I see absolutely no reason to go Intel now

pauldh · Mar 13, 2004

Dancing around? Why not make that choice when it saves you $40 buying the 2.8C? It is still a great performing chip. Who takes into consideration saving some money on one component that could go toward another? Who doesn't? Anyone who buys the A64 3000+ is also making that choice compared to a faster chip. The 3000+ isn't True high end, it's the value in high end. There are better gaming chips for sure, but it is a great value.

Also, You just shot down any arguement for owning a radeon 9600XT, FX5700U, FX5900XT, or FX5900, as all are just a little below the R9800 Pro in price, so who would buy one of those? Or to use your reasoning, Nobody who plays games would make that decision. Only someone # dancing huh? fact is, unless you buy a at least a radeon 9800 pro to put in your fancy A64 3000+, a 2.8C will outgame it hands down with a R9800 Pro in it. So I guess you have to drop your NV fanboyism when jumping on your AMD. How can you argue that a 2.8C is not a valid option when it is cheaper, and performs so well, and has far superior mobo choices. And don't give me the because it is 32-bit crap, as by the time 64-bit aps come out you would be better off waiting for socket 939 anyway, which is what i have said for a long time about A64. Your aguements make little sense when you hail the NV FX line as superior to ATI because of driver support ( the whole picture not just fps and IQ, but NV drivers too.) Yet, you push A64 based on gaming fps ALONE not taking a superior chipset, way better mobos, HT, incredible memory bandwidth, and better media encoding performance into consideration! Again, I am level headed, your a fanboy. I'll use all 4 of these companies when they best make sense, you'll preach AMD / NV til judgement day.

Your expert Anandtech had felt for months the 2.8C has been THE VALUE LEADER. <A HREF="http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1941&p=12" target="_new"> Look Here </A> Now he feels the same about the A64 3000+. Arguing an A64 is a faster gaming chip than a P4 2.8C is valid. Aguing a 2.8C i865 is a better platform that comes with a rock solid chipset and loads of great motherboard choices is also valid. Both offer great value. If all you do is game, A64 is faster. If you media encode at all, P4 2.8C is faster. And remember to claim the performance numbers from this test, you have to go VIA, not your favorite NV chipsets. The Via solution is faster. And NV3 has not proved it is worthy of the same praise as NF2 anway. The only reason you can't admit Intel P4's are valid option is based on pure fanboyism, not fact or reality. And sticking to NV for your so called driver edge is a joke if a a superior platform with rock solid high performance chipset and great mobos means nothing to you. By the way, I'd sure like to see these tests re-done when both chips are overclocked to the max. Face it add P4 2.8C to your valid buying list between XP2500+ and A64 3000+ or your just a fanboy, which cancels out anything you really have to say.

And again, I am not Anti A64, I just want to wait before I buy one. There is nothing an A64 will do for me now that this P4 2.6C won't do. Except give me bragging rights in a few gaming benchmarks. Not worth the cost for that, nor what i'd give up selling this rig (I am on the P4 now as my wife took over the other box after lunch.) Why would you push an XP2500+ so bad, if there are games it just can't play well. It is far slower than a P4 2.8C. SHoot it is far slower than a 2.4C, which will OC just as well too. Even OC'ed to a 3200+ the P4 2.8C stock is quicker in most tests including games. And if you are going to OC the P4's will do that super well also. Do you think waiting for socket 939 makes sense? Read the quote from your expert at Anandtech below before you answer. Hmm from high end to low end in a short time, seems waiting makes sense.

"The upcoming Socket 939, which will be used for the new version of the Athlon64 FX, is expected to become the dominant AMD socket. Socket 939 will allow the common unbuffered DDR memory (that most already own) to be used in Dual-Channel with the revised FX processor. Many speculate that the 754 will move to low-end or be discontinued after a short period of co-existing with Socket 939."

So go ahead and push the 754 A64's as such a great high end solution to buy NOW. Too bad it will be turned into low end soon, where you'll have to buy a 939 mobo and cpu just to keep current. If you ever hope to own Nvidia's best video card coming soon, it won't plug into th current A64 mobos tested here. Yah, that 64-bit thing is such a big reward for you guys right now. What a plus for the future. :frown: Again I wouldn't upgrade until my P4 2.6C lets me down, or your XP2500+ lets you down, or Socket 939 comes out. That's my opinion and I'll stick to it.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430wattEdited by pauldh on 03/13/04 02:20 PM.

