OP: Why Microsoft is Innocent with IE8

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Does Apple bundle a browser with it's operating system? I don't think so.

It may include Safari and or IE with it's computer, but a prebuilt computer logically includes an internet browser -- that's the entire idea of being prebuilt.

And operating system doesn't.

However, Apple doesn't just s
 
[citation][nom]Robodog[/nom]Guys you do understand that the decision to remove IE 8 was Microsoft's own remedy right? It was not ordered by the EC. Offering competing browsers is not suicide at all, unless you believe Internet explorer is completely useless. Actually, offering competing browsers at first boot could be a good remedy for undoing the damage the illegal tying of IE had all these years.[/citation]


Thats like saying people who make anti virus are illegaly bundling anti fhishing and firewalls.. what about the companys that only make those two things? thats a lame argument. its thier software they made it there is no way in hell its illegal. If its ilegal in the EU then they got some pretty stupid laws.

Hellw e better stop bundling games with video cards and sound cards. people might think they are the only games out there.

Why doesnt my quicktime show me firefox instead of just safari? or perhaps IE? i really hate quicktime but its damn annoying. anytime there is a update it asks if i want to install a bunch of garbage from apple. Seriously when i install windows i dont want to be asked if i want to use every garbage media player and browser under the sun just goto the damn desktop and let me click the e.
 
@ Tuan[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]What's with the MDF comment? Just because I write something supporting one company means I get paid? That is such an old attack at the media. Please, get a new one.You clearly have no history in following this long standing, multi-year case with Microsoft and the EU in regards to the browser space. The EU has changed its stance several times. First they wanted Microsoft to remove the browser completely. Then they wanted Windows to have the setup option for a browser. Then now they're examining having a choice of browsers. Why do you think they got to this point today? Because people complained about not having the ability to browse. The EU has tweaked its stance on several occasions.Let's say this ends up in a choice of browsers at startup. What do you think will happen?The majority of people don't even know about other browsers. The Joe-Average. Like one commenter pointed out, many don't even know about Firefox, Chrome, Opera. The people who will pick another browser other than IE are the ones like you and others here. The ones that KNOW. And the ones that KNOW already use something else!So what market share will this fix, fix? It will fix NOTHING, because IE will still be highlighted as the default browser in the list. And since Joe-Average-I-Use-My-PC-for-Email-and-Chat won't know any difference, what do you think he'll pick?This EU browser nonsense, will fix absolutely nothing.Great that you pointed out that you think I get paid by Microsoft. Especially when most of what I've only written here from time to time are Mac news.Get a clue. Don't come across all hostile and expect me not to refute you.[/citation]

These arent attacks , these are the consequences of giving your "Opinions" .

Passive media (only information) + active reader (judgement)= democratically good.

Active media(judgements) + passive reader = the media is suggesting things . dont treat your audience as children , just report vanilla facts .the same facts could be presented in a neutral way .
 
"Flavors of Linux, Mac OS X, etc., all ship with browsers already packaged. And why does the EU think people lack choice if Microsoft includes IE?"
Because windows isn't free, where as the rest are. 😛
 
If i would make an OS i would put what i whant inside, i should not be obliged to something i don't whant to...

Apple puts Safari in Mac OS
Ubuntu puts firefox in Linux
The same for all major linux distributions...
Nintendo puts Opera Brownser on WiiOs

Why Microsoft can't do the same?
 
The EU is another example of COMMUNISM in action. Love or hate MS but understand that the EU sued them and fined them substantially. If MS wants to do business in the EU than they will have to comply with the Communist rule that controls the EU. The USA is also moving rapidly into Communism and so MS is losing ground on all fronts. If not for Bill Gates and MS we could not even do this today. Remember when Bill Gates saved MAC? Governments around the world are doing everything they can to gain control of free enterprise and individual rights.
 
Robodog. The EU gave a judgement that MS bundling their browser with their OS was anti-competitive. I think its clear to just about anyone (except for you) that the simplest solution is to not bundle their browser with their OS.

