G

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Hi All,

It's far too easy to be wise after the event.

So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

Regards,
John Ward
 
G

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Maybe time for Bush to finally sign the Kyoyo Treaty and reduce emissions
leading to global warming!! The hurricans etc are getting worse by the month
around the Gulf of Mexico. Its a pity we haven't invented a giant
'waterpistol' or 'squirtgun' aircraft that can jettison the rising tides
into outerspace or is that being too sci-fi orientated.

Ibby

"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> Regards,
> John Ward
>
 
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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
<johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
>Regards,
>John Ward

I'll let others address the "emergency" need (S&R, taking care of
people who've been displaced, etc.)

The first thing that needs to be done is to fix the levees to
control the inflow of water into New Orleans. I understand that
they've got one breach almost sealed.

Once that happens, they can start pumping water.

The next thing is infrastructure--roads, rail, water/sewer, and
electricity. The transportation links in and throughout the area need
to be a priority, because without them, it's very difficult to get all
the people and "stuff" you need in to do what needs to be done. It
appears that MSY can handle flights (not passenger flights, but relief
flights), and that there wasn't a lot of damage at the airport.
However, you can't fly in enough stuff to rebuild a large part of a
city. You _can_ keep a city supplied (ie the Berlin Airlift) but it
doesn't do any good to get a weeks worth of supplies for 100,000
people into the airport if you can't get it out to the people who need
it.

I don't know the legalities involved, but I would certainly look at
the possibility of having a plan for a Dunkirk-like evacuation by air
(no plane leaves the area without a full compliment of passengers, any
plane not grounded for maintenence issues and not already leaving is
commandeered for the evacuation, etc.) A more realistic option might
be to use any available AMC (formerly MATS) planes. Get people out of
the immediate area as quickly as possible, and then transport them (by
bus or by rail) to more settled locations.

I would also look at the feasibility of coming up with a way to
drain some of the water out of Lake Ponchetrain into the Gulf (the
eastern part of the lake is not far from the Gulf of Mexico). You
wouldn't be able to drain it dry, but every cubic foot of water you
get out of the lake would be one less cubic foot to deal with.

I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
withstand a Cat V storm.

take care,
Scott
 
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Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) wrote:
> Sorry should have read 'Kyoto Treaty'

That's okay....George W. can't pronounce it. <g>

"Ladies 'n Gents, dellow fellagates 'n such....I think it's time to
sign
that coyote treatment...can I get a hrmpff, a yeehaaaaaa and a Hoo-Ah?"


Marcel
 
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I believe there is too much reliance on Federal Government to solve all
problems. New Orleans sits under sea level and is surrounded by water,
yet the City of New Orleans had no coordinated evacuation plan in
place. When the storm approached their plan was "get out as fast as
you can". What kind of plan is that? Every major city in the US
should have a disaster plan in place and the citizens should take the
time and effort to become familiar with the plan. The greatest enemy
is complacency.
It must be addressed and this is a wake-up call.
-Greg
 
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Sorry should have read 'Kyoto Treaty'

Ibby

"Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnershipNOSPAM.co.uk> wrote in message
news:df9ct1$ck$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Maybe time for Bush to finally sign the Kyoyo Treaty and reduce emissions
> leading to global warming!! The hurricans etc are getting worse by the
> month around the Gulf of Mexico. Its a pity we haven't invented a giant
> 'waterpistol' or 'squirtgun' aircraft that can jettison the rising tides
> into outerspace or is that being too sci-fi orientated.
>
> Ibby
>
> "John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>
>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ward
>>
>
>
 
G

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"Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
> withstand a Cat V storm.
>

Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter into the
argument now.
If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never had
to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences of a
flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.

Chris
 
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The Road Runner is Vice President!!

