Question i7-12700KF -- Insane Temp Instability ?

[ForHonor13]

Hello Denizens of the OC Deep!
I seek your wisdom of the ages.

Random Context:

• I have been building PCs for about 15~ years now as a side-job; with about 100-200 under my belt (mostly for gaming and lite production work).
• I have limited OC experience, mostly on the much older Ivy CPUs. I apologize if parts of the information below are redundant or not required; I am a bit outside my comfort on this.
• I only intend to use this for 'Intense' gaming and streaming; as well as lite Music Production via FLStudio.

PC Build:

• CPU: i7-12700KF
• Motherboard: MSI Z690A-PRO
• CPU Voltage: 1.29V (CORE)
• CPU Bus Speed/Multiplier: 100*49
• Clock Speed: 4.8ghz (on Boost; without Boost it seems to hover around 3.8-4.2)
• RAM: GSKILL DDR4 3600 16-19-19-39
• Cooling: Watercooling Loop (MSI MAG P240)
• GPU: XFX 6800XT
• OS: Windows 10 PRO 64 Bit

Whats Happening:
- Prior to BIOS UPDATE, the system would immediately throw CPU OVERHEATING error when booting into BIOS. After updating to most recent BIOS and enabling XMP (without MemoryTryIt override) it seems to be 'useable' in the sense I was able to install windows and drivers and some test applications. However, when doing PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING (loading a YT video, launching a game, downloading updates/steam items, etc) it will surge to 90C+ and start 'toggling' the Throttle as it will slingshot from 85>100+>90>100* etc; in XTU my graph almost looks like a heart-rythm... which is appropriate as I am 1 step short of a heart-attack if this thing cooks itself.

What I've Tried:

• After watching a few YT videos on the 12700K (or anything 12th Gen+) it seems Intel threw TDP out the window? Many people seem to be experiencing power/voltage overdraw on these and advise Undervolting.
• After attempting to Undervolt a bit, I set to 1.29V with Adptive+Offset (Offset of -.12) via XTU; this helped a bit; dropped 5~C ; but I still get insane spiking as mentioned above that often throws it into throttle; and I cannot launch ANY game without it sitting at 95-105 consitently.
  • Its important to note; the CASE is not the BEST; and I recognize that as an airflow problem, which Ive purchased 4 Noctua NF-A12x25 to update the default water-loop fans and the case fans; but for the purposes of my testing above; and for moving forward to get this stable; I've removed the glass side of the case to open and allow airflow. (this did not resolve the issue and barely moved the avg 1-2*C; which makes leads me to believe this issue leans more on voltages ) - I also intent to re-paste the CPU+Pump Interface with some Noctua NT-H1; instead of the default paste the AIO came with (but was all I had at the time).

What I've Noticed:

• The CPU/GPU are not taxed AT ALL on any of these application launches; even when I launched some test games, my CPU Utilization is only around 5-20% and my GPU is under 40-50% (on desired settings).
• AIO FAN + PUMP SPEEDS are all pretty good. PUMPs at 4k+ and fans are around 1500-2000 RPM on the Radiator; and the case-fans (although case is wide open) are hanging around 900-1200 RPM.

My Questions:

1. Should I be adjusting the MIN/MAX WATTS allowed for the Boosts? in XTU I see : "Turbo Boost Short Power Max (P2) & Turbo Boost Power Max (P1)" which are both set to 241W (which is seemingly insanely high compared to the TDP I thought I was getting into; 125W~ )
2. Should I be lowing any of the Clock Ratios? I see a few people with x48; whereas mine is x49 (I am unsure how much this actually impacts).
   • I saw a YT video where someone had some success dropping the ratios for the IF USING X AMOUNT OF CORES logic.
3. Should I continue to underclock/undervolt? Based on HARDWARE MONITOR, this thing isnt pulling more than 1.26V; but that is not counting runs on Cinebench 23R and XTU STRESS (which I prefer to not run; compared to IBT; but perhaps thats outdated thinking on my part?)
4. Is there anything else I should be looking at in BIOS or Intel XTU? Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. I would love to get this rig up and operational fully before the Holiday.

Here is a picture of the most recent temp-run; only having CHROME + STEAM DOWNLOADS running. (1 Hour Lookback)

 

[Phaaze88]

Cooling: MSI MAG P240

Get rid of that thing and get something else, for starters. MAG and MPG lines are hot trash. Liquid flow gets strained by early organic build up. Even the Version 2s aren't a fix.
MEG doesn't suffer this issue, but is pricey compared to the other 2.