Other approaches such as bundling other manufacturer's software would cause endless delays - if you did decide to bundle all the competition with your OS, which one's would you pick? Opera and Firefox? Then Google could sue MS over not including Chrome. Or do you ask the EU to give you a list of acceptable browsers? and what? delay your product by a year every time you are ready to ship?

-> Waiting for a government committee to hand you a list of browsers everytime you want to ship a product is business suicide.

-> Realizing that the OEM will add extra software such as browsers is far simpler and doesn't make you wait for an external committee.
 
[citation][nom]newideasconsult[/nom]Here we go again, great to see so many people basing their comments on someone else's opinion, and not on the facts. Please read the EU's actual case against Microsoft before posting the usual anti EU drivel! Or if you are to lazy to read the history of the case covering Microsoft's abuse of its position since 1996, just read the current response from the EU commission on Microsoft's Windows 7 threat: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleas [...] anguage=en[/citation]
I did read it and I still believe that the EU has gone too far in their demand, it is now anti-competitive towards MS, I don't them pressing Apple. Slamming MS for preventing OEMs from loading alternate browsers is reasonable, forcing them to include other browsers is moronic and feeble minded at best, vindictive in reasoning, and anti-competitive in application. I think the EU is drunk from fine money and in this time of financial foolishness they need money but are unable to raise taxes because Europe is overly burdened by taxes, fine MS for some more easy cash.
 
[citation][nom]knutjb[/nom]I did read it and I still believe that the EU has gone too far in their demand, it is now anti-competitive towards MS, I don't them pressing Apple. Slamming MS for preventing OEMs from loading alternate browsers is reasonable, forcing them to include other browsers is moronic and feeble minded at best, vindictive in reasoning, and anti-competitive in application. I think the EU is drunk from fine money and in this time of financial foolishness they need money but are unable to raise taxes because Europe is overly burdened by taxes, fine MS for some more easy cash.[/citation]
You really need to read up on competition law.

There’s a perfectly good reason as to why the EU haven’t contacted Apple, Apple is not dominating the relevant market. MS is bundling IE with Windows and MS have a monopoly on the OS market. Apple’s OS X is in the same market as Windows XP and Vista, and the market share is insignificant. Thus the EU can’t and shouldn’t sanction them for anti competitive behavior when they bundle OS X with Safari (as I presume they do, I’ve never bought a retail copy of OS X).
I suppose one can view the EU’s sanctions as anti-competitive, but that’s very much in line with the intention of the system. The purpose of competition law is not to stabilize the situation and prevent MS from growing even larger; its purpose is to give the competitors a chance to gain market share and have MS shrink. Should MS all of a sudden lose the battle against Linux and OS X (highly unlikely) and no longer be dominant the sanctions would no longer apply. Should OS X ever become dominant and replace windows the law would once more kick in and their bundling methods would be investigated.
 
[citation][nom]phim[/nom]Um, is the article author completely bonkers?It was MICROSOFT who decided to remove IE. The EU did NOT ask Microsoft to do it. As a matter of fact, the EU wanted several browsers to be bundled with Windows.So once again, the staunch Microsoft-zealots have failed to even understand what's going on.Amazing![/citation]

1. What would happen if somehow the bundled xyz browser didn't work on Johny-Six-Pack's computer had problems? Whom would he complain first? Microsoft or the author of xyz?
2. If these people will call Microsoft, who'll pay for the increased aftersales support? xyz company or we, MS customers?
3. What if some service packs invalidate one of these third party browsers? Whom to blame?

So, considering these, I guess, MS has done the right thing: Not to carry the burden of supporting other browsers, ripped off its own. That's the most logical way to get out of this dilemma.
 