Zoron · Mar 13, 2004

I agree with you on ECS, Crash. I resell computers that are built around ECS motherboards. They are crap... and not just because they are low-end without a lot of features. Anyone recall the faulty capacitor issues? Well out of the 8 boards that I have seen so far with this issue... 6 of them have been ECS boards.

Until a better board maker starts making SiS boards, I'd definately avoid them. I am not at all impressed with ECS boards thus far.

 If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it.

kinney · Mar 14, 2004

I just dont see where video cards come into play here.
Introduces stuff into the story that has no place and creates a 'fuzzy' argument atmosphere.

I'd prefer to talk on my level, as in, points 1 and 2 in my post above.
Neither of those have been shot down and I'm still waiting.

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Zoron · Mar 14, 2004

I think he was making a point on the whole AGP vs PCI Express issue... though I'm pretty sure it'll be a non issue for at least another year. I can't see AGP dying that quickly.

 If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it.

phial · Mar 14, 2004

So leave!!

The world doesn't revolve around you, P4man, as you think it does! You should honestly get a life! Your one sided ness, attitudes, bias, among other things is not needed here. You just keep proving that you are an agitator above all & love to here yourself talk!

Leave, just like you did before your name change, IMO!

why dont you die you old ass. racist hate monger

and IMO means "in my opinion" i see you put that after every post no matter what the context

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phial · Mar 14, 2004

Unless you actually wanted a good motherboard, then A64 isn't an option right now

altho the rest of what you said is pretty much true, i dotn quite agree with this 100%. it is true that A64 mobos arent mature whatsoever, but speed increases probably wont be the same as going from a KT133 to a nforce2 ultra400...

look at the benches of the nforce 250. its identical to the via board. why? probably because the motherboard does basically nothing now ,except house the card slots/periphrial controllers (ide, sata etc).. so we will probably see some nicer boards in the future, but the great thing with the A64 is that the motherboard seems to not influence performance at all. this is an EXCELLENT thing, meaning that your system is probably running at its full capacity, not being limited by drivers/crappy chipsets

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pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

PCIe comes into play too, but only because I want to wait to jump on A64 when it makes sense and better 939 boards come out.

But No actually I am claiming that since we are talking about best value cpu's here not sheer top of the line, a $40 price point is valid. Not sure about him, but when building for value, $40 saved in one place can make a world of a difference put into another component. Keeping the system price the same. To me that isn't clouding the issue as I don't think A64 offers that much more that it is worth the extra $40 and sacrificing a better motherboard and chipset. Come 939, I may change that opinion altogether. And from building numerous systems per month, I know what that $40 can do elsewhere for me.

Besides there is a little side note with Kinney. It comes from many previous discussions with kinney claiming NV superiority and pushing their cards. I just like to point out that the preticular cards he pushes as great value when paired with the A64 he pushes, is slower than what i am suggesting for the same price. At this level value means everything to me. We aren't talking about money is no object true performance machines here. if so, the A64 3000+ or P4 2.8C wouldn't be in the discusion.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

Xeon · Mar 14, 2004

why dont you die you old ass. racist hate monger

Oh my...

Xeon

Scratch Here To Reveal Prize

pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

OK, 1) you know i like XP2500+/NF2. Sheer value. I like it because it's an $80 retail cpu now and it helps me sell systems. I also like the NF2 chipset and rate it with my favorites the i865pe and 440BX. But owning both, i know that the XP2500+ is far slower than the 2.6C and even overclocked to 3200+ speeds it trades benchies only. And the 2.6C would OC far beyond that performace too. But still, given the cost, it gives performance to those who can't afford more. I know if the 2.4C was priced the same, I would switch and build IS7/2.4C's instead. Much better performance. This isn't the case and probably never will be, so NF2 XP2500+ is the next best thing.

2) High end:
for gamers only OK, A64 3200+ on k8T800.
For enthusiasts who love stability, the best motherboards , Overclocking, and performace all around, P4 3.2C
For Video editing and media encoding, P4 3.2C

3) You avoid all other info because you know I am right. I point to your favorite experts saying things that agree with me, and you push the same points and avoid all other issues. You claim Anand is the king know-it-all, yet you dismiss the 2.8C that his site has raved about. Why, narrowminded fanboyism. Comes out in 99% of what you say.