 

[Aeacus]

I think that your issue lies with this:

Cooling: Watercooling Loop (MSI MAG P240)

Since while you do have an AIO with 240mm rad, it is unique design, where the pump itself sits in the middle of the rad, rather than on the CPU.
Specs: https://www.msi.com/Liquid-Cooling/MAG-CORELIQUID-P240

There is a reason why most AIOs have the pump on the CPU, rather than attached to the rad, or worse yet, inside the rad.

TH did a review of i7-12700K by using Corsair 280mm rad H115i AIO,
review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-12700k-review/2

With proper AIO, TH was able to get easy OC on CPU. This indicates issue with your AIO, and a severe one at that, since you get thermal throttle even on idle.

 

[ForHonor13]

@Phaaze88 -- Thanks! I did feel it was odd they had the pump on the rad when installing. Suppose I shouldve put more research into the AIO.

I think that your issue lies with this:


Since while you do have an AIO with 240mm rad, it is unique design, where the pump itself sits in the middle of the rad, rather than on the CPU.
Specs: https://www.msi.com/Liquid-Cooling/MAG-CORELIQUID-P240

There is a reason why most AIOs have the pump on the CPU, rather than attached to the rad, or worse yet, inside the rad.

TH did a review of i7-12700K by using Corsair 280mm rad H115i AIO,
review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-12700k-review/2

With proper AIO, TH was able to get easy OC on CPU. This indicates issue with your AIO, and a severe one at that, since you get thermal throttle even on idle.

So, if I understand correctly; we are saying..

1. definitely migrate away from the MSI AIO
2. This Corsair H115i AIO looks great; but I dont believe I can fit a 280 in my case - do you have a 240 option you'd recommend? Similar space/formfactor as the P240 MAG?

Outside of the AIO Issue; is there anything else I should consider?
Or does this need to be addressed first before additional testing.

 

[Phaaze88]

@Phaaze88 -- Thanks! I did feel it was odd they had the pump on the rad when installing. Suppose I shouldve put more research into the AIO.

It's just one of the ways manufacturers are trying to get around Asetek's patent crap. Look at be quiet's Pure Loop(2) which has an inline pump. There's other pump in block units with tweaks here and there so as not to be a direct copy of Asetek's pumps.
The pump-in-rad type works well if the rad is installed vertically, the problem is that all the PIR types made so far were by one company, which has dirty/contaminated coolant on their track record; they're giving PIR a bad look.
Msi MEG is fine, since it's another Asetek unit. The catch is the pricing.

What is the case, so we know what fits?

 

[Aeacus]

Or does this need to be addressed first before additional testing.

Let's first get proper cooling to your CPU and after that is sorted, we can go on from there. Though, i think that with proper cooler in place, you don't need our help on CPU OC, since thermals would be far better.

do you have a 240 option you'd recommend? Similar space/formfactor as the P240 MAG?

Like Phaaze88 said, we'd like to know your PC case, to know what could fit in there.

 

[ForHonor13]

@Aeacus @Phaaze88 -
Thank you both for your time and help.

The case I am using is the NZXT H510 - CA-H510B-B1
I quite like the 'All Black/Blackout' and No RGB look; the build (asthetically) has been great for that; but I realize this case is erring on the smaller side.. has a glass panel.. and isnt a mesh front; and only a 120x1 for the top.

Im not above Case-Modding; as Ive done it before and have the skill/tools.. but ideally I find something that fits in this as-is and keeps it stable enough. (once again, not trying to hit a 5.5 on All-Core lol; just a decent boost for gaming and production work).

Let me know if a picture of the case and its current setup/internals would be helpful.

 

[Phaaze88]

The case I am using is the NZXT H510 - CA-H510B-B1

Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120
Noctua NH-D15S
Scythe FUMA 2 Rev. B

I wouldn't bother with a 240/280 AIO/CLC in this case, as the front panel with narrow side intake kills what advantage they would've had over one of those air coolers.




EDIT: I should add, that IF you 'meshify' the front panel, then sure, put an AIO in there.

 

[Zerk2012]

@Aeacus @Phaaze88 -
Thank you both for your time and help.

The case I am using is the NZXT H510 - CA-H510B-B1
I quite like the 'All Black/Blackout' and No RGB look; the build (asthetically) has been great for that; but I realize this case is erring on the smaller side.. has a glass panel.. and isnt a mesh front; and only a 120x1 for the top.

