Intelligent Design

[johnsonma]

Why all these assumptions?
I fully dont understand your POV, as God has given us the very freedom to not believe in Him, why then wouldnt He also give us the rights and desires to fulfill such learning?

Yes, I know of parallel thinking, it too is a possibility.
God has said, who knows the workings of His thoughts?
So, that alone leaves room for anything, and what God wants is for us to believe in Hm, and love Him, as any father would.
Its others misconceptions, others beliefs as well, that hold them back from God and knowledge and wisdom as well.
Believers can find fault with science, and non believers do, but using failings to describe something isnt logic, and where the doctor failed here.
To me, God is our father, he wants us to learn and grow, but mostly, he wants us to know Him, love Him, and how this becomes a tangled mess of beliefs vs non beliefs, using such failings of growth of spirit and faith to prove things is beyond me.
The doctor failed to mention this, as I said earlier, he is ignorant in this matter, and shouldnt be considered as any kind of respectable commentator on such matters, and thus disqualifies him.
I still like him, love what he brings, but he should stick to those things he truly knows about

What assumptions? What about your entire paragraph of assumptions about God?

 

[dogman_1234]

I cant agree with that. The transmission went both ways. This was a point in Islamic and arabic countries that were developing the sciences while medieval Europe was um... busy with other things.... There's nothing wrong with a non-christian country adding to scientific understanding.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science#Byzantine_and_Islamic_science

Logical truth.

During the dark ages, it is assumed that the sociopolitical atmosphere was somewhat unstable. These were barbaric nations who have just begun to start nations...later the European integration.

There are theories as to what the dark ages were. What it a result of religion controlling the knowledge? Was there a fire that destroyed records? Where there any records at all?

It was also a time when a defined human science was beginning to emerge. Many arts and information had been processed. Science and religion ruled co-axially. Middle Eastern nations began advancing Greek mathematics. Then, the enlightenment... If i am correct.

You don't have to be Christian to be a scientist. Having faith is not bad. Many well known and unknown minds of greatness were from a faith-based background. It was their brethren who despised their God-given gifts of bending the universe to better understand what really is the awesome place we live in called space time...or reality. What did these fellow followers do? Do what every twisted person would do...end the life of a soul.

I love my God. I try not to be too pushy on my beliefs. I love science. I believe it is something God has put in me to help me better understand this universe we live in.

Concerning science. I try not to jump on the science bandwagon. Let me explain:

Ever heard of the research concerning vaccination and autism. It was published and recognized by many. However, there were flaws. The researcher who performed these tests altered evidence and results in favour of notoriety. Many other scientist, like climatologists, have altered data in favour of notoriety ( please don't argue this case. I am aware not ALL data has been altered.)

Just because a human says something, doesn't mean it is true. Don't follow a crowd blindly. Look for yourselves. Read, search, and question. Knowledge and wisdom can let you go to far away places no one has ever dreamed of.

 

[johnsonma]

Do you believe in evolution? What about the human body being designed so poorly in some aspects, how do you feel about that?

 

[johnsonma]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/20/11306372-catholic-nuns-group-stunned-by-vatican-scolding-for-radical-feminist-ideas?lite/

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

You believe that god created the universe, if its true then we no longer need to look at it and our view of the universe becomes a point of ignorance.

This assumption, which the rest of my entire followup addressed, and explained the very thing the good doctor missed.......

 

[dogman_1234]

I believe that God has allowed the universe to change. If there were no sort of evolutionary or adaptive changes, there would possibly be no motion in life. I don't believe we came from a randomized explosion with picomatter constructing all of life. I do not believe we came from chimps. I do not believe we go through billion year cycles. Here is my take: WYSIWYG.

Define being poorly designed. The question seems to vague.

Thank You.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

As to what you refer to as my assumptions on God, again, its as I said, this is inarguable.
Its what I believe
You also believe things, are these too assumptions?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I believe that God has allowed the universe to change. If there were no sort of evolutionary or adaptive changes, there would possibly be no motion in life. I don't believe we came from a randomized explosion with picomatter constructing all of life. I do not believe we came from chimps. I do not believe we go through billion year cycles. Here is my take: WYSIWYG.

Define being poorly designed. The question seems to vague.

Thank You.

I also agree with this, as I also agree that once the serpent had legs to walk more upright, and they no longer do

 

[dogman_1234]

Guys, please respond to each others posts. This is too confusing to follow!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I had been responding to John, then I quoted you dog
why the confuzzion?

 

[dogman_1234]

I cantz undrstanz too manie poztz

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Go find a busy chat area, and make sense of that, then come back, youll find this easy

 

[wanamingo]

bah humbug we didnt evolve from chimps we ARE chimps.... Big hairless monkeys with large brains. We share a common ancestor with our ape brethren.

Life can originate from inorganic matter, I look back to the long enough timeline argument. Its possible just so improbable it almost never happens.

I think john was referencing the complexity argument most IDer's use. Like the human eye, the fact that you have an organ that can receive visual input is remarkable. But not impossible or perfect.

Poor vision
Old age
disease
Physical and mental handicaps
Cancer
Pain

If god created people why no alleviate their suffering? Or design them to be more hardy?

Life without God is not impossible just so improbable it might as well be impossible. You might think that is an argument for the case of intelligent design, but look at it this way if the conditions weren't perfect and your ancestors (Im even talking your single celled ancestors) weren't lucky then you wouldn't be here to experience it. Thats what makes life so precious you are the culmination of billions of years of all the right events happening to spawn life on earth. Its rare, really really rare. So make the most out of it, not every gets to be conscious and able to question its reality.

