Just Buy It: Why Nvidia RTX GPUs Are Worth the Money

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Yeah ... that was Wusy who had the oilfilled PC ... it was in his fishtank ... Kiwi guy ... very funny.

I think he was one of crashman and Wingy's mates.

He left the little fan on the chiset 440BX ... it used to spin really slowly ... LOL.

Sadly we lost those threads after the great purge in 2007 ... which was a good thing because I was a troll before that and Jimmy I used to drive you, turpit, Yommomafore1 and TC nuts with my old account!!

:)
 


And... as long as you have an EiC that is willing to attack, insult, belittle other contributors/staff/writers as one of their arguments... you will have a problem with other vlogs, blogs, and other tech sites taking note, especially in combination with self-contradictory statements and arguments... THIS will discourage any new talent that may be needed at a later date (if not now). THIS will and has damaged the reputation of the site as a whole. (Don't believe me? Google it and see how much this article has made TH a laughingstock.) The quality of this article would have it rejected by any debate leadership in a high school. THAT is what we have the biggest problem with... and it ties in with a professional position that should have have the experience and perception to have realized this even before it was published. The article fails Journalism 101. It reflects badly on the author, AND it reflects badly on this site.

Don't get me wrong, ad hominem attacks are not good form. Name calling isn't good form, period. Both are usually acts of desperation: acts of a lack of a solid argument. If we, the visitors to this site were to call staff members/writers, and I quote, "price-panicked pundits," you would rightly get on our case about it. I'm not sorry we hold TH up to higher standards than most other sites. Unfortunately this seems to be changing, and people are leaving.
 


It was sarcasm (should have emoted that I suppose), they moved on to the GT6000's, 6600 was the sweets spot. The FX was a disaster.
 
Ad hominem attacks and accusations of shilling will be removed and disciplinary action will be taken. If you have points to make, make them in civil context and assert the proof of your argument. Civility is compulsory in Tom's Communities. While most logical fallacies are acceptable in the scope of debate here, personal attacks run directly against our guidelines. Please do keep on topic, and restrict references to the subject matter of the op-ed article itself or it's counterpoint op-ed.

Thanks!

-JP
 


There is a certain bit of irony in this statement given that this Op-Ed is not based on any factual basis such as independent benchmarks but instead relies heavily (and perhaps solely) on data supplied... by the manufacturer. As for my proof to back that assertion, one need not look any further than the article itself. It could have been made much more clear that this is an opinion piece and not what appears to be a steadfast recommendation by Tom's Hardware on the whole. I'd be inclined to believe things wouldn't be as hostile or addled as they are had that been done.

I get what you're trying to do here, JP. I do; to that, you also have to understand that we, the readers, prefer our material to be backed on independently verified facts and absent of conjecture or assumptions. Keep it straight, focused, and to the point. That's all we ask. Best wishes as always... and good luck. I look forward to your ACTUAL results once the hardware is available to be run through the battery of tests all the GPUs are forced to endure.


 
You also have to understand that we, the readers, prefer our material to be backed on independently verified facts and absent of conjecture or assumptions. Keep it straight, focused, and to the point. That's all we ask. Best wishes as always... and good luck. I look forward to your ACTUAL results once the hardware is available to be run through the battery of tests all the GPUs are forced to endure.
Click to expand...

The item was labeled very evidently as an opinion piece - in counter to another that asserted the opposing (seemingly consensus) viewpoint held by a great number of gamers (myself included), but there are significant benefits to other applications for the tech. I would fully expect that we'll be seeing a considerable number of tests, benchmarks, and deep dives into these cards vs. others here. This is great for discussion, and I'm seeing threads pop up here already with battle lines being drawn on the issue. There's strong, passionate sentiment here, and over at PCMR.

As a side note, please be aware that posts from former staff discussing legally sensitive matters or engaging in personal attacks against current staff have been removed. Discussion in the Tom's Community requires adherence to our guidelines, and ad hominem / personal attacks are not welcome here by any members, a standard that all members, from newest user to moderator to staff both former and current are held to. We welcome and even celebrate dissenting opinion always, but will never serve as a platform for direct personal attacks against former colleagues or other forum users.

-JP
 


Where, specifically, was it labeled as an opinion piece? Why was that not decreed from the very start as part of the topic sentence rather than having to decipher that through context? Can you not see how it is lacks clarity as it could have had from the very start? Is it too much to ask to have [Op-Ed] or the similar added to the topic or some declaration made within the body's opening paragraph? I would think not, but I don't know what the criteria for pieces are at TH.