Im not above Case-Modding; as Ive done it before and have the skill/tools.. but ideally I find something that fits in this as-is and keeps it stable enough. (once again, not trying to hit a 5.5 on All-Core lol; just a decent boost for gaming and production work).

Let me know if a picture of the case and its current setup/internals would be helpful.

Overclocking is pretty much a thing of the past, it's not like the old 2500K days where you could clock it to 5.0 / 5.2 and be good to go.

The way the new processors are set up it's already about maxed out, you might get a extra 0.2 or so out of it, if you can even keep it cool at stock settings. EDIT the XX600K chips still have some overclocking room.

Your case is closed off in the front so poor air flow coming through the 240mm rad, MSI AIO coolers should be avoided at all cost just garbage and a bad design.

 

[ForHonor13]

Overclocking is pretty much a thing of the past, it's not like the old 2500K days where you could clock it to 5.0 / 5.2 and be good to go.

The way the new processors are set up it's already about maxed out, you might get a extra 0.2 or so out of it, if you can even keep it cool at stock settings. EDIT the XX600K chips still have some overclocking room.

Your case is closed off in the front so poor air flow coming through the 240mm rad, MSI AIO coolers should be avoided at all cost just garbage and a bad design.

Thanks for the reply @Zerk2012
@Phaaze88 @Aeacus

Yes, it is becoming apparent now that the CASE + AIO are the weakest link. I will be returning the AIO and going with one of the following..

• be quiet! PURE LOOP 240mm
• iCUE H100i

or, non AIO

• Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120
• Scythe Fuma 2 Rev. B CPU Air Cooler,
• Noctua NH-D15S chromax.Black (Im leaning towards this. unless you recommend not as the Sythe isnt available for quite some time)

I think I am currently trying to understand..
If I go with one of the above Tower Coolers as Phaaze88 mentions, would I still be OK in my current case with updated fan configuration?
Or; if I stick with the AIO (regardless of who it is); will I just outright need a new case or case-mod the current to meshify it.

 

[Zerk2012]

Thanks for the reply @Zerk2012
@Phaaze88 @Aeacus

Yes, it is becoming apparent now that the CASE + AIO are the weakest link. I will be returning the AIO and going with one of the following..

• be quiet! PURE LOOP 240mm
• iCUE H100i

or, non AIO

• Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120
• Scythe Fuma 2 Rev. B CPU Air Cooler,
• Noctua NH-D15S chromax.Black (Im leaning towards this. unless you recommend not as the Sythe isnt available for quite some time)

I think I am currently trying to understand..
If I go with one of the above Tower Coolers as Phaaze88 mentions, would I still be OK in my current case with updated fan configuration?
Or; if I stick with the AIO (regardless of who it is); will I just outright need a new case or case-mod the current to meshify it.

Depends on you I would go with a D15 not the single fan S (280mm/360mm AIO) if you have the memory clearance and a new case. I don't think you can replace your current case front panel.

 

[Zerk2012]

However, after upgrading the CPU to an i7-11700, none of the video output ports are working anymore - there is no signal from the IGD on either HDMI or DisplayPort. Otherwise, the CPU works as expected and the display adapter is detected by the OS.

Turbo Boost Short Power Max (P2) & Turbo Boost Power Max (P1)" which are both set to 241W (which is seemingly insanely high compared to the TDP I thought I was getting into; 125W~ )

This is the way Intel has always worked even the older ones advertised watts is for regular speed not turbo speed.. You can go into the settings and limit these to like 200 watts and would help but probably gimp the performance just a bit.

 

[Phaaze88]

The advantages AIO/CLCs have over air are:
1)All core workloads. There are levels of power use that air just can't cope with.
At the same time, these coolers are still air coolers; the fluid loop alone can't accomplish anything. Efficiency is at its best when they are installed against a mesh panel.
If you go and choke them, then this advantage over an air cooler is gone. Can't choke an air cooler in the same manner, since they usually sit towards the center of a case.

2)Small form factor cases and motherboards which some of the good air coolers can't fit.

3)Cases that come with no fans or just 1-2. 240mm and larger give you extra case fans.
Does not apply to 120mm units.

 

[ForHonor13]

Thanks @Phaaze88 and @Zerk2012

I will move forward with purchasing either the.. Noctua NH-D15S chromax.Black or the iCUE H100i if I get an updated case.
Cinebench score was 2900~ .... something is definitely wrong; and I am hoping its limited to heat throttle.. and not a bad die. P5 core is very jumpy.
Will re-paste and reseat the CPU as well once I get the cooler and updated case fans.

I appreciate everyones input thus-far.