Ibby

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125672502.593208.47910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) wrote:
>> Sorry should have read 'Kyoto Treaty'
>
> That's okay....George W. can't pronounce it. <g>
>
> "Ladies 'n Gents, dellow fellagates 'n such....I think it's time to
> sign
> that coyote treatment...can I get a hrmpff, a yeehaaaaaa and a Hoo-Ah?"
>
>
> Marcel
>
 

william

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"Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:C8qdnZ2dnZ3x2oLFnZ2dnR7Yhd6dnZ2dRVnyqp2dnZ0@pipex.net...
> "Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
>> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
>> withstand a Cat V storm.
>>
>
> Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter into
> the argument now.
> If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
> Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
> significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never had
> to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences of a
> flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.
>
> Chris

Chris I agree its a no brainer, but when you have a "no brainer" running
things then we have a problem...sorry for some politics :)
read
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

California better take a look at their situation because there will be no
warning like a hurricane
Bill
 

Jim

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>"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>
>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

I've already taken some flack for my opinion (from friends), but what
REALLY ticked me off was what I saw on TV today. A camera was rolling
past one of the centers and hundreds of people were sitting outside
it, doing absolutley nothing (I wish I could underline that). Sitting
in piles of trash, which appeared to be at least partially of their
own making. I realize they are suffering, but it seems that if
nothing else, they could have at least started cleaning up the area
they were in, just for something to do to keep busy and their minds
off their problems till help came. The area around those centers must
have parking lots, the least they could have done is started putting
their trash into a big pile in the street or one of the parking lots -
which would speed up cleanup efforts when the time comes. What I saw
was a bunch of people waiting for someone else to help them, instead
of trying at least a little bit to help themselves. It's their city,
but none of the ones on the film clip seemed to give a hoot, they
appeared to want someone else to clean up the mess for them.

So maybe I'm a heartless jerk, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic to
their situation if I saw them trying to do something instead of just
sitting.
 

Jim

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Hi again,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 22:26:59 +0100, "Simon Robbins"
<simon@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk> wrote:>
>Have you ever gone four days with food and little water, in 90 degree heat?

I spent 356 days in Viet Nam in 1969/70, if that tells you anything
(and I wasn't on a scenery tour).
But I didn't expect most people to agree with my view, so that's ok.
My point is this - in that situation, I'd rather be doing something
then just sitting around, feeling sorry for myself.

I guess this is what happens when a Flightsim forum gets off topic.
Bye bye.
 

dallas

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"John Ward"
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

The administration clearly does not understand the importance of moving
security forces quickly into urban disasters. Baghdad after the fall of
Sadam and New Orleans day five look pretty much the same to me.


Dallas
 
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Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
via
our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?
And for one built below sea level? If people and businesses wanted to
live
and do business there then should it not fall upon them to protect
themselves?
Funny that New Orleans could find the money to build a Superdome,
convention
center and a host of other magnificent facilities - yet were not able to
tax
themselves for proper levee maintenance! The finger pointing needs to
start
with the locally elected officials, not our Federal Government. Bush
bashing is way off topic in this forum and a cheap shot to boot.



"William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
news:1WXRe.11876$xw1.11557@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:C8qdnZ2dnZ3x2oLFnZ2dnR7Yhd6dnZ2dRVnyqp2dnZ0@pipex.net...
>> "Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
>>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
>>> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
>>> withstand a Cat V storm.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter
into
>> the argument now.
>> If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
>> Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
>> significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never
>> had to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences
of
>> a flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Chris I agree its a no brainer, but when you have a "no brainer" running
> things then we have a problem...sorry for some politics :)
> read
>
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_conte
nt_id=1001051313
>
> California better take a look at their situation because there will be
no
> warning like a hurricane
> Bill
>


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 1034 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!
 

william

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"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:49p1df629jtd.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> "Rick @midsouth.rr.com>" <rglisson<nospam> wrote:
>
>> Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
>> via
>> our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?
>
> Look at it this way: Had a few more millions been spent on ensuring that
> the levees were strong enough for a CAT 5 hurricane, the US gov't (aka the
> taxpayers) wouldn't have to pay the billions it will cost in security,
> cleanup, handouts, etc.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>

Wow you mean it was that easy to see? :)

Bill
 
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"Rick @midsouth.rr.com>" <rglisson<nospam> wrote:

>Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
>via
>our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?

You're already paying for a $270million bridge going to an uninhabited
island in Alaska. It was part of the pork imbedded in the highway &
transportation bill passed not too long ago!

They should at least postpone that 'bridge to nowhere' and redirect
that money to NO. But that doesn't win votes for the Alaska
politicians ;-(

-=tom=-
 

dallas

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"Rick
> Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
> via our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?

I screamed the same thing as I listened to the Louisiana politicians whine
about how the Federal Government was responsible.