[citation][nom]iversen[/nom]You really need to read up on competition law.There’s a perfectly good reason as to why the EU haven’t contacted Apple, Apple is not dominating the relevant market. MS is bundling IE with Windows and MS have a monopoly on the OS market. Apple’s OS X is in the same market as Windows XP and Vista, and the market share is insignificant. Thus the EU can’t and shouldn’t sanction them for anti competitive behavior when they bundle OS X with Safari (as I presume they do, I’ve never bought a retail copy of OS X).I suppose one can view the EU’s sanctions as anti-competitive, but that’s very much in line with the intention of the system. The purpose of competition law is not to stabilize the situation and prevent MS from growing even larger; its purpose is to give the competitors a chance to gain market share and have MS shrink. Should MS all of a sudden lose the battle against Linux and OS X (highly unlikely) and no longer be dominant the sanctions would no longer apply. Should OS X ever become dominant and replace windows the law would once more kick in and their bundling methods would be investigated.[/citation]
I think you missed the point, MS has done some anti-competitive things, the EU is just over compensating. It doesn't matter if MS is the biggest or not, it's if they are all playing under the same rules. You espouse that it's the job of government to pick winners by only applying the rules on the biggest company while allowing smaller ones to opperate anti-competitvely. That practice in and of itself is ANTI-COMPETITIVE. There is choice in the market. To force the general public who aren't into the technical side to have to learn it is foolish. Most just want to put the disk in and hit play, that's it. MS gives them this with minimal fuss. Those who want to play with linux more power to you. Those who want to spend a lot for an Apple, it's your money. I don't want a government telling a company they have to operate differently than other companies solely because they are bigger. They should play under the same rules regardless of market share.
 
Actually, IE has been a terrible browser up till version 6, which came way looong after Netscape had been "beaten up".
Back then it was US suing the hell out of MS because of selling Windows with IE already there.
I am not at all in favour of the EU here but they have a point.
Here on Tom's we know what a browser is and that there are other choices apart from IE, but the average person don't.
You know, most people call IE "The Internet". If you are troubleshooting something and ask an average user to connect to the Internet he/she will open IE and say: "I did".
Another example: if you remove the homepage from IE most people will simply think that their Internet it's not working. Happens to me all the time at my workplace (I live in the EU, by the way).
Maybe we are just behind the US, but I see the point of not giving a chance to other browser if you have IE already there.
Still, I think that the box asking you to select which browser to use is the best solution but of course MS did not like it.
Oh, and I must add: IE is NEVER removed from the operating system. The web browser component is a critical part of Windows since Win98 and CANNOT be removed.
What is not there is the frame around it that we call IE.
Anyway, even if it is removed I think you will have the option to install it later from Windows Update.
 
1. If done right just about every upset consumer would complain to XYZ.
When connecting to the internet for the first time a window could pop-up with a selection of browsers to choose from. Just like when the user runs IE8 for the first time, and gets to choose what search engine to use.
IE could be on top of the list and right below the logo it would say something like: Developed and supported by Microsoft (likewise it would say Apple under Safari etc).
IE could even be the default selection and have some flashy “recommended” badge.

If MS wanted to cover all bases they could ship with a handicapped version of IE that would display a webpage with direct download links to the top 4-5 browsers. The files would be hosted by the devs/publishers, and they'd be responsible for keeping the files up to date. MS would only have to edit the website when/if some new browser captures a significant market share or an old one dies.

2. MS would pay, but if done right the strain would be minimal. Most windows installations are OEM versions and AFAIK MS do not support them. When dealing with OEM versions you have to solve the issue yourself or contact the company that sold you the copy/computer.