4) I think you are avoiding the most important category altogether by pushing point 1 and 2. And that is the category that most makes sense now. It is a terrible time to buy a TRUE high end machine. The machines to buy now are midrange or value/performance machines. Why, because you aren't spending a huge premium to get marginally faster hardware that will soon be outclassed or fased out. I do not have any need to buy this kind of hardware, and especially now couldn't recommend it. So like your expert Anand says, I think the P4 2.8C i865pe is one of the best buys right now. Stable, feature loaded, and fast in all areas. The 2.8C is the same price as the 2.6C now. Also, for gamers I think the a64 3000+ offers great fps for the money. Although I have yet to see a need for more fps than a 2.6C can give. If/when I do, I'll swap in my PC4000 and OC the 2.6C.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

Crashman · Mar 14, 2004

I'm all for the nForce3 250. What I'm not for is buying a VIA chipset board right now based on it only having a few minor quirks, then finding out later that it has major bugs.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

I'll admit NF3 250 paired with A64 2800+ or 3000+ has me very interested. Not as much as anticipating Socket 939 and say a A64 3500+.

I'll also admit Intel needs to answer back to A64. P4 "C"'s i865pe's are outstanding in my book, but unless prescott shapes up, or Intel surprises us with something great, AMD will really start to make Intel look bad.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

kinney · Mar 14, 2004

Ok fine, you didnt shoot down my two points at all..
in fact you finally agreed with number 1... albeit without actually saying it because you seem to have some kind of strange sense of pride with your hardware.

I'll catalog it here.
My point-
1. Best bang for buck- 2500+

Your admission I'm correct.

1) you know i like XP2500+/NF2. Sheer value.

and so on.. but cut it short.
Thank you for not spreading misinformation by continuing to disagree and create a bunch of hypothetical situations with video card buying decisions, referring to the 3000+XP (which I think someone woudl have to be crazy to buy personally), as if that chip was part of my original point.
Talk CPUs, this is a CPU forum.. christ.

2) High end:
for gamers only OK, A64 3200+ on k8T800.
For enthusiasts who love stability, the best motherboards , Overclocking, and performace all around, P4 3.2C
For Video editing and media encoding, P4 3.2C

This is complete FUD.
A64 "only OK" by your standards.
You just lost your credibility.
And in favor of what?
The- "choice for those who LOVE stability, the BEST motherboards, overclocking, and performance all around"...????
What a loaded way to share your POV.

Theres so much misinformation and one-sidedness here its suffocating me.

Where to start.
Stability? Since when were A64s unstable? WTF?
You're right about one thing, they are solely the kings of media encoding.
And A64 has certainly closed that gap significantly, starting at $200 (and rumored to go lower with a 2800+ A64).. the P4C is simply outclassed.
Or we could spend $281 on a 3.2Ghz P4C.
Right.
You must be braindead.

I point to your favorite experts saying things that agree with me, and you push the same points and avoid all other issues. You claim Anand is the king know-it-all, yet you dismiss the 2.8C that his site has raved about. Why, narrowminded fanboyism. Comes out in 99% of what you say.

No, I said the 2500+ has the most bang for buck.. the most performance per dollar ratio is in its favor.
And BTW, I like Anandtech but they dont hold the entire enthusiast community on their shoulders.. their idea of value might not be "FPS per dollar".
2.8C isnt a bad value.. but who in their right mind would buy that for $170 when you can get a A64 3000+ for $200????
Or say that for pure bang for buck, the 2.8C beats the 2500+?
If you want to talk overclocking (since you keep bringing it up)... since when was a 2500+, let alone the mobile version for $80 not overclock to astronomical proportions?? Have you even seen what the mobile chip does?
We're talking 2.7ghz on air or maybe more. Thats crazy for a AXP, and ridiculously fast performance.
Much faster than your puny 2.8C, o/c'd or not.
Wait, disclaimer: not in media encoding.
LOL
Heck, the non-mobile does 3200+ or more speed on air cooling.

You must be drunk sir.

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kinney · Mar 14, 2004

I agree with all your sentiments on VIA.
I used the KT133/133A/266/266A/333 and contrary to what most people say around here, I had trouble with the 266/266A nearly as much as the 133/133A personally.
Only the 333 started to be quite a bit better for me.

But that was enough for me, I wont buy VIA. I'd buy SIS before VIA personally. Well the later stuff at least, and my experience with SIS is much less so I'd be more willing to 'give them a shot'. Just need to find a good board manufacturer. My SIS735 was an ECS and had many chronic problems and ended up losing all my $$ on it. But it was ECS fault in my specific situation, not SIS.

I also stand by respecting technology ownership rights, like what you pointed out about VIA not abiding by.
Its because honestly, much of their engineering has been inferior.

