I see absolutely no reason to go Intel now

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

On an ENTHUSIAST level board, having such features as PCI and AGP locks used to be a MUST, until people started defending VIA for not having one. Also, there are RAM timing issues which seem to prevent the use of low latency memory, which you would think was related to the on-CPU memory controller until you find out that the problem does NOT exist on the 755.

What "enthusiast" would want to build a system with such glaring flaws? Only one hard headed enough to buy whatever is available this instant, instead of demanding something better.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
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darko21 · Mar 15, 2004

Sorry for all the confusion Pauldh. I was never trying to convince you to upgade your current system. Yes I think that would be a waste of money right now (I'd say you are good for a while yet)

Who was trying to convince you to upgrade? that would be some un-sound advice. point the guy out and I'll help ya rip him a new one 🙂

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

I fully expect AMD to make Intel look bad for a while, just as SiS makes VIA look bad...but in both cases, fans of a brand will ignore the facts staring them in the face.

Yeah it sure does look that way between AMD/Intel. It doesn't upset me who is winning, I just like to see each company remain competitive and push each other so we all benifet. I'll admit in video cards I am partial to ATI and would like to see them come out on top. But I want close battles and like the benifits of lead changes. But I'll definately admit it if NV comes out on top, and I'll use whatever card gives me the best value. You'll never see me defend ATI to the death as NV Boys have been doing with the FX line.

And about the fans, that is so true and most frustrating. I haven't been involved in this forum long enough to realize that i can't talk sense into fanboys. I was on the PCMech forums alot back in the late 1990's, but honestly lost the time to stay there. I avoided arguements then though i don't rememebr them being as lame as here. Anyway, I feel there must be some logic in these fanboys and maybe I can open their eyes. I guess i am totally wrong in that, but just not fed up enough yet to quit trying. My main concern isn't convincing them, it is protecting other innocent people from being sucked into their Cult.

Anyway, your logic makes alot of sense to me. I don't know your past here on THGC, but it is strange when I here people accuse you of being anti AMD or a fanboy. Amazes me honestly. It amazes me when people ignore 90% of what I say, just to attack a quote that threatens them in some way. Oh well, i type too much and pay the price for trying. In the end it's all still fun.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

darko21 · Mar 15, 2004

Re: On an ENTHUSIAST level board

So you think it's a great option if not overclocking?

Re: PCI and AGP locks used to be a MUST

My Nforce2 ultra has no agp lock, but locks are very good when overclocking. Do all A64 chipsets have unlockable pci agp?

Re: there are RAM timing issues which seem to prevent the use of low latency memory

I thought it was only THG testing that had this problem please correct me if I'm wrong but did not the other review sites have no probs with low latency ram.

Re: glaring flaws

a little dramatic arent we

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

I argue simply to keep my skills honed. I know there's a book of wisdom that says (paraphrased), 'if you argue with a fool, you both look foolish, a wise man keeps his mouth shut'. But at the risk of looking foolish, I still like to keep my skills honed. You never know when your ability to argue may save your life, look at what happend to Socrates!

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

If you're not an enthusiast, the ECS 755-A2 is a great board to choose, so VIA still looses. I seem to forget the basic buyers...simply because this is an enthusiast forum!

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

Oh, No problem i know you weren't suggesting that. And I didn't mean to imply you were. Nor do I have a gripe with you in anyway. If you own an A64, I hope you enjoy it and have no troubles at all. I was just defending what i said and wanted you to know why I said it. I just tend to think that many people push the hot product ignoring the bigger picture. To me the big picture says wait a bit if you can. I have had discusions here with people who have upgaded XP2500+ @ 2.2GHZ OC's to A64, and defend their upgrade like it was a must for them. Then they get bent out of shape if I suggest they had a good system and should have waited a few months for a Socket 939 NF3 250 rig instead. I'm not attacking their new system by saying that, just questioning their logic I guess. Once they start acting like nothing shy of A64 is worth owning, it's hard for me not to respond, and usually in the form of a long book.