3. How would windows shipping with more than one browser change the current situation?
 
in my opinion this is just a way of EU try to get extra cash from microsoft for the EU community. I'm from portugal and i found this myself ridiculous.

microsoft should respond by making available some browsers for install, but should be installed as default IE8.0 in order to kick ass :)
 
My last post was in responce to Duzcizgi

[citation][nom]knutjb[/nom]I think you missed the point, MS has done some anti-competitive things, the EU is just over compensating. It doesn't matter if MS is the biggest or not, it's if they are all playing under the same rules. You espouse that it's the job of government to pick winners by only applying the rules on the biggest company while allowing smaller ones to opperate anti-competitvely. That practice in and of itself is ANTI-COMPETITIVE. There is choice in the market. To force the general public who aren't into the technical side to have to learn it is foolish. Most just want to put the disk in and hit play, that's it. MS gives them this with minimal fuss. Those who want to play with linux more power to you. Those who want to spend a lot for an Apple, it's your money. I don't want a government telling a company they have to operate differently than other companies solely because they are bigger. They should play under the same rules regardless of market share.[/citation]
That’s where you’re wrong, and why I suggested you read up upon competition law.

While it’s true the western system is based on free competition, then we have to put some rules in place for when one company grows too big and crushes all its competitors – regardless of quality. Just like Toyota wouldn’t be allowed to buy GM, as the outcome would be far too dominant a force.
Apple and MS could play buy the same rules if MS had a market share of let’s say 45%. But that’s not the case, MS and windows have a monopoly on the OS market and that’s why we have to be extra careful when MS starts bundling products with its OS. If MS bundled an anti-virus system with Windows of the same quality of Norton and Macafee, chances are that MS would have secured a 80% share of the anti-virus market in a matter of years.

Now if would prove that the market for OS X or iMacs was vastly different from the market windows is present on, chances are Apple would have a dominant role on that market. Apple could then be sued/investigated and forced to stop bundling safari with OS X.
 
1. If done right just about every upset consumer would complain to XYZ.When connecting to the internet for the first time a window could pop-up with a selection of browsers to choose from. Just like when the user runs IE8 for the first time, and gets to choose what search engine to use.IE could be on top of the list and right below the logo it would say something like: Developed and supported by Microsoft (likewise it would say Apple under Safari etc).IE could even be the default selection and have some flashy “recommended” badge.If MS wanted to cover all bases they could ship with a handicapped version of IE that would display a webpage with direct download links to the top 4-5 browsers. The files would be hosted by the devs/publishers, and they'd be responsible for keeping the files up to date. MS would only have to edit the website when/if some new browser captures a significant market share or an old one dies.
Providing a handicapped version of IE requires full product cycle, increasing cost. Of course, if MS will incur this cost, it will pass it on to customers, OEM and retail alike. So that option is expensive.

[citation]2. MS would pay, but if done right the strain would be minimal. Most windows installations are OEM versions and AFAIK MS do not support them. When dealing with OEM versions you have to solve the issue yourself or contact the company that sold you the copy/computer.[/citation]

If MS distributes the competing browsers in the disc, MS should provide the support point, as the distributor of the product is responsible to collect complaints and relay the problems to producer or solve them on their own. MS doesn't give support to OEM versions is wrong. Just OEM who sold the product collects the problems and relays to MS. MS doesn't deal with OEM end users directly, but deals with OEM and retail problems equally. So, this introduces costs, which will be relayed to end user.

[citation]3. How would windows shipping with more than one browser change the current situation?[/citation]

Increase the price tag of Windows. Nothing more. - You'll pay money for the "free browser"s.
 
To answer the question, how do you obtain firefox without IE pre-installed, the answer is simple. From a cmd window, type

ftp ftp.mozilla.org

The internet existed long before browsers.

The real question is how does windows update work without IE?
 
[citation][nom]duzcizgi[/nom]Providing a handicapped version of IE requires full product cycle, increasing cost. Of course, if MS will incur this cost, it will pass it on to customers, OEM and retail alike. So that option is expensive. [citation]2. MS would pay, but if done right the strain would be minimal. Most windows installations are OEM versions and AFAIK MS do not support them. When dealing with OEM versions you have to solve the issue yourself or contact the company that sold you the copy/computer.[/citation]If MS distributes the competing browsers in the disc, MS should provide the support point, as the distributor of the product is responsible to collect complaints and relay the problems to producer or solve them on their own. MS doesn't give support to OEM versions is wrong. Just OEM who sold the product collects the problems and relays to MS. MS doesn't deal with OEM end users directly, but deals with OEM and retail problems equally. So, this introduces costs, which will be relayed to end user.[citation]3. How would windows shipping with more than one browser change the current situation?[/citation]Increase the price tag of Windows. Nothing more. - You'll pay money for the "free browser"s.[/citation]
Ok maybe you’re right about the handicapped IE thing, but I figure MS already have a similar product handy. Windows Update can’t depend on IE in Win7, I’m not sure if it does so in Vista -but I don’t think so. Whatever that tool is based on could easily pull data from a website and offer direct download links.

