG aspect of the game. Pretty much as you go away from character skill you also go away from an RPG. This is of course perfectly fine to do, but it will be its own genre of MMOs, and not really a revolution of the MMORPG genre. There is also the huge limitation of network performance and PC performance. We all know twitch based games require high end systems to be competative and latency is an absolute killer. You loose the option of having a world with more then 50-100 players because the hardware on all sides and inbetween can't really handle it.
One thing about making a bunch of smaller worlds without 1500 people is you are taking away the Massive part of the MMO. Once you've done that and moved away from the RPG aspect, then what you have left is Multiplayer Online. This already exists in the majority of games anyway. Playing with a select group of friends in generated content where you can be the hero and save the day... well other then the combat system you basically have diablo. You haven't really revolutionized the genre again, you've change the name of an existing genre into a new name with a focus more on the multiplayer aspect rather then the single player aspect (which is being done by a lot of games anyway).
As far as customizable looks for individuals, it really is a matter of time. The only way to have 1 million players looking completely unique is to have art designers make 1 million different models, which simply isn't practical. It would also mean that the 2 year $20 million development cycle just doubled too. Of course there can be entirely procedurely generated models of characters and armor, but that takes a huge amount of work too, see Spore as an example. It also takes considerable more power to run a game with even 100 unique procedurely generated and controlled models in it.
Of course here there is a easier approach too, but people will still look similiar, but not exactly the same. First take out the pre-designed without question best "sets" of armor, make a lot of different pieces of armor that are all about the same and people will mix them as they want and diversity will come with it. Give people an easy and practical way to change the colors of their items and it will also help, two pieces of the exact same armor will stand apart simply by being different colors. These of course are options already being used in many games today (just not most of the games mentioned).
So now you've made a game that is completely new to what current MMO players are used to, you've spent a huge amount of time and money to do it, and you've put the system requirements high enough to greately limit your playerbase. Thats failure waiting to happen.
There can, and have been, games that take virtually everything mentioned and use them, some work better then others. Some options are much easier to do without really changing too much. They are all being tried by different developers.
Chances are if someone thinks all MMOs are the same then they simply haven't played enough of them. There are a lot of the more niche games, the ones put out by less known developers and may not have had the marketting draw that are good games and do things a lot differently. With the exception of SWG all of the games mentioned where a very linear progression of the core of the genre but didn't touch on the variety that is there.
Most people I know that play MMORPGs really like the RPG aspect of the game. Pretty much as you go away from character skill you also go away from an RPG. This is of course perfectly fine to do, but it will be its own genre of MMOs, and not really a revolution of the MMORPG genre. There is also the huge limitation of network performance and PC performance. We all know twitch based games require high end systems to be competative and latency is an absolute killer. You loose the option of having a world with more then 50-100 players because the hardware on all sides and inbetween can't really handle it.
One thing about making a bunch of smaller worlds without 1500 people is you are taking away the Massive part of the MMO. Once you've done that and moved away from the RPG aspect, then what you have left is Multiplayer Online. This already exists in the majority of games anyway. Playing with a select group of friends in generated content where you can be the hero and save the day... well other then the combat system you basically have diablo. You haven't really revolutionized the genre again, you've change the name of an existing genre into a new name with a focus more on the multiplayer aspect rather then the single player aspect (which is being done by a lot of games anyway).
As far as customizable looks for individuals, it really is a matter of time. The only way to have 1 million players looking completely unique is to have art designers make 1 million different models, which simply isn't practical. It would also mean that the 2 year $20 million development cycle just doubled too. Of course there can be entirely procedurely generated models of characters and armor, but that takes a huge amount of work too, see Spore as an example. It also takes considerable more power to run a game with even 100 unique procedurely generated and controlled models in it.
Of course here there is a easier approach too, but people will still look similiar, but not exactly the same. First take out the pre-designed without question best "sets" of armor, make a lot of different pieces of armor that are all about the same and people will mix them as they want and diversity will come with it. Give people an easy and practical way to change the colors of their items and it will also help, two pieces of the exact same armor will stand apart simply by being different colors. These of course are options already being used in many games today (just not most of the games mentioned).
So now you've made a game that is completely new to what current MMO players are used to, you've spent a huge amount of time and money to do it, and you've put the system requirements high enough to greately limit your playerbase. Thats failure waiting to happen.
There can, and have been, games that take virtually everything mentioned and use them, some work better then others. Some options are much easier to do without really changing too much. They are all being tried by different developers.
Chances are if someone thinks all MMOs are the same then they simply haven't played enough of them. There are a lot of the more niche games, the ones put out by less known developers and may not have had the marketting draw that are good games and do things a lot differently. With the exception of SWG all of the games mentioned where a very linear progression of the core of the genre but didn't touch on the variety that is there.