And things are little different with Kinney and I, as we have a strange relationship here that started almost as soon as i came to this forum. It's really all just in fun and I am not offended by him and doubt he is or at least hope he isn't offended by me. His logic (or lack there of )does crack me up and he has some good 1 liners sometimes too. Again, unfortunatley I guess other people get sucked into our discussions not knowing the history. Probably not at all helping the quality of this forum, I apologize. It's just fun. He is just such an instigator, and fully admits it. I couldn't stay out of this thread only because it was him throwing out the flamebait. And i think if you read the first time I posted in this thread, and all the posts before it, you can see I immediately agreed on XP250+ and XP3000+. I just defended P4 2.8C since I feel it is a great option still today and priced just like the 2.4 or 2.6, it is priced right also. And again as stated so many times, it is current A64 motherboards in light of the new ones soon coming out (don't skip that last part) that is my only A64 gripe. The CPU is fast, I highly doubt it if I won't own one before the end of the Summer. Not because I need it, but because I can't stay away from advancements for long. Too much fun. Anyway, to try an understand our fued, and if you are truely bored, go back and read each time in this thread we directly responded to each other. It's the same in many other topics too. Again, i type an aweful lot, but it's all worth it for fun in his case as he just gets into so much trouble when ignoring most of what I post.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

kinney · Mar 15, 2004

ROFLMBO, thanks for educating me on the mobile XP2500+. I started the thread Einstein! And I own 2 of them myself. One stable at 2.4GHz, One stable at 2.6GHz. Who's credibility is hurting now?

Um, not mine.
I dont check this forum everyday for every new message ya nerd.

Lastly, why not mention the whole system in a CPU forum. What good is a CPU without a mobo, ram, and video card? can we mention a game in a Video card forum?

Because you were using the video card to illustrate how a 2.8C could be a better value if you combo it with video card X and the XP3000+ (which I would never recommend to anyone personally) with video card X...kinda a offshot point IMO.. but whatever.
I just wanted to compare CPU to CPU, not get all these hypothetical situations involved.

I guess what I would like to state to you is that A) I see the 2500+ as the best pure "FPS per dollar" winner. And B) For me, or my recommendation for a top end processor would definitely be a A64 3000+, or higher A64 if budget permits.
I just dont see the 3.2P4C being viable anymore compared to whats out there for competition.. personally.
Sorry if you disagree, its ok my man.

Its been fun debating with you as usual. I think you just like to argue with me either because you find me "amusing" (what a nice thing for you to say about me lol), or you have a bone to pick wit me.
I'm your man Paul, I'm the one you have to shoot down... come and get some of this beef!!!! ITS ON!!!

kinney <- Always outnumbered, Never Outgunned

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kinney · Mar 15, 2004

Your knowledge of the industry always surprises me crash. Really.
From the stuff I do know, you are right on always as well.
Gratz, you get one of Omids homemade cookies

My ECS K7S5A never had any chipset problems like you said.. I found the 735 rock solid.. much better than the VIA alternatives that I'd been using before.

I have no problem with SIS, when I said I'd stay away from older stuff I meant I'd stay away from stuff 'much' older than the 735.
I think SIS is fine, I'd buy a A64 SIS based board. Much sooner than VIA. I dont even care if the VIAs faster.

I go for stability/compatibility in my hardware. And that old 735 was solid, my board was an early revision that IIRC, did not give enough driver impedence (?) to the processor and it would lockup.. it was fixable by doing some very fine point soldering work.
Work that I didnt have equipment for and only a cousin of mine did and I didnt want to go thru all that trouble of making him do it.

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Cybercraig · Mar 15, 2004

Incredible Overclockable CPU

AMD XP 2500 Barton Core

(overclocked upto 2.7ghz!,Perfect Stable, with my rig!!)

I've been using this cpu for three months and getting rid of this in order to get a new pentium 4 system. As you can see from screen shot, it's been running incredible amazing w/ my wc setup, abit nf7, corsair xms pc3500. I can't guarantee it will work that well on your system but there shouln't be any problem w/ ,at least, 3200+ w/ deafult voltage.Fan is not included and I guarantee again DOA

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

I guess this add from E-Bay about says it all! You get the much "revered" Barton XP-2500 stable at 2.7ghz, and you want to sell it for $68.00 to get a P-4! ROFLMAO! Enough of this pointless bickering! ROFLMAO!

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds! Now, let's eat!"

Crashman · Mar 15, 2004

ECS replaced a bunch of boards like that, you should have gotten a free replacement.

Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!
Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!

kinney · Mar 15, 2004

I ended up selling it to a friend for cheap.. they dont contact me for a replacement heh.. my friend knew in full the problem with it too... so it turned out well.

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kinney · Mar 15, 2004

What a moron that guy is.

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pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

I dont check this forum everyday for every new message ya nerd.