 

[wanamingo]

PS happy holidays!!

Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed which is upon the face of all the earth.…To you it will be for meat." … And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

 

[dogman_1234]

When God said it was good...He meant it.

I don't think He wants us to suffer. He wants us to turn to Him and ask for relief in any way. He wants' to have a relationship with people...not turn them into immortal super beings who will never die. I don't understand what and why He does things, but there is where to scientist in me asks: 'Why?'

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

God is a jealous God
I hate quoting scripture really, in these terms, under these circumstances, I truly do.
It is for edification, not set to prove, but to share.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

1. How did the universe begin?
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html
Heres one of my favorites

 

[johnsonma]

I believe that God has allowed the universe to change. If there were no sort of evolutionary or adaptive changes, there would possibly be no motion in life. I don't believe we came from a randomized explosion with picomatter constructing all of life. I do not believe we came from chimps. I do not believe we go through billion year cycles. Here is my take: WYSIWYG.

Define being poorly designed. The question seems to vague.

Thank You.

We are poorly designed mammals. To use a few examples from Tyson, our breathing and feeding holes are the same holes so we end up choking. Our backbone is completely screwy and could be designed better by a 6th grader. What about fingernails and our pinkie toes, what the hell are those for? We did come from chimps, the evidence is in the dna of every human. When matter can come together to create fusion on its own, I think it can come together to create single celled life and go from there.

 

[johnsonma]

God is a jealous God
I hate quoting scripture really, in these terms, under these circumstances, I truly do.
It is for edification, not set to prove, but to share.

How you can tell me that my statements are assumptions and then quote scripture as fact when it was written by man.

As far as my assumptions go you know I am right. Mankind's curiosity is really the driving factor in our desire to create and understand, take that out of the equation and we will no longer pursue true knowledge.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

So, knowing God exists doesnt create curiosity?
Again, assumptions and totally missing the boat.

OK, I will quote again:
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul's message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.



So, in essence, the praise given these people was due for seeking the truth.
The yearning, the steadfastness etc.
No other group in the bible were given this praise, and has been an example to me and oythers.
So, before we get on the good enough syndrome, which is belittling and highly assumptious, actually get to know one before fitting them in a box

 

[johnsonma]

How can you seek the truth in scriptures when you do not know it yourself? Its not knowing that God exists that hampers curiosity, it's the fact that whenever someone is baffled by something they can end up rationalizing it by saying that its magic, or the hand of god. I think you missed the entire point of the conversation JDJ, you have discredited the logic behind the reasoning by labeling it assumptions. Throughout history religion has always stunted the growth of knowledge and understanding of the world around us. I will admit that maybe it was the leaders of religion that were responsible for this, that religion in and of itself is not entirely responsible, but the church influences people to think a certain way regardless.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

No, youre missing the point, as these scientists seek knowledge, not for recognition, as thats unGodly, but for pure knowledge.
Now, we can grasp tons of lies from those whove sought greatness in their respective fields, as their motives are corrupt.
So, on the flip side, having no such qualms, no such desires, the very truth should be what prevails, and this then is discredited by someone who who is driven by that very same thing.
To me, thats missing it, when youre that close, but cant recognize it, and then also, only points to possible motives for such thoughts.
Ask yourself, if you are seeking the truth, whether it be God or science, or youre happy with the truth garnered through scripture, but also want to seek the truth in science, whats the difference?
Wheres this fallback you speak of?
I see more detrimental aspects of recognition and money leading away from the truth than people just seeking the truth, and their steadfastness in doing so.
If they arent more alike than not, other than this fall back to God theory, which is easily explained as people eventually lose their edge, or someone comes along and builds upon the foundation someone before them has already done.
In other words, saying religion has harmed science and discovery in todays world, where the pope doesnt have edict, is pure lunacy, and being as close to such things as the doctor is, leads only to motives

 

[johnsonma]

Ungodly? Corrupt? Do you not see how your view is already distorted? These are assumptions.

What truth can be garnered through scripture JDJ?

The fall back to the God theory can be explained by people losing their edge? REALLY??!?!?!?!?

What about the teaching of creationism instead of evolution in schools?

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

If you hold yourself to certain ideals, and those ideals as being a child of God, going against that is unGodly.
Seeking truth in your life is as important as finding such things in God, so they are the same.
Saying it cant be even, or doesnt exist whatever, its still a belief, and held at that level, the same as any good scientist would, with less corruption, as recognition and money shouldnt be the driving force, but has been in many cases.
So, I will kindly agree to disagree here, as it shows my freedom, where many of the motives for this whole discussion lie.
I believe its this very thing thats misunderstood, and the motives herein on the other side mount

 

[dogman_1234]

I can see where this thread is heading.

Rey, seriously consider impending some posts if it gets out of hand.

***

I can see john has a very passionate curiosity to why people believe in a God. This, in my opinion only, has to do whit the fact that we process information differently.

In response to john: If we are designed poorly, shouldn't evolution have taken care of that millions of years ago? Assuming that God was not good at designing and engineering the body, does not mean we are flawed physically. There are reasons we are the way we are! The only flaw I can see is the fact we hurt each other...because we are animals only for ourselves.

"Tell me why are we...so blind to see...that the ones we hurt...are you and me!"