5-7 years back when 360 and Ps3 released, people thought lot to put 200-400$ on consoles. Situation changed now. People are now ready to go upto 600$ on consoles. MS and Sony must understand this strategy and build "real next gen consoles" with 7950's or 670 Ti's(though these gfx cards becomes stupids by 2013 end). If consoles are released as per gfx cards mentioned in rumours, I instead go with Maxwell's to replace my current 560 Ti for PC, not consoles.
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bigdog44
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PS4 would have 4 OOE AMD cores and gpu core with 6 SIMD(x64spu) on same chip plus discrete chip with same gpu core plus some L2 cache and ROPs plus UVD3.x . Nextbox720 would have same gpu cores, but on same chip along with 4 OOE IBM cores and separate chip with 32 ROPs and 36 to 40MB eDRAM. Sony would be much more dev friendly this time, but MS architecture more efficient. Both would be AT LEAST 20% more powerful than WiiU in apparent GPU power.
upgrade_1977
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[citation][nom]kinggremlin[/nom]Of course it doesn't. Building a 6GHz nitrogen cooled Ivy Bridge system with an HD 7970 Xfire setup would be a complete waste of money for a system intended to drive a display with a maximum resolution of 1920x1080. The capabilities of today's top end PC's far exceed the necessary computing power to game at HD TV resolutions, so there is no reason a console should try to compete with that.[/citation]
I don't understand why they are developing both platforms to only support 1080P when Ultra HD is the new standard and they are supposed to be releasing Ultra HD t.v.'s soon. ???
On a side note, it'll be good for PC gamers as our systems will be the only systems that will be able to push the graphics on those setups. And I don't think 1080p will look good scaled on an Ultra HD t.v. Probably look like Xbox 360 graphics on a 1080p t.v.
I don't understand why they are developing both platforms to only support 1080P when Ultra HD is the new standard and they are supposed to be releasing Ultra HD t.v.'s soon. ???
On a side note, it'll be good for PC gamers as our systems will be the only systems that will be able to push the graphics on those setups. And I don't think 1080p will look good scaled on an Ultra HD t.v. Probably look like Xbox 360 graphics on a 1080p t.v.
kinggremlin
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- Jul 14, 2009
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[citation][nom]Tomfreak[/nom]u forgot that the components price will drop at least for CPU and gpu side. 7770 is a very small chip, 2 yrs from now when TSMC move to 20nm, 28nm it is going to be very cheap to manufacture. OS in PS are linux base, this does not cost $100. I dont think microsoft are going to charge themselves $100 on their own console. u also ignored the fact that manufacturing the same hardware in mass quantity could bring down the cost.[/citation]
It doesn't matter what OS a console uses. You can't compare the cost of a console to a non-functional PC and declare the PC cheaper. In order for the comparison to make any sense, you have to include the cost of everything necessary for the system to have basic functionality. A PC without an OS is a useless box. No $100 OS for the console is an advantage it has, though the development of the custom OS it uses, regardless of whether it is based on a free version or not, is not free.
Everything else you mentioned isn't relevant to newly launched hardware. It's widely reported that Sony and MS were selling their last generation consoles at a loss when they were launched. As time goes on, prices of parts and economy of scale do bring down production costs. That's why Sony and MS are able to drop the price of the console as the years roll on, and why we get console refreshes, like the PS3 slim which uses shrunken components at lower prices which brings overall costs down.
Where do you people come up with this stuff? UHDTV is still an experimental format, it is not a standard, with hopes it can be available to the public by 2020. If that date is achieved, we are looking at a minimum of 5 years before the prices come down enough and there is sufficient content for the general public to have interest in buying one. Why the hell would Sony or MS design a console to take advantage of a format that has no official standard set that could be somewhat mainstream a dozen years from now? There is zero chance that either the PS5 or XBox 1440 will support that format even if everything goes smoothly with UHDTV.
It doesn't matter what OS a console uses. You can't compare the cost of a console to a non-functional PC and declare the PC cheaper. In order for the comparison to make any sense, you have to include the cost of everything necessary for the system to have basic functionality. A PC without an OS is a useless box. No $100 OS for the console is an advantage it has, though the development of the custom OS it uses, regardless of whether it is based on a free version or not, is not free.
Everything else you mentioned isn't relevant to newly launched hardware. It's widely reported that Sony and MS were selling their last generation consoles at a loss when they were launched. As time goes on, prices of parts and economy of scale do bring down production costs. That's why Sony and MS are able to drop the price of the console as the years roll on, and why we get console refreshes, like the PS3 slim which uses shrunken components at lower prices which brings overall costs down.
Where do you people come up with this stuff? UHDTV is still an experimental format, it is not a standard, with hopes it can be available to the public by 2020. If that date is achieved, we are looking at a minimum of 5 years before the prices come down enough and there is sufficient content for the general public to have interest in buying one. Why the hell would Sony or MS design a console to take advantage of a format that has no official standard set that could be somewhat mainstream a dozen years from now? There is zero chance that either the PS5 or XBox 1440 will support that format even if everything goes smoothly with UHDTV.
Why do you guys need the ultra-modern GFX cards for 1080p anyway?
Rendering complex scenes at 60 FPS is enough for most consumers, nobody needs insane levels of anti-aliasing (etc.) on consoles since people usually sit relatively far from their TVs to pay attention to adjacent pixels.