So is that your way of admitting you were wrong or just claiming that your ignorance supports your opinions? Shame you missed it that one day, as it was a 3 week discussion with over 750 views and 8 pages of replys. And besides, I had made mention of the Mobile XP2500+ in the second sentence I typed in this thread. And I was talking to you at the time. So why did you feel the need to edumacate me on the XP2500+ ?

I have been praising them as much as anyone else.

Because you were using the video card to illustrate how a 2.8C could be a better value if you combo it with video card X and the XP3000+ (which I would never recommend to anyone personally) with video card X...kinda a offshot point IMO.. but whatever.

No actually go back and read, I said retail 2.8C is $40 cheaper than a retail A64 3000+ , NOT XP3000+. So it is valid to argue as you say one chip, I say the other + $40 for a video card upgrade. If you honestlty thought I said XP3000+, then I see why you ?'ed it. Yes, that would be a pointless arguement. But you misread it. Point is I had already mentioned way earlier that the faster Athlon XP's are a waste. So I still Say I'd go with the better mobo, chipset, P4 2.8C and use the extra $40 to help pay for the Radeon 9800 Pro. I would do this without question over a A64 K8T800 or NF3 150. Especially if buying one of those knocks the Radeon 9800 Pro out of budget and makes me have to choose a R9600XT, FX5700U, FX5900XT. Does this at all make sense to you? Even after that I still said A64 is a good fast choice for gamers, I just didn't like the mobos now. Not with better ones so close.

I guess what I would like to state to you is that A) I see the 2500+ as the best pure "FPS per dollar" winner. And B) For me, or my recommendation for a top end processor would definitely be a A64 3000+, or higher A64 if budget permits.
I just dont see the 3.2P4C being viable anymore compared to whats out there for competition.. personally.
Sorry if you disagree, its ok my man.

The funny thing is, I never did disagree. The very first thing I did do was AGREE with you and the others about those two chips. I also pointed out the P4 2.8C / i865pe has it's place on the best value list now right in with those chips. I do disagree now and feel that P4 3.2C is as good an option as the faster A64's. Both are bad options IMO. But if A64 3200+ is a valid gamers option, then P4 3.2C is clearly as valid a Media Encoder's option. If you origininally had made one reference about my support for AMD, instead of bashing my Intel suggestion, all of this would have ended alot earlier and i wouldn't have had to "school you" (to use your lingo).

So you say XP2500+ and A64 3000+ or higher, I say XP2500+ Mobile XP2500+, P4 2.8C, and A64 3000+. We agreed. Why couldn't you have left it at that? Just because I added one Intel option to a list of AMD options? Comeon.

Again, look below to my very first response in this thread, back when it was all anti Intel talk except for 1 person. Did I bash your choices, or just add one more to offer a less fanboy driven opinion? I'll quote it in red below so you can read it without having to page up. No hard feelings Kinney, I'm on your side, we both look for great value. I just also look beyond AMD and NV.

Once the NF3 250's are available, then A64 looks even better. Once socket 939, they seem to make total sense.

I said: 

Are you seriously asking or just your usual stir and shake? I sure agree that XP2500+ and Mobile XP2500+ are the most value per dollar. And A64 is considered the gamers chip now. But a retail 2.8C is $40 cheaper than a retail A64 3000+. No it can't keep up with A64 in games but will for video editing and other media encoding. Hyperthreading is still valuable in proper aps. Not to mention NF2, i865pe & i875 chipsets are superior to NF3 or KT800. The P4 800 bus chips destroy athlon XP's. So why was there no need to buy one before? A 2.8C is better than an XP3200+ in 9 out of 10 cases, yet cost $35 less. So the XP's are clearly outmatched.

Back to A64. That is $40 one could put into a better video card. A64/FX5900XT or P4 2.8C/ R9800 Pro. Same price, which is the better gaming rig? Not to mention i865pe rock solid proven stability with better mobo choices. I know what i would chose. Anyway, I think A64 has a ton to offer, but why buy one now instead of waiting for better motherboards soon to be released?

Again, IMO XP2500+, Mobile 2500+, P4 2.8C, A64 3000+ are the current best values and which you choose depends on your budget and what you hope to do with it. Yes, 3 out of 4 of my choices are AMD, but ruling out a 2.8C altogether is a mistake. 

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

What a moron that guy is.