And as far as the VIA PCI bus that plagued so many generations of their product.
I was greatly affected by this (of course), and from my research what the problem was is that VIA did not implement optional, yet popular (meaning Intel supported it) additions to their PCI bus that Creative Labs decided to take advantage of with their products. I used to remember what that feature was but for the life of me I cant remember ATM.

I dont think either company is Grade-A.. so I put blame on both.
Creative for just being general a$$clowns (many of their cards did put unnecessary bandwidth on the PCI bus, so if a PCI bus did have a flaw.. these losers could find it) and VIA for not following Intels lead, what did they expect?
IIRC this illusive feature (which if challenged I suppose I'll have to go lookup damnit and I'm feeling much to lazy right now), was long supported by Intel (like P3 days).
It wasnt like an overnight addition Intel did leaving VIA with their pants down on purpose.

So there you have it, stories on why you should generally avoid those two lackluster companies products.
Not that they dont have their merits like all do.
VIAs a pathetic company that rose due to the nearly unchallenged ownership of the Athlon chipset market for quite some time.
Though not a motherboard chipset issue, VIA DOES have a very nice sound chip out now (Envy24HT), which is actually the best available IMO. <A HREF="http://sang.dj/ego/PCG_Review.jpg" target="_new">Scan of the short, to the point PC Gamer review</A>

Yet, no one would deny that Nvidia coming into the Athlon chipset market was not a godsend for users and AMD.
If they did... *fwwwwtttt*- credibility out the window.

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phial · Mar 14, 2004

id buy the nforce3 250 over the Via board any day. they lost my trust as well (i used to build systems, also back in the KT333 days by coincidence)

add the fact that the nforce board locks the PCI clock, you have a superior board.

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pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

If you want to talk overclocking (since you keep bringing it up)... since when was a 2500+, let alone the mobile version for $80 not overclock to astronomical proportions?? Have you even seen what the mobile chip does?
We're talking 2.7ghz on air or maybe more. Thats crazy for a AXP, and ridiculously fast performance.

ROFLMBO, thanks for educating me on the mobile XP2500+. I started the <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=171177#171177" target="_new"> thread </A> Einstein! And I own 2 of them myself. One stable at 2.4GHz, One stable at 2.6GHz. Who's credibility is hurting now?

You keep doing this to yourself over and over and over. And by the way, even at 2.6GHZ it isn't "much faster" in real life aps than a 2.8C, especially an overclocked 2.8C. So again, you make assumptions that you argue as fact, without any experience to back it up. My 2.6GHz mobile XP kicks butt at <A HREF="http://www.ravedesigns.com/images/sisoftsandra.JPG" target="_new"> Sisoft Sandra. </A> Creams an overclocked A64 3200+. But which is faster? Which games better? I think even you could figure that out. And the mobile XP2500+ is $98-$100 not $80. The desktop 2500+ is $80 retail , the Mobile 2400+ is $77.

OK, I was about to let you go, but you just keep asking for more. I am not just now admitting the XP2500+ is the value king, I've said that dozens of times before, over and over. You just proved you don't read what I say or lack the ability to read and comprehend more than 2 sentences. Shoot, in the past month I have bought 5 CPU's, and they are 2 retail XP2500+, 2 OEM Mobile XP2500+, and one retail XP2400+ for a KT333 upgrade. Not one Intel, not one A64. Yet You are educating me so I can finally admit now that they are a great value. LOL Get real.

And as far as my "OK". That was a misunderstanding. I was saying OK, as I'll give in an answer to your question more bluntly, which by the way fully agrees with what i have said in the past. I meant, OK.... the A64 is top end for gaming. Not the A64 is OK for gaming. I won't jump on you for that as I can Almost see where you made that mistake.

Lastly, why not mention the whole system in a CPU forum. What good is a CPU without a mobo, ram, and video card? can we mention a game in a Video card forum? When we talk about getting the most for out value on a CPU, is mentioning the rest of the system and what the money saved can buy component wise, really so out of place? Let me answer for you. No it isn't? As an A64 processor sitting on a desk aint worth much to anyone buy you maybe. And the whole system is key to having any performance and stability. And I for one am not loaded enough not to care where I save money on a build. Nor would I not care if i were loaded. Sheesh, give it a rest already.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

darko21 · Mar 14, 2004

Re: That's more like it. You admited it is AN option, not the ONLY option. I can agree with that. I too admit it is an option and have often said i wouldn't talk someone out of A64 who had there heart set on it. Especially those who are aware of Socket 939, and still want to upgrade now.