But I'm afraid, legally speaking, the levee system was built and maintained
by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and therefore the responsibility of the
Feds.

Dallas
 
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"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:eu1Se.5282$Wd7.1711@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> The administration clearly does not understand the importance of moving
> security forces quickly into urban disasters. Baghdad after the fall of
> Sadam and New Orleans day five look pretty much the same to me.

I think in the long run the greatest lesson learnt might simply be humility.
It's easy for us sitting here in our (usually) comfortable western
lifestyles to look at the rest of the world's trouble-spots and consider
ourselves superior and hauty when we see looting, killing and general
disorder on the streets of Mogadishu, Baghdad, or wherever. New Orleans is
a lesson for all that the veil of society is incredibly thin, and every
country is only so far away from anarchic behaviour.

Si
 

crash

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Simon Robbins wrote:
> wherever. New Orleans is a lesson for all that the veil of society
> is incredibly thin, and every country is only so far away from
> anarchic behaviour.
>


No veil there.. I haven't been to New Orleans for decades simply because of
it's notorious, well earned, reputation, usually a regular on the top ten
list as "Murder capital of the USA", rampant gang activities, etc... We
make frequent visits to places like Houma and Natchoches, enjoying the
Louisiana hospitality, but avoid the Big Easy like the plague...
 
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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:13:34 -0400, Jim wrote:

> I've already taken some flack for my opinion (from friends)...
> So maybe I'm a heartless jerk, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic to
> their situation if I saw them trying to do something instead of just
> sitting.

Only *some flack?*

Here's a challenge for you...

Go jump in a pool for 24 hours...

Now, get out of the pool and walk 10 miles in 100+ degree heat.

Spend the next four days standing/sitting around outside with no shade in
100+ degree heat, with no food or water. Oh yes, you can't cheat and visit
the restroom, you have to use a convenient bush. No toilet paper either!

Now, go inside and clean your house completely...

<sheesh!>
 
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First things first. Having survived Ivan, the first thing you want is for
someone to fly a C-130 over and kick a pallet of bottled water and a pallet
of food (actually, the MRE's were quite good) out of the back. Ice is nice
too. If they get time, a return trip with a pallet of generators and
window-unit air conditioners would REALLY be special, but that's asking too
much.

I'm tired of hearing about the problem of delivery when we've had the
capability to make low level parachute drops from the beginning... And
there's still enough open and unused interstate to drop it off... Hell,
Canal Street (counting the bus lanes) is over ten lanes wide... If you want
to be really careful, drop some leaflets first "Where dropping a bunch of
food and water, if it hits you it's gonna hurt. Get everyone to move to the
side." If I'd been Bush after the tsunami, I'd have fired whoever came up
with the "it takes time to get the logistics in place" excuse and told the
next guy in line that I wanted a C-130 full of water and another full of
food and some guy in the back throwing it out the door in six hours or he
was going to be the guy in back in 12 hours....

BTW - anyone know how much runway they got open at Moisant (now "Louis
Armstrong Int'l") I got a friend with a plane.... Maybe with help I could
find the rest of the old Charity Hospital Ambulance crew from the early
80's... "I'm putting the band back together... we're on a mission from God".

"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> Regards,
> John Ward
>
 
G

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It was bad enough in the late 70's to mid 80's when I lived there... It's
even worse now...

"CRaSH" <sorry@aint-here.spam.com> wrote in message
news:6w3Se.157758$E95.63966@fed1read01...
> Simon Robbins wrote:
>> wherever. New Orleans is a lesson for all that the veil of society
>> is incredibly thin, and every country is only so far away from
>> anarchic behaviour.
>>
>
>
> No veil there.. I haven't been to New Orleans for decades simply because
> of it's notorious, well earned, reputation, usually a regular on the top
> ten list as "Murder capital of the USA", rampant gang activities, etc...
> We make frequent visits to places like Houma and Natchoches, enjoying the
> Louisiana hospitality, but avoid the Big Easy like the plague...
>
 

william

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Jay check this out
http://www.vacationrentalsforfamilies.com/pressreleasesep1.html