As a parting observation, the company line regarding policy against disparaging remarks and the like doesn't seem to be very evenly applied or with any measure of regularity, especially seeing the EiC applied a thinly veiled slight towards employees/writers/etc of TH. That's a bit hypocritical in my opinion, but I'm just a peon and have no favored standing. It also seems to go on elsewhere and relatively unchecked. As a suggestion, you may want to look into that.

Thanks again for your efforts. Not trying to be purposely combative here but instead to point out things that could be addressed going forward to prevent things like this from occurring again.
 
Where, specifically, was it labeled as an opinion piece?
Click to expand...
At the top of the piece. Though, will pass along the recommendation for the prefix. Could be useful, as we've done that in the past. It's possible that the reason that stopped is because the interwebs aren't keen on brackets in titles.

As a parting observation, the company line regarding policy against disparaging remarks and the like doesn't seem to be very evenly applied or with any measure of regularity, especially seeing the EiC applied a thinly veiled slight towards employees/writers/etc of TH. That's a bit hypocritical in my opinion, but I'm just a peon and have no favored standing. It also seems to go on elsewhere and relatively unchecked. As a suggestion, you may want to look into that.
Click to expand...

The proscription against personal attacks / ad hominem is universally applied. I would fully expect one of my own comments to be deleted by an Assistant CM if it contained a personal insult against another member. The usefulness of having a standard to hold everyone's conduct to is that you just have the one. Otherwise, rest assured, this place would fall to pieces.

Thanks again for your efforts. Not trying to be purposely combative here but instead to point out things that could be addressed going forward to prevent things like this from occurring again.
Click to expand...

Certainly! Just trying to keep the discourse civil and on-topic. :) I'm sure the Editorial folks are taking everyone's feedback into consideration for future pieces. And perhaps may more visibly identify op-ed pieces with a graphic or some such. Or, let someone who isn't the EiC take the contrarian position. 😉

(Tangential note, at one point in time, Avram baited me into writing a big honkin' response piece to an article on ad-blocking. By taking the popularly contrarian position, he managed to solicit my authoring a response to it as a reaction, totally unbidden. This is to say that consensus can be a powerful force, but so too can contrarian assertions in prompting discourse. Objectively, though it may not be something a majority, even a supermajority agree with, taking the devil's advocate position intentionally can really help to surface items that aren't being considered. The audience may not respond positively, but is ultimately served by the presence of dissent.)

-JP
 


Perhaps it was and I skimmed past it which would be my bad; however, I don't recall that having been there from the beginning. No need to be rudely condescending about it, mate. 😉



I can certainly understand the desire and need to keep things civil and on point. Far too often do they stray away from that expectation though, admittedly, sometimes the blurring of the specific line adds more to the discussion at hand than detract from it. We've all taken that tasty bait at one point or another and you identifying a situation where Avram "got you" is just another notch to your belt.

Thanks again.
 
I can't believe what I'm reading. First, as a moderator/overlord of the forum,
you have the ability to do pretty much anything you wish. As with most things,
"violations" are in the eye of the beholder. First, you state it was clearly labeled as
opinion. I don't remember seeing it on the FIRST draft. Keep in mind, the page was
edited shortly after the controversy started, so many people may not have caught
this. A further indication that this was changed comes from you're own topic headings.
The one on this reads RTX>opinion, while the proceeding article (which has been pointed
out several times as the published counter to this) reads RTX>news. Either their both
opinion or both news, make up you're mind.

Next, do your terms cover satire as a transgression? Just about every RTX on/off spoof
photo was deleted as well. One I thought was particularly good was rtx off with a wallet
full of money, the rtx on showed an empty wallet. Not only was this hilarious, it was somewhat
to the point considering the exorbitant price increase. What rule did that break? Pictures?

Last, I saw that ALMOST all of the references to the Gamers Nexus video analyzing this
article/opinion piece. (you missed one early on, and I'm not referring to the recent reposts
of the link). While harsh and not very flattering, it was indeed just a deconstruction of the
article pointing out the inherent contradictions and logical fallacies of the author.