Unless he edits video, or there is something wrong with his system, or it is screaming loud and he can't take that anymore, I totally agree with you. I understand wanting to keep messing with new hardware for fun, but that was a poor upgrade right now. Imagine waiting for a Socket 939 NF3 250 A64 3500+. I have high hopes for one of those.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

phial · Mar 15, 2004

My ECS K7S5A never had any chipset problems like you said.. I found the 735 rock solid.. much better than the VIA alternatives that I'd been using before.

SIS735 was a great chipset, fast and stable. drivers were pretty good too.. only problem, like Crash said, is the quality control at ECS. that is not SIS's fault

plus there was a user made custom bios, that allowed WAY more options/overclocking compared to SIS's bios. that was awesome

north bridge and south bridge were on the same die, so there was no bandwidth issies across the nb-sb link like most mobo's, and it reduced latency too.. kinda like it was ahead of its time almost, even tho it was a bargain basement chipset

my mom still uses my old K7S5A, 3 years later, with a crappy 250w generic psu and a 1ghz duron and a Radeon 7200. that system runs faster than most pre-made crap-boxes you get from Futureshop today that cost 1200$

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kinney · Mar 15, 2004

I remember seeing that bios floating around.
735 was one of the socket A greats IMO.. a great filler for those sick of VIA yet couldnt get a Nforce2 yet (it wasnt out IIRC).
plus it uses both SDR and DDR... perfect timing for that feature IMO.. I used SDR when I first got it and when I was nearing Nforce2 times I upgraded to DDR and sold off the SDR with an old VIA board to a friend.

SIS735 is still good if you want the best SDR socket A board. I have a P4 1.4ghz willamette that uses SDR, I was condsidering tossing my old 1700+ and the SDR ram into a box and making a little better use of the memory.
The K7S5A goes for what, less than $50 now? Not a bad deal!
And not slow IMO, but I'm not a complete speed freak..

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kinney · Mar 15, 2004

So is that your way of admitting you were wrong or just claiming that your ignorance supports your opinions? Shame you missed it that one day, as it was a 3 week discussion with over 750 views and 8 pages of replys.

stfu

So why did you feel the need to edumacate me on the XP2500+ ? I have been praising them as much as anyone else.

Then quit saying stupid sh*t.

Its funny that you are "on my side" yet you post the most seemingly argumenative replies that I've seen... for agreeing with you sound awefully opposed to me!

sorry dr. intel.

im glad we're on the same side, you type to much!

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pauldh · Mar 15, 2004

What a fitting way to end a thread. I wish you could admit your mistakes, but I guess not. I guess I shouldn't be surprised since you're the forum warrior. At least when I have made a blunder or been proved wrong I admit it. Yes I type too much. WAY TOO MUCH. But you don't read what I say and can't admit it when you are wrong. OH well, let's both look forward to NF3 250 and A64's. And of course the new video cards too. Can we agree on the last 2 sentences? :lol:

Sorry, had to edit out some venting.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430wattEdited by Pauldh on 03/15/04 06:21 PM.

darko21 · Mar 16, 2004

Re: Oh, No problem i know you weren't suggesting that. And I didn't mean to imply you were. Nor do I have a gripe with you in anyway. If you own an A64, I hope you enjoy it and have no troubles at all. I was just defending what i said and wanted you to know why I said it.

No problem Paul,
Personally I love these forums I do learn lots here once you figure out what to read and what to ignore.

I've noticed you are very sensitive about being labeled an Intel fanboy. I don't blame ya for feeling that way but really you have never said anything to warrant that label. People like kanavit and fugger get those honors.

I personally like your posts (long as they are) I know it was you who introduced me to the mobile xp version option (something i'm considering) You asked if I own an A64 and no I don't I have an over clocked xp2400 I'm not a big fan of unnecessary money dumped into a cpu. I overclock mine to about 2300 MHz and quite happy for a while. I'd imagine I'll upgrade in a year or so maybe it will be amd maybe Intel. But here is the point that is important to me. If it comes down to a coin toss on which setup is better for me (Intel AMD) I'll through my hat at AMD why because AMD has been struggling (this industry needs a non Intel option) so I don't want amd to disappear because then we all loose. AMD needs to gain market share (they are loosing money) Intel is in no financial trouble what so ever. AMD is trying to gain a better share of the market by offering a better product for a better price. While Intel has marketing brute strength.

One thing I'd like you to know though is there are just as many Intel fanboys as AMD fanboys in THGF's. Nothing wrong with individuals preferring one over the other so long as they don't get carried away with their opinion's.