"Jay Williams" <Voodoo141@buggeroffspammercox.net> wrote in message
news:HtaSe.8422$dm.755@lakeread03...
> First things first. Having survived Ivan, the first thing you want is for
> someone to fly a C-130 over and kick a pallet of bottled water and a
> pallet of food (actually, the MRE's were quite good) out of the back. Ice
> is nice too. If they get time, a return trip with a pallet of generators
> and window-unit air conditioners would REALLY be special, but that's
> asking too much.
>
> I'm tired of hearing about the problem of delivery when we've had the
> capability to make low level parachute drops from the beginning... And
> there's still enough open and unused interstate to drop it off... Hell,
> Canal Street (counting the bus lanes) is over ten lanes wide... If you
> want to be really careful, drop some leaflets first "Where dropping a
> bunch of food and water, if it hits you it's gonna hurt. Get everyone to
> move to the side." If I'd been Bush after the tsunami, I'd have fired
> whoever came up with the "it takes time to get the logistics in place"
> excuse and told the next guy in line that I wanted a C-130 full of water
> and another full of food and some guy in the back throwing it out the door
> in six hours or he was going to be the guy in back in 12 hours....
>
> BTW - anyone know how much runway they got open at Moisant (now "Louis
> Armstrong Int'l") I got a friend with a plane.... Maybe with help I
> could find the rest of the old Charity Hospital Ambulance crew from the
> early 80's... "I'm putting the band back together... we're on a mission
> from God".
>
> "John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> Hi All,
>>
>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>
>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>>
>> Regards,
>> John Ward
>>
>
>
 

dallas

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"Tom Orle"
> You're already paying for a $270million bridge going to an uninhabited
> island in Alaska.

Oh no... you're wrong. That island is not uninhabited, Gravina Island has a
population of around 50.

It will connect to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000). The bridge
will be nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn
Bridge. They really need it because they get really tired paddling their
canoes across in the summer.

Dallas
 
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Hi Jim,

Reports here, in Australia, this morning, are indicating that armed
looters are still on the streets, there has been some rioting, the relief
problems are not yet properly addressed or effective, and that the total
bill may even go as high as $100 billion.

Pretty flabbergasting stuff, but there's no way to know how accurate any
of the reporting is, of course.

Regards,
John Ward
"Jim" <BozAir@REMOVETHISchartermi.net> wrote in message
news:vdfhh154jdpk9ot3up5p7pse7mfi9r01tm@4ax.com...
> >"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>>
>>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> I've already taken some flack for my opinion (from friends), but what
> REALLY ticked me off was what I saw on TV today. A camera was rolling
> past one of the centers and hundreds of people were sitting outside
> it, doing absolutley nothing (I wish I could underline that). Sitting
> in piles of trash, which appeared to be at least partially of their
> own making. I realize they are suffering, but it seems that if
> nothing else, they could have at least started cleaning up the area
> they were in, just for something to do to keep busy and their minds
> off their problems till help came. The area around those centers must
> have parking lots, the least they could have done is started putting
> their trash into a big pile in the street or one of the parking lots -
> which would speed up cleanup efforts when the time comes. What I saw
> was a bunch of people waiting for someone else to help them, instead
> of trying at least a little bit to help themselves. It's their city,
> but none of the ones on the film clip seemed to give a hoot, they
> appeared to want someone else to clean up the mess for them.
>
> So maybe I'm a heartless jerk, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic to
> their situation if I saw them trying to do something instead of just
> sitting.
 
G

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___| reply |__________________________________________________________
If I'd been Bush after the tsunami, I'd have fired whoever came up
with the "it takes time to get the logistics in place" excuse and told
the
next guy in line that I wanted a C-130 full of water and another full
of
food and some guy in the back throwing it out the door in six hours or
he
was going to be the guy in back in 12 hours....

_____________________________________________________________________

My first prediction, based on what happened to the former CIA director
George Tenet: a year from now, "whoever came up with the 'it takes time
to get the logistics in place' excuse" will get the presidential Medal
of Freedom, for his service to the people of Louisiana and Mississippi.


My second prediction, based on the big give-away that rolled through
both houses of Congress this summer: in six weeks, someone is going to
sponsor a second major energy bill, which will offer additional tax
incentives to oil companies that upgrade or expand their existing
refineries. We, the taxpayers, will make this sacrifice "for the sake
of national security."

_________________________________________________________
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