I realize that the retailers have the option to call up MS, but what I meant was that the consumer isn’t entitled to any direct contact with MS.
When you contact Dell’s support department, they do no usually relay your OS issues back to MS. If the problem is something they can’t handle, they usually just ask you to do a clean install. And if windows were to ship with Opera and it was bugged, Dell’s support would either ask you to install another browser or contact Opera. It’s highly unlikely that a retailer would relay a third-party browser issue to MS.

I fail to see how windows shipping with third-party browsers would increase the price. Also the comment you’re quoting was in response to your question number 3, which had nothing to do with price tags.
 
[citation][nom]iversen[/nom]My last post was in responce to Duzcizgi
That’s where you’re wrong, and why I suggested you read up upon competition law.While it’s true the western system is based on free competition, then we have to put some rules in place for when one company grows too big and crushes all its competitors – regardless of quality. Just like Toyota wouldn’t be allowed to buy GM, as the outcome would be far too dominant a force.Apple and MS could play buy the same rules if MS had a market share of let’s say 45%. But that’s not the case, MS and windows have a monopoly on the OS market and that’s why we have to be extra careful when MS starts bundling products with its OS. If MS bundled an anti-virus system with Windows of the same quality of Norton and Macafee, chances are that MS would have secured a 80% share of the anti-virus market in a matter of years.Now if would prove that the market for OS X or iMacs was vastly different from the market windows is present on, chances are Apple would have a dominant role on that market. Apple could then be sued/investigated and forced to stop bundling safari with OS X.[/citation]
As we have seen GM got too big and colapsed in on itself and Toyota has had to borrow large quantities of cash from the Japanese government to prevent collapse, bad analogy of apples and oranges. Just because government writes a law to make some more equal than others or chooses to unequally apply a law to "balance the playing field" doesn't mean one can automatically call it a great law, or great implementation of said law. There are plenty of poorly written laws on the books. When the government runs amok and creates laws that stifle any market the consumers are the end loser. Yes slam MS for what they DID, they are now doing what the EU have asked but the EU once given an inch demands a foot. When other companies consider expanding into other world markets they will look at the EU's handling of MS and ask themselves do they want the same kind of treatment. They might consider other markets less encumbered by government over regulation, or increase the end price to the consumer to cover future legal expenses, all of which negatively impact the consumer. Just look at the US, the more this current government picks winners and losers the longer the economy will stagnate. Same goes for the EU. Show me, if you can, ANY business that government runs more effectively than the private sector. Government needs to step back and watch the game, applying the rules equally to all players, regardless of size and not pick winners or losers, that's the markets job. MS was once a tiny speck on IBM's radar.
 
[citation][nom]afrobacon[/nom]Why not just do something simple like including the top 3 browsers at the time of the OS's launch? Giving people not only a browser, but an up front selection.Would be nice skipping over the M$ exploder altogether; but at the price of not having access to something better isn't worth it.[/citation]

Then the 4th browser company would sue... The only other way to appease the EU would be to include all browsers that want to be included. There would be enormous engineering costs to certify the browsers included, and even then it would be impossible to police the inclusion of crapware and other security and stability issues. Not to mention people's complaint of bloat.

If you think that people's perception of Windows stability and security (partly due to third party drivers and software, and the complicated architecture required to support them) is bad now, wait till every yahoo (think FSM's argument of including the alternatives) writes their skin on the IE engine, adds their payloads, and requests theirs to be pre-loaded with Windows...
 