My responce to you...That's more like it. You admited it is AN option. and a valid one at that. People are always better off waiting that's just never going to change. I agree Nforce3-250 939 would be the best setup for a64 but by the same argument you could try and stop a person from buying a p-4 3.2 system today cause Nforce3-250 939 is just around the corner.

I do agree the title of the thread is nothing but flame bait.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

darko21 · Mar 14, 2004

Re: i820 worked great with RAMBUS, I've never heard any complaints. It was the MTH for SDRAM people had problems with, Intel was forced to release it, then recalled it, not only replacing the boards, but providing you a brand new RAMBUS board with a 128MB module, to replace your MTH corrupted SDRAM unit.

Crash I see nothing wrong with many Nforce3-150 boards lots of features great performance (I have seen reviews and VIA only beats it ever so slightly because of the 600 hypertransport) It's a reputable company, and as far as I know zero ethic problems at least as far as America should be concerned.

I see nothing wrong with Via TODAY. The Via chipsets for the A64 have been out and about for a while now and I have heard nothing bad. Yes when going back in time a few years there were some real issues but I as far as I know Via has got there act together. I have not heard any issues about Via in quite some time. Companies do change. Please show a link or something showing how bad the CURRENT a64 chipsets from Via are.

Crash imagine some clown saying avoid Intel chipsets because of the i820 rambus boards. oh yeah just to clarify so as to avoid all confusion I’ll rephrase that for ya. Just like I did last month, i820 rambus board that did not work correctly with sdram as it was meant to.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

Sure Darko, A64 3000+ is an option for gamers. I will clearly admit that. It's a Fast option too! Faster in gaming than any of my systems. Although again, for me personally, the current crop of motherboards don't cut it. Once NForce 3 250 is available, A64 looks a little more appealing to me. Even before Socket 939. NForce 3 250 supports the current Athlon 64 socket 754 chips and the socket 939 variation, although I have read that it will be be better in 939 form. I was just talking with a fellow geek buddy of mine after church today about how we both are itching to build an NF3 250 - A64. Just need the right customers to allow us to afford getting our hands on them without it being from our own pockets. I am not a fanboy, and am infinately more open minded than the starter of this thread. I just won't build an A64 K8T800 or NForce 3 150 based system when i feel AMD's roadmap looks to good not to wait. At least wait for NF3 250 socket 754 mobos to use with the current chips. Those should be availablt fairly soon. The A64 2800+ will soon be out too. I am anxious to see those prices. But I still know I'll wait for Socket 939 before I'll own one. 64 bit gives you nothing now, and upgrading my P4 2.6C IS7 to A64 now would be idiotic; it' offers me nothing my system can't do now but claim benchmark superiority. And that isn't worth 2 cents to me honestly. If a customer wants an A64 system real soon, I'll be glad to build him an A64 NF3 250 system next month when they are available and I have been educated as to what is a great stable mobo to use. I'd enjoy that big time. But I also doubt I'd be willing to build them a K8T800 based system today. Nor any of the other currently available Socket 754 mobos.

And I really wouldn't buy a P4 - 3.2C either now, I like the 2.8C though because of pricing and the motherboard choices. Abit IS7's are cheap, fast, OC friendly, feature loaded, and stable. And there are plenty other i865pe or i875p mobos to choose from too.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

darko21 · Mar 14, 2004

Re: it' offers me nothing my system can't do now but claim benchmark superiority. And that isn't worth 2 cents to me honestly.

What about security such as buffer overflow protection with xp-sp2? does your p4-2.6C offer you that. This could be most appealing to many buyers today since anyone buying today would almost certainly be using sp2 very soon.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

pauldh · Mar 14, 2004

So is it worth me upgrading my current gaming rig for that? [rolleyes]

And for other people upgrading from any fairly modern P4 533 or 800 Bus system, or Athlon XP system, why not wait for NF3 250? Can I ask you what is wrong with waiting a month or even 3 months? Shoot, I wouldn't recommend someone with a K7S5A XP2000+ system upgrade to any of these right now, unless their mobo died all of a sudden, or they want to start video editing, or they find a game that just lags too much to tolerate waiting. Sure then upgrade. But not because forum goers brag benchie scores or trick you into thinking you need a 64-bit cpu immediately.