If there is any case recommendations, please feel free to send them my way. I will be trying to budget this out.

 

[Aeacus]

Noctua NH-D15S chromax.Black

With H510 case, i'd go with this cooler myself. And if you'd need better static pressure with the tower cooler, you can always install more fans to it.

If there is any case recommendations, please feel free to send them my way. I will be trying to budget this out.

Since choosing a PC case is personal choice, pick the one you like the most. But you can start your new PC case research from here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL5uttjPWZE


Just keep in mind that NH-D15S is 160mm tall, and make sure your new PC case has at least that much CPU cooler clearance as well (H510 has 165mm clearance).

 

[SyCoREAPER]

Everyone is so quick to comment with replace this, replace that etc, etc...

Back to basics

I actually have an MSI board and had immediate heat issues like you. MSI's default fan curve for the AIO/CPU fan header is atrocious.

Also most stock AIO fans are junk so so this is my "replace comment". Replace the fans with either Noctua A12x25 PWM or PF12 Redux 1700 PWM.

If you are getting a new cooler, you should get new fans regardless for it.

 

[Aeacus]

If you are getting a new cooler, you should get new fans regardless for it.

Not all CPU coolers need new/better fans. Many CPU coolers already come with fans that are fine-tuned to operate with the specific cooler. Namely Noctua and Arctic Cooling coolers.

Like, why would you spend money on inferior fans, to replace those good fans that come on Noctua CPU coolers?

 

[ForHonor13]

@sycoreaper
Thanks for the reply!
Monday, 12/12, I have 4x Noctua NF-A12x25 PWNs coming. I will attempt to replace the Rad fans + Case fans (Which Ive turned for intake; since Rad is on front for Exaust).
My intention was to try that first, as you mentioned, before installing the ordered NH-D15 to replace the AIO.

Do you have any advice for the MSI Fancurve?

With H510 case, i'd go with this cooler myself. And if you'd need better static pressure with the tower cooler, you can always install more fans to it.



Since choosing a PC case is personal choice, pick the one you like the most. But you can start your new PC case research from here:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL5uttjPWZE


Just keep in mind that NH-D15S is 160mm tall, and make sure your new PC case has at least that much CPU cooler clearance as well (H510 has 165mm clearance).

Thanks @Aeacus - Just to clarify, since Ive been starring at HW Monitor and XTU for like 12+ hours and going insane..

You are saying you LIKE the choice for the build, correct? The NH-D15? Because that is what I've ordered based on the above conversation, I didnt get the "S" because I saw people had some success fitting them into the H510s but obviously tight and some had to remove the extra fan depedending on RAM clearance or I/O shielding

 

[Phaaze88]

@sycoreaper , Msi's MAG and MPG Coreliquids suffer from contaminated coolant.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/m...40r-360r-aio-coolers-due-to-sediment-build-up

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7uBkjehgQk

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_A2sKleRmw


Msi's trying to downplay it, but the entire MAG and MPG lines are affected, including their Version 2s, which were supposed to be a fix. Apaltek is the company that assembled these.
MEG Coreliquid is fine, because it's the same ol' Asetek stuff.

 

[Aeacus]

Thanks @Aeacus - Just to clarify, since Ive been starring at HW Monitor and XTU for like 12+ hours and going insane..

HWinfo64 has Logging (record) feature that you can use, so that you don't have to stare it at all times.

You are saying you LIKE the choice for the build, correct? The NH-D15?

Yes. NH-D15 is king of air coolers and solid choice.

I didnt get the "S" because I saw people had some success fitting them into the H510s but obviously tight and some had to remove the extra fan depedending on RAM clearance or I/O shielding

Noctua has a neat compatibility checker on their site, that you could've used prior purchase, to make sure if cooler fits.
E.g NH-D15S chromax.black does fit into H510 and it's variants,
link: https://ncc.noctua.at/coolers/NH-D15S-chromax.black-67/cases/NZXT?q=h510

Btw, NH-D15S chromax.black only has one, middle fan. So, how could that interfere with RAM clearance?

Specs: https://noctua.at/en/nh-d15s-chromax-black

It's the regular NH-D15 (non-S) that comes with two fans, where the front fan can have RAM clearance issues. But you can install the fan at the rear of the cooler.