While yes, you have the right to print ANY article/opinion you see fit, as with mot things,
this doesn't follow that you should. If you wanted to print a counterpoint, using SOME data
other than nvidia's marketing material would have been nice. How about their past record
of GPU scaling? The small but measurable gains from 14 to 12nm? Their deep pockets to allow
them to seed the ray tracing faster than normal take up? There MIGHT be some others, but it
beats reposting Nvida''s launch day propaganda.

And for the love of Mike, "save money by paying top dollar now"? Really? Unless this turns out
to be the single biggest advancement in GPU performance, or you can make boat loads of money
using them for business, this is just mind boggling.

Perhaps you'd have been better off labeling it RTX>humor
 


I and others have deleted a lot of the comments in here despite our personal feelings for or against the article, and I don't know what you think you were seeing but thats not what was deleted. This forum prides itself on being a cut above the rest. you go to a lot of other sites and you will set 10 page long flame wars, sarcastic trashing, etc. We don't have that here because I and others on the moderation team pride ourselves in keeping the conversation going in the right direction and keeping the forum family friendly, coherent, and useful to the greater good. As has been mentioned, personal attacks, ad homenim, profanity, etc will not be tolerated, and thats what we deleted.

Tell me what does "waaah you are paid off by Nvidia" with nothing else in the post do for the conversation? Or how about "Avram you should be fired and go jump off a bridge". Sorry that doesn't fly here. Or maybe we need the same gamernexus video posted an 18th time. If you do not agree with that I don't know what to tell you but this site will not be used to abuse or personally attack people, and we will not be wasting space and thought on posts that do nothing for the conversation here. If you like that kind of trash there are plenty of other places to find it on the internet.

Otherwise, be respectful, truthful, and factual, or your posts will be deleted.
 


As for your last paragraph, while you have a point to a certain extent about multiple postings stating the same thing gets dull, I doubt you go to such lengths to scour all of your forums for DIFFERENT posters agreeing or repeating a point of view. Many times, people chime in to emphasize their agreement with a particular point made, a link or statement that expresses their point of view better, etc. An article with 20 comments of "that's great," or "that sucks," conveys that 20 people took the time to let you know how they feel. Posting it once and deleting the rest may be concise, but it fails to convey the LEVEL or depth of peoples feelings about it. While when you get 500+ comments it might not be necessary to make the point with 600+....... But then again, with this kind of enthusiasm, I'd probably be rethinking the article or strategy rather that continuing to tell everyone to go pound sand, it was a great idea.

While no one wants personal attacks to take place, and should be limited, I might add that some commentary can be just as much to the point and valid as it can be insulting. Take, for example, "price-panicked pundits." This is used to make a point while not being terribly flattering to people who are against his position.
 

Rogue Leader,
I understand that you're just doing your job, and I'm sure it was someone else that took it upon themselves to "cleanse" this board's comments. I guess my point is just that I don't really blame people for reacting to this article the way that they did. Everything about it was handled poorly, and people are indignant, insulted, and irate.

I can't speak to the posts you are mentioning, but there are quite a few comments missing that definitely do not rise to the level you describe. I don't doubt that the posts you mentioned did in fact exist, (this is the internet, after all) but I do think that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

In any case, Avram brought all this on himself. He started with the ad hominem attacks by labeling people that don't share his beliefs as "price-panicked pundits" that "don't understand" and by generally insulting our intelligence as readers in the first place. Then, instead of an apology he doubles down on that tactic and we get this:
So, good news. My article on Why @nvidia #RTX cards are worth it has generated a lot of buzz. Bad news: a lot of people misunderstanding the purpose of the piece.
Click to expand...
Sounds to me like he's saying it's the reader's fault here. Personally, I think he would have much been better off if he just accepted responsibility.



 
I get what you're saying about being an early adopter means you get to experience things and watch them grow, which is actually a really cool experience. The problem is, being an early adopter is generally reserved for those that have more disposable income.

I literally just bought my 1080ti on August 10th and could return it and upgrade to the 2080 for a few hundred more, But there isn't just the added few hundred of the upgraded card, now I have to drop a few hundred more on some games that support ray tracing to feel like it was even worth the upgrade.

After all that upgrading and game purchasing, I'd be pissed off that there wasn't a tangible difference in performance on 99% of the other games I play since my 1080ti already runs them on max settings.
 
The inevitable implication is that this was not a counter opinion to the earlier logical piece but a response pressurised into existence. We can very easily draw our own conclusions with that. Clearly the writer knew what the immediate response would be, considering the reader base: universal condemnation. Now, having altered - and significantly - the entire tone of the original article (which can be easily confirmed in the widely linked Youtube critique), and using the very justified deletion of personal attacks to the author to delete much, much more, we're left with a rather pathetic shadow of the entire picture for any new reader.