[citation][nom]knutjb[/nom]As we have seen GM got too big and colapsed in on itself and Toyota has had to borrow large quantities of cash from the Japanese government to prevent collapse, bad analogy of apples and oranges. Just because government writes a law to make some more equal than others or chooses to unequally apply a law to "balance the playing field" doesn't mean one can automatically call it a great law, or great implementation of said law. There are plenty of poorly written laws on the books. When the government runs amok and creates laws that stifle any market the consumers are the end loser. Yes slam MS for what they DID, they are now doing what the EU have asked but the EU once given an inch demands a foot. When other companies consider expanding into other world markets they will look at the EU's handling of MS and ask themselves do they want the same kind of treatment. They might consider other markets less encumbered by government over regulation, or increase the end price to the consumer to cover future legal expenses, all of which negatively impact the consumer. Just look at the US, the more this current government picks winners and losers the longer the economy will stagnate. Same goes for the EU. Show me, if you can, ANY business that government runs more effectively than the private sector. Government needs to step back and watch the game, applying the rules equally to all players, regardless of size and not pick winners or losers, that's the markets job. MS was once a tiny speck on IBM's radar.[/citation]
The law is the law, and in the EU it hasn’t changed for quite a while. Most if not all EU countries had the same or similar rules in place before the union. The USA’s antitrust rules are not a whole lot different, and chances are MS would have been split into two companies by now if Bush’s administration hadn’t interfered. The EU is not trying to take over MS or even split it up, they are merely trying to make them follow the current legislation.

It’s becoming clear that you simply do not share my political views, or those the western economy was built on. I don’t want to turn this into a sociologic, economic discussion, but before we agree to disagree allow me to make an example:

Let’s say we have a market for sinks and one for toilets.
The sink market consists of 3 companies:
A: has a market share of 90%
B: has a market share of 5%
C: has a market share of 5%.

The market is unhealthy. A spends large amounts of money on advertising securing its share. A can pretty much set the price as it see fit, with B and C locked down with a small but dedicated customer base. B and C have every reason to invest in innovation, but have too small a cash flow to take a risk large enough to really any impact on the market.

While the state isn’t going to seize control of A, it’s keeping a watchful eye on its methods. Preventing A from dumping prices and securing retailers in an effort to drive B and C out of the market or keep newcomers away. Lower prices are good for consumers in the short run, but in the long run healthy competition will pay off.
The state doesn’t care how B and C spend their money, due to A’s monopoly they are simply unable to do anything that can qualify as anti-competitive.

The toilet market consists of 5 companies:
A: has a market share of 15% (same A as above)
B: has a market share of: 20% (same B as above)
D: has a market share of 30%
F: has a market share of: 15%
G: has a market share of: 20%

This is a healthy market, there are no secret cartels and all companies spend a fair share of their income on research and innovation.
A however wishes to get hold of a larger market share. The toilet market isn’t very profitable but it’s a great way to get your name out there. Knowing that plumbers all around the world have to buy their sinks A start bundling their toilets with the sinks. Plumbers can buy toilets from A separately but if they buy a sink from A they automatically get a toilet as well. Not surprisingly the plumbers’ interest in toilets from B, D, E and F is decreasing at a very rapid rate. Soon thereafter F pulls out of the market and A now have a share of 55%.
The state steps in and forces A to offer their sinks without the toilet “attached” in an effort to bring back competition to the market.
B decides to focus on delivering a complete bathroom solution and bundles its products, B now have a market share of 15% on the toilet market, and 4 % on the sink market.
The state doesn’t care what B does for now, as their business model is currently of no threat to the market(s).
If B on the other hand was to focus on delivering high-end toilets and sinks only - and that market could be considered separate from the market A, D and F is present on, leaving only G, it’s quite possible B would be dominant on this new market. The state would then step in and force B to sell its products separately, allowing B’s sinks to be matched with G’s toilets.