And Noctua even explains the differences between NH-D15 and NH-D15S,
link: https://noctua.at/en/whats-the-difference-between-nh-d15-and-nh-d15s

 

[SyCoREAPER]

@sycoreaper , Msi's MAG and MPG Coreliquids suffer from contaminated coolant.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/m...40r-360r-aio-coolers-due-to-sediment-build-up

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7uBkjehgQk

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_A2sKleRmw


Msi's trying to downplay it, but the entire MAG and MPG lines are affected, including their Version 2s, which were supposed to be a fix. Apaltek is the company that assembled these.
MEG Coreliquid is fine, because it's the same ol' Asetek stuff.

Yes, the old v1s did have issues. There are no reports of V2s with issues and that's been out for over a year. Not apologizing for MSI, I have my own qualms with them but every company has had a dud line of some sort and since these and many other AIOs are outsourced as mentioned, it isn't MSI that you should explicitly avoid, it's their partner/manufacturer.

@sycoreaper
Thanks for the reply!
Monday, 12/12, I have 4x Noctua NF-A12x25 PWNs coming. I will attempt to replace the Rad fans + Case fans (Which Ive turned for intake; since Rad is on front for Exaust).
My intention was to try that first, as you mentioned, before installing the ordered NH-D15 to replace the AIO.

Do you have any advice for the MSI Fancurve?
Thanks

Yeah but mine may or may not be good enough for a 2 fan but it's better than stock. Then again I am running Raptor Lake so that should offset the smaller rad. I'll post them shortly when I get home.

 

[Phaaze88]

It's the regular NH-D15 (non-S) that comes with two fans, where the front fan can have RAM clearance issues. But you can install the fan at the rear of the cooler.

@ForHonor13

This is why I didn't suggest the original D, but the S model.
We don't live in a perfect world, so if there's the smallest manufacturing defect between the 165mm clearance H510 and 165mm NH-D15, you might not be able to close your case's side panel. I like to err 1mm shorter on the case clearance to be on the safe side.
Noctua also didn't design the NF-A14/A15 fans to be used as pull fans; there's some air turbulence, and they make a buzzing sound when used that way.
That's why I was like, get the D15S, and if you have a spare 120mm fan, install that at the front - the packaging comes with a second set of fan clips.

 

[SyCoREAPER]

@ForHonor13

Leave the pump "dots" alone. The only thing for pump, make sure it's set to PWM and Smat Fan Mode is checked above the dots.

For the Fans (I have all three going into a splitter so you may need to do it for each fan if they are plugged in separately). Fans 'Auto' does NOT work, you MUST to set it to PWM.

Fan % is on the left, Temps on the bottom

1. First point I have is 46% @ 89F/32C
2. Secomd point is 62% @ 149F/65C
3. Third point (is wrong, won't hurt anything but will be louder) 100% @ 186F/86C
4. Last point 100% @ 212F/100C

 

[Karadjgne]

I prefer liquid, anyone who knows me knows I'm a staunch supporter of its use. However, there are times and occasions when aircooling has a huge advantage that's impossible to ignore and the NZXT H510 series is no exception there.

For the best overall temps, use just 2 fans, rear exhaust and top exhaust, that's it, no intake fans whatsoever. Also pop the pci slots under the gpu. This gives a totally negative system and allows the gpu to pull air from the rear much more affectively than front intakes can supply. And a good aircooler is important. Liquid cooling is simply bad in the H510 line, although the meshify is slightly better.

And the Apaltek pump in rad designs are the worst there is. That's been a solid issue ever since the NZXT M-22 aio, so have no clue why MSI chose that route.

The NH-D15 and NH-D15S are actually 2 different coolers, not just a single or dual fan difference. The 'S' has a double offset, it's physically offset towards the rear slightly, giving better clearance for ram as it sits behind instead of over the 2nd ram slot, and it also has an offset towards the top of the case, away from gpus that use a heavy backplate/stand off backplate design. That was often a bone of contention with the D15 as it is wide enough to touch some gpus.

And the A12x25, A14 and A15 fans work just fine in pull btw, the only fan that really suffered large differences was the NF-F12 as that's a force directed design with a 90° flow cone exhaust, not the standard broad area cast cone like most fans. This gave the F12 a huge advantage on rads in push as all the air hit the fins straight instead of angled, creating far less turbulence and backpressure, which enhances performance. It's relatively mediocre static pressure and cfm meant it was mediocre at pull, but excellent in push.

 

[Phaaze88]

And the A12x25, A14 and A15 fans work just fine in pull btw...

Can't vouch for the A12, since I never tried them on the D15S heatsink, but the other 2 do buzz when used as pull fans on the heatsink. Starts doing it around 1000rpm.
If spacers, or something to act as one, are used in between, the sound can be reduced.
Didn't hear that sound at all on the Celsius+ S28.