Like I said I value all reasonable input and your input I value. If no one has said it yet welcome to TGHF's

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

pauldh · Mar 16, 2004

hey thanks alot. I fully agree with your logic on the AMD/Intel thing. If AMD and Intel are equal you'd put your money in AMD because they need the money. That is a great attitude. I would also hate to see AMD go away.

Yeah, I don't like outright fanboyism toward any company. Personal preference is ok though. I am asking for trouble a little i guess by leaving P4 in my sig. I was going to remove my system from the sig once I left noob status, but after having someone accuse me of being an Intel fanboy because of it, i decided to keep it for fun. As I use far more AMD's and like them equally well. Anyway there have been many friendly folk, I love these forums too. I truely find it relaxing and it is a place to learn and get the latest hardware news and opinions.

By the way, very nice OC's for an XP2400+. Sheesh, that's great. I have one on a KT333 Soyo Dragon Ultra that was my gaming rig before building the Intel. It never OC'ed well on that board at all for me. But I have almost a 2 year old install of Win 98se on that machine and it is still a very stable gaming rig. Not bad for Win98 and Via. I'll be keeping it for LAN gaming for as long as it lasts.

ABIT IS7, P4 2.6C, 512MB Corsair TwinX PC3200LL, Radeon 9800 Pro, Santa Cruz, TruePower 430watt

darko21 · Mar 16, 2004

Re: VIA breaks laws that we uphold with great esteem here, laws which are part of our culture, laws that make us "american". They steal ALL there new technology (Americans think of themselves as inovators) and use strong arm tactics to block other companies from doing business (WE'VE had anti-trust laws on the books for over 100 years to prevent that). Basically American culture is capitalistic at heart, where restrictions are in place only to keep the market competitave. VIA's anti-competitave practices would be felonious here.

I got to admit crash I don't know the incident or incidents you are referring to about VIA and stealing US or Intel technology.

I was really hoping someone else would ask you. But seeing as no one has I need to know.

I'm going to take a guess here and assume you are referring to the p-4 bus license Intel sued VIA over. If I'm wrong on that then this whole post is out to lunch.

As far as I can tell Intel (sneakily) patented the next logical step in memory bandwidth from ram to CPU. Patents cannot be patented on x86 cpu's but since this is on a motherboard (and thus motherboard tech stuff) Intel got a patent. This meant amd's could not use dual channel ddr as effectively as the p-4 when quad pumped.

So why did Intel patent this (logical next step) don't bother I'll answer it for ya. It was not to protect the great effort intel put into this next logical step in cpu mem bandwidth. It was to prevent amd from using this natural step in computer evolution.

If Intel did not defend their patent the patent can be determined void legally. Intel had to pursue VIA to prevent AMD from being allowed to implement the quad pump design.

From VIA's point of view. Why do we need a license to do what we have always done (does intel own the roads). I mean really does a company that makes tires (only tires) need to have a license for ford gm tires because the 2 companies patented the rim size. get a license or you are out of business. I might be wrong but if this is the ethics thing you are referring to you need to take a second look at the situation.

AMD now has an on die memory controller which bypasses this ridiculous patent. Thank god x86 stuff can't be patented because now intel can use this logical next step with their cpu's.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

kinney · Mar 16, 2004

wow man, i wasnt trying to be that offensive.. i dont think i'm going to paste in your original post... lol.
my intention wasnt to offend, apparantly i must need better people skillz

the "stfu" (meant to really say 'let it go', but wanted it to have more impact), was because i mean geez man, so i missed the thread, you certainly had a much more pro-intel outlook than me and you werent mentioning all the great things (superior imo) about amds offerings.
sorry i missed the thread.. the 'stfu' wasnt meant in a inflammatory way and sorry to disrespect your religon if thats how you see it, im not a christian... i just like jesus alot.

welp, ive gotten a bit off topic so i suppose im done.

toodles!

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eden · Mar 16, 2004

wow man, i wasnt trying to be that offensive.. i dont think i'm going to paste in your original post... lol.
my intention wasnt to offend, apparantly i must need better people skillz

*A big cough was heard in the CPU room*

*COUGH*DAMN RIGHT!!!*COUGH*

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coolsquirtle · Mar 16, 2004

WE LOVE YOU CRASHMAN!!!!!

Via should go kill themselves

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I see absolutely no reason to go Intel now

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