If you simply must upgrade, and just can not wait one single day, go ahead and buy a NF2 XP2500+, i865pe P4 2.8C, or K8T800 A64 3000+. Whichever you can afford and depending on if it is for games, media encoding, etc. Just be prepared to watch many other people way outperform, out feature, or possible have more stability than yourself. And be prepared to upgrade again if/when PCIe video cards and components become the must have items. or at least the desired items.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

darko21 · Mar 14, 2004

Re: So is it worth me upgrading my current gaming rig for that? [rolleyes]

Not if you don't feel it's important to you. But to someone who is upgrading today it could be very important maybe so important it's the decisive factor. Just trying to show your statement below is not the whole story.

it' offers me nothing my system can't do now but claim benchmark superiority. And that isn't worth 2 cents to me honestly.

Re: If you simply must upgrade, and just can not wait one single day, go ahead and buy a NF2 XP2500+, i865pe P4 2.8C, or K8T800 A64 3000+.

I agree it's best to wait it always will be. there are big improvments comming soon for a64. So lets agree we are discusing people that need to update today (for whatever reason) this wait wait thing is valid but not for someone needing to ugrade now.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

Crashman · Mar 14, 2004

I fully expect AMD to make Intel look bad for a while, just as SiS makes VIA look bad...but in both cases, fans of a brand will ignore the facts staring them in the face.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

ECS had terrible quality control issues with the K7S5A, but those who actually got fully working boards reported 0 chipset problems. Wow, that's fairly impressive.

SiS also had the 645 which was problem free, I've known many owners of the P4S533.

SiS released the 648 with special provisions for the memory bus, which most manufacturers screwed up, Gigabyte had the best 648 board, Asus the worst.

The 655 was great, but I've heard of problems with some of the OTHER hardware on MSI's version. Driver issues mainly. But when you see only one manufacturer having a certain problem, you can isolate it to that manufacturer, not the chipset.

The 745 was a great chipset, but most boards didn't include such appreciated features as vCore adjustment, mainly because SiS sells cheap, so manufacturers use cheap boards.

So far the only problems I've seen with SiS chipsets are onboard video problems. Solution: Get a board without onboard video.

nVidia did a less than perfect job with the nForce1, but fixed it with the nForce2. They did a less than admirable job on the NF3 150, but now the 250 looks like it will be the comeback product once again.

SiS does things the hard way, they actually PAY LICENCE FEES for borrowed technology, and when they found a production method was similar to the UMC foundries, they settled the dispute imediately, at great cost. They just might be "too honest" for this business.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

I hate to see one company get a stranglehold on the industry, but since VIA already has that, I guess it's OK to transfer that power to nVidia.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

But see, you are totally taking me out of context for arguements sake. That statement about offering me nothing is quoted below. I have a rock solid stable P4 2.6C with a radeon 9800 Pro. I am 100% happy with that system now. Why in the world would I upgrade? What could it offer me now to do so? That is what I said, look below. Please read it and do not ignore the important parts that I put in red this time. And this all falls in line with the better solutions right around the corner. If all technological advancements were going to halt for the next 2 years, it might be a different story. But that is so far from the case. Would you also tell people that a radeon 9800XT or FX5950 is also a great option right now? Shall I trade in my 9800 Pro? What about a Ti4200 even. No, it's a horrible time to buy those cards now. But so many A64 owners or supporters feel so threatened to defend their chips, that they lose perspective of the bigger picture. And they can't even see when someone agrees with them if along with the agreement, there is one statement that could possibly be twisted into making AMD look bad. I'm not a fanboy, don't get defensive and feel I am knocking AMD.

Anyway, Here is what I said:
"The A64 2800+ will soon be out too. I am anxious to see those prices. But I still know I'll wait for Socket 939 before I'll own one. 64 bit gives you nothing now, and upgrading my P4 2.6C IS7 to A64 now would be idiotic; it offers me nothing my system can't do now but claim benchmark superiority. And that isn't worth 2 cents to me honestly."

And for the small percentage of people who NEED to upgrade, I gave you my suggestions. I agree with you A64 3000+ is a fast option. But the fact remains that the HUGE majority of people reading these forums do not NEED to upgrade at all. And pushing the issue like it's a must is rediculous. Can't you understand that side of the story too? Hence, probably 9 out of 10 readers in this forum are better off waiting a little as May and June are exciting hardware months to look forward to. I really feel this is a bigger issue than argueing what is the best right now. I'll gladly talk about what is the best hardware/platforms for different uses. Or even moreso, what is the best value for someone looking to build now. But I won't ignore the obvious that buying high end right now makes little sense for most people. It's a worse investment now than it normally is.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

I see absolutely no reason to go Intel now

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