The article really hits some points I also would like to see being changed. I played Jumpgate for quite some time ( www.jossh.com ), this is different from any other MMORPG i have ever played. It s a spacesim and there is leveling, but the leveling only decides which ships you can fly. But the ship you are flying is not as important as your skill is (no point and click.. flying like you did in TIE Fighter). Once you reached lvl 18 (of 50) you were ready for a the fight. The rest was just about your personal skill. There were so many tactics, flying styles, different ship setups and different ways to simply aim that i worked for years to get better and better. That was my main drive there. But in contrast planetside it also had a good trading and exploration part, although that it doesn t match heavyweights like EVE, but you could do all that stuff.
That is a combination i never found elsewhere. The design has some problems too though, but I really think the need for playerskill in combat should be raised in next generation mmorpgs in order to give the players a chance to not only develop their characters but also themselves.
That is a combination i never found elsewhere. The design has some problems too though, but I really think the need for playerskill in combat should be raised in next generation mmorpgs in order to give the players a chance to not only develop their characters but also themselves.
beta-catenin
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- May 13, 2007
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I've been thinking about this as well and here's my 2 cents...
'Levels' and 'skills' are supposed to reflect your increasing abilities and experience. In current MMO's your level increases as you complete tasks and kill monsters. Thus, after killing 100 sewer rats you are now level 2 and thus your strength, agility, etc. get higher and you can now kill wolves. This is a feed-forward system, i.e. you need to put in the work (grind) in order to reap with rewards (access the higher level abilities).
What if the game were designed so that 'levels' and 'skills' were more like stats, simply reflecting your actual abilities at the game (giving you "feed-back"). For example, when shooting a bow, the game would record your hit %, it could take into account many factors like how far away the enemy is and how strong they are, if you were moving during the shot, etc... Thus your 'skill' with the bow would simply reflect how good of a shot you are. As you progress through the game you will naturally get better with practice and your skill will advance, allowing you to survive more difficult encounters, to advance your skill farther.
The same could apply to shooting out spells. I love the spell system in Oblivion, because you actually have to AIM your fireball. This added so much more challenge and excitement to the fight for a spellcaster. Furthermore, magic could require more then just a mouse click, maybe harder spells could be boosted with a synchronized mouse movement and keyboard combination.
Close combat could also benefit from this idea. I think blocking is an essential component of the fight, and should be dynamic and difficult. Let us swing the freaking sword with our mouse in real time, not just clicking to repeat the same swing animation. If the Wii can do it with Zelda, we should have it on the PC. The same goes for blocking. When an enemy is swinging a giant axe down onto my head, I am going to block in a different way then a sideswipe from a saber. My hit and block % can contribute to my sword and shield skills.
I apologize if this leveling system already exists in some game, but I have never encountered it (and would love to play it if it does exist).
'Levels' and 'skills' are supposed to reflect your increasing abilities and experience. In current MMO's your level increases as you complete tasks and kill monsters. Thus, after killing 100 sewer rats you are now level 2 and thus your strength, agility, etc. get higher and you can now kill wolves. This is a feed-forward system, i.e. you need to put in the work (grind) in order to reap with rewards (access the higher level abilities).
What if the game were designed so that 'levels' and 'skills' were more like stats, simply reflecting your actual abilities at the game (giving you "feed-back"). For example, when shooting a bow, the game would record your hit %, it could take into account many factors like how far away the enemy is and how strong they are, if you were moving during the shot, etc... Thus your 'skill' with the bow would simply reflect how good of a shot you are. As you progress through the game you will naturally get better with practice and your skill will advance, allowing you to survive more difficult encounters, to advance your skill farther.
The same could apply to shooting out spells. I love the spell system in Oblivion, because you actually have to AIM your fireball. This added so much more challenge and excitement to the fight for a spellcaster. Furthermore, magic could require more then just a mouse click, maybe harder spells could be boosted with a synchronized mouse movement and keyboard combination.
Close combat could also benefit from this idea. I think blocking is an essential component of the fight, and should be dynamic and difficult. Let us swing the freaking sword with our mouse in real time, not just clicking to repeat the same swing animation. If the Wii can do it with Zelda, we should have it on the PC. The same goes for blocking. When an enemy is swinging a giant axe down onto my head, I am going to block in a different way then a sideswipe from a saber. My hit and block % can contribute to my sword and shield skills.
I apologize if this leveling system already exists in some game, but I have never encountered it (and would love to play it if it does exist).
It actually happened about two generations ago...
www.planetside.com
Yeah I've heard of the game but never played it. It was the first attempt at what is expected to be the future of online gaming and it did some things well and others not. The biggest issue, as far as I can tell, in that game is the manditory multiplayer instead of MMORPG, single player or multiplayer until you get deep into the game, then multiplayer only. I think this will come around with a MMOFPS with AI characters (Think Halo story mode co-op with persistent worlds MMO style). I have yet to see that.
Planetside proved that its feasible and close but I see that as more of a proof of concept than the smash hit that needs to happen for the new genres to catch on.
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