This is how the current system works and why it’s in place.

MS might have had a better product than Netscape when it gained its monopoly but due to the bundling policy MS share grew at a very rapid rate. When new competition arrived (products that at times have been significantly better then the IE alternative) and one would think the market share would even out it didn’t. This was archived thanks to IE being tied to windows. This is why the EU stepped in.
 
Simple solution that Microsoft is too dumb to provide. Make IE uninstallable.

Or do the splash screen thing EU was recommending.

Unfortunately Microsoft's higher-ups are like 12yo spoiled brats and refused to do something that is smarter and can potentially have no downfall. Their are a number of open source browsers they could include as options. They could include firefox and opera as options, then just use whatever the equivilent is of wget in windows to get the latest stable build then run the executable.

I'm a developer, which makes my eyes see much easier how retarded Microsoft is. Either the higher ups are retarded with their decisions or their developers don't care at all about the products they are making or what i think is the least likely scenario, the developers are just really bad at programming.
 
Honestly I expected higher quality/more technical opinion columns from Tom's...

Microsoft would face big fines if it decided to bundle IE with Windows 7

Imagine installing Windows only to find out you can't even get online to grab a 3rd party browser.

I am not sure the exact wording of EU's ruling is or if quote above means MS is completely bar from even allowing user a (perhaps non-default) option of installing IE during the installation process. Even if MS is bar from allowing users to choose to install IE, there is still ftp or lynx (yes, text based http), definitely not as easy as opening up IE and searching for alternative browser/browser of choice. I doubt there is many people that would choose to use only text base browser and not install a graphic browser on a GUI desktop.

I am glad IE would no longer be integrated into the OS for security reasons and I think MS is just playing hardball and screwing the average user over, regardless of the exact wording of EU's ruling. MS has options to make it easier for the average user but it decided not to and while it is their right to do so, I disapprove of how they are handling this like a child.

Depending on the exact wording, I may frown upon the EU's ruling (i.e. if MS is bar from even allow users to choose to install IE).

A friend mentioned that retailers (pre-built systems in general) may/can step up ot the plate and pre-install browsers for you... like the rest of the crap they pre-load except this time it would be actually useful! :)

So the only plain would be white box builders like myself but then I am savvy enough to get by (plus I got many PCs worst come worst, i.e. if there is no ftp or lynx command, I still can grab browser installer on linux box, place installer on samba mount, and install on Windows).
 
Sorry for double posting but can't find edit button anywhere... I forgot about people upgrading... which is still not that bad... just remember to slap on a installer for your browser on a usb drive or something...
 
[citation][nom]iversen[/nom]The law is the law, and in the EU it hasn’t changed for quite a while. Most if not all EU countries had the same or similar rules in place before the union. The USA’s antitrust rules are not a whole lot different, and chances are MS would have been split into two companies by now if Bush’s administration hadn’t interfered. The EU is not trying to take over MS or even split it up, they are merely trying to make them follow the current legislation.It’s becoming clear that you simply do not share my political views, or those the western economy was built on. I don’t want to turn this into a sociologic, economic discussion, [/citation]
Your belief is that government must jump in and "correct" a company so everyone can sell roughly an equal amount of product has a negative effect on the economy. Just because MS is 90% they must be reigned in even when they are following the law is anti competitive. Try reading Adam Smith. The more government attempts to control any market the more they screw it up. When the market self corrects it does so faster and more efficiently than government. This government meddling will keep the economy stifled, look at what Jimmy Carter did in the US in the late 70s, we in the US are going through something similar but with far greater meddling in the economy that will make this recession a long, painful one.

At the end of the 60s IBM was seen as the "monopoly" in both hardware and software and because of governments overbearing application of law to “level” the playing field IBM is now an also ran. The problem with governments argument to level the playing field, is that the field is already level. Government should really be focused on the same rules for all players and equally applying said rules, then the better company will succeed.
 
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