Unfortunately for Tom's, this irreparable damage is done. What level of trust should we place on any article now generated?
 
Riiiight..., I'm going to buy a card that very few games can currently use and hope the Tech works and gets adopted by other games. Of course, by that time the card won't have the power to play the new games and I'll need to buy a new card and put this one beside the other things people tried that with, like the Beta max , physix card, the Pentium P5, the TiVo and the Deloreon to name a few.
Seriously tho, one of the reasons I've always trusted tom's Hardware was because, at the end of the day, hype didn't matter. It was the tech (and how well it did or didn't work) that mattered. This article has shown that those days are over. You may have added an edit claiming that this is an opinion piece but, as the Editor in Chief, your opinion is what shapes the direction and future of Tom's Hardware. And you have shown that, in your opinion, Hype trumps substance. I guess I'll be looking somewhere where substance still matters when I need a proper unbiased review.
 
Advising to buy things if you can afford it based on some philosophy or marketing material, no matter how convincing, is not what I expect from editor in chief of TomsHardware. I am here to see unbiased tests and benchmarks, that I can’t carry out myself. This reads like insubstantial hype article which doesn’t belong on an enthusiast website. I thought professionals value data more than anything else, perhaps not.
 


Correct we do not scour the forums for every single mindless comment. We are volunteers and there are only so many of us. So if there is a review of a keyboard with 20 comments all variations of "thats great" or "this review sucks" you are correct we probably won't even get to them. However this article is one where there is a heated discussion so of course it will be policed more closely. As you saw there was a lot of hate speech and other things like that in here, and plus as I said, short mindless angry comments like that do nothing to further the discussion.

And without commenting for or against the article, I would never delete "Price-panicked pundits" as a comment. The types of insults we delete are like "you're a moron" "you need mental help". There were a TON of posts like that, even some well written ones. But if you are going to put commentary like that in a post, expect it to be deleted. We don't get paid enough to sit there for 10 minutes and excise personal insults from a post and leave it still coherent.



The "cleansing" has been a group effort. Again I won't comment on the article itself for or against because what it says is not my responsibility, the forum posts are. As mentioned earlier by our Director of Community there were some additional comments that have been removed as well that entailed private company information. That is all I can or will say on the matter. Also as I mentioned above there were some decent posts peppered with hateful and hurtful comments that also were deleted. I'm a volunteer moderator not the commentariat's personal editor, so I'm not going to sit here and retcon peoples posts who can't make a coherent point without resorting to "you're a moron".
 
I read this article and I processed it, in the same way, as statements made by a 4-year old explaining why he/she should have the toy that just appeared on TV.
The statements will have no basis, is entertaining and it will be full of contractions. I wouldn't get mad, since I am aware and understand the level and lack of knowledge. In case of temper tantrum, I offer a spoonful of home made strawberry ice cream. All is well and forgotten, like it never happened. 😉

Just because I get a couple rotten eggs from a 12 egg carton, it does not justify the conclusion that they all decomposing, putrid and putrescent.
I check, and test the rest before arriving to the conclusion that they are bad or spoiled.

 
You are basically telling people that if they don't buy this GPU, which by the way hasn't been tested in labs yet in controlled conditions, through your title. Also, you don't have the data to even back up you "Buy this item" approach to your article. Now, let's talk about the technology that is in the item also that is not even supported by some of the most popular games on Steam. No, I'm not talking about PUBG or Fortnite as those are more mainstream, I am talking about games like DIvinity: Original Sin 2, Arma 3, XCOM 2, etc.. Also, so what's with not having full data to recommend to YOUR readers that they should buy something. Isn't that what your whole community looks to you for? Data, metrics, and comparisons to make an informed decision? You don't even have all the information to to even INFORM your readers. You have sunken to new lows with "click bait" titles and it's gross and irresponsible. Please do yourself a favor and reevaluate your titles for articles and get back to a more informative format.
 
I'm actually ok with that. Ray Tracing isn't a selling point, and games work fine on my 4K monitor.
 
I think that people should just listen to avram piltch. Just because it's the right thing to do it will make you cool and smarter.
(I could be a writer Tom's Hardware if I keep up these really good opinion pieces I might even be able to make editor :))
 
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