Consoles are built for the mass market and have to be more "arcady" devices than PCs. It means that few, very few consumers would care about (or even notice) things like the somewhat increased detail of remote objects on the horizon. The market is simply not willing to pay extra hundreds of dollars for these things.
What we really, truly need in consoles is a more powerful CPU, more memory, faster HDDs (or even SSDs). Nobody likes to see "Loading..." between missions. Nobody likes dumb AI, identically-looking and sounding NPCs, reduced complexity of the world and gameplay, etc. I can tolerate 2xAA instead of 8xAA if the game is immersive enough for me to get lost in it for hours.
Rendering complex scenes at 60 FPS is enough for most consumers, nobody needs insane levels of anti-aliasing (etc.) on consoles since people usually sit relatively far from their TVs to pay attention to adjacent pixels.
Consoles are built for the mass market and have to be more "arcady" devices than PCs. It means that few, very few consumers would care about (or even notice) things like the somewhat increased detail of remote objects on the horizon. The market is simply not willing to pay extra hundreds of dollars for these things.
What we really, truly need in consoles is a more powerful CPU, more memory, faster HDDs (or even SSDs). Nobody likes to see "Loading..." between missions. Nobody likes dumb AI, identically-looking and sounding NPCs, reduced complexity of the world and gameplay, etc. I can tolerate 2xAA instead of 8xAA if the game is immersive enough for me to get lost in it for hours.
7600 Series for both consoles?????
30 FPS????
If thats Next Gen, then ma HD5770 is from another galaxy.
Of Course money: 1 more graphics and fps: 0
Keep playing on pc... at least it can be updated and kill any console easily.
30 FPS????
If thats Next Gen, then ma HD5770 is from another galaxy.
Of Course money: 1 more graphics and fps: 0
Keep playing on pc... at least it can be updated and kill any console easily.
andrewcarr
Distinguished
- Nov 11, 2011
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So they make us spend close to $400 (estimate) on what is considered the very bottom end (minimum stuff I would recommend) on a computer. What progress is this? So much for hoping the next counsels would help further gamer graphics and development.
bigdog44
Honorable
- Apr 6, 2012
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Forgot to mention on last post that the "AT LEAST 20% more powerful gpu.." statement was based upon rumor of WiiU having an HD4870, but I think 4770 is more likely, which would boost this % higher. With the added cost of its touchscreen controller, nintendo will need to save costs wherever it can.
bigdog44
Honorable
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Sony's focus this time around should be based upon entry cost and the afore mentioned ease for programming,which by using mostly AMD based hardware makes sense for porting whether developing for PC first or PS4. MS will also be looking at entry cost as well as putting the whole RROD issue behind them. Since the initial chips will probably be 32nm parts they could theoretically afford almost 8x the die space, but instead will only increase transistor count overall by a bit more than 4x over the xbox360, and adjusting clocks to reach the desired thermals. They will continue to be more software focused with some hardware architecture flexibility. I think their best bet would be to use a company like Samsung for their manufacturing expertise and some of their components and also maybe use them for a hybrid Windows phone/game controller.
shin0bi272
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@kinggremlin: I just went onto newegg and built the cheapest quad core, 4gb ram, 320gb hd, bluray burner, 500watt psu, keyboard, mouse, legit copy of win7 pro, amd 6790 1gb, and case... without any mail in rebates and with shipping $675. $140 of that is the OS.
You can however get a dell for 489.99 with an athlon x2 250, 1tb hd, amd 6450gpu, 4gb of ram, and win7 home premium... but its not going to have the performance of the self built system above.
So in the end... maybe in 2 years you can get a quad core system with dx11 (256bit memory interface) for under 500 but currently youre right building one yourself (which of course the pc and console manufacturers dont have the problem of paying retail prices obviously) is about 75-100 more expensive (assuming $600 PS3 launch price) than buying a console. Of course the other end of that is upgradability and the ability to do more than just game on it.
You can however get a dell for 489.99 with an athlon x2 250, 1tb hd, amd 6450gpu, 4gb of ram, and win7 home premium... but its not going to have the performance of the self built system above.
So in the end... maybe in 2 years you can get a quad core system with dx11 (256bit memory interface) for under 500 but currently youre right building one yourself (which of course the pc and console manufacturers dont have the problem of paying retail prices obviously) is about 75-100 more expensive (assuming $600 PS3 launch price) than buying a console. Of course the other end of that is upgradability and the ability to do more than just game on it.
serendipiti
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- Aug 9, 2010
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[citation][nom]hellfire24[/nom]a $700-$800 pc would kill both of them![/citation]
[citation][nom]ecleveland5[/nom]But this will need to be in a complete package with manufacturing costs around $300 or so to allow them some profit margin.[/citation]
$700 would be a whole PC (with monitor and keyboard, and would be a far better system) I think you can get a lowcost box able to outperform PS4/Xbox720 hardware by 400$ or 300$ (in fact, the target price for that consoles ?)
Another question I think is that currently to get a visually rich experience, GPU processing power is secondary to human art-knowledge-dedication. Just take a look at game screens at different quality settings to realise that above medium quality it is often hard to tell the difference. PCs require / mean a different approach than consoles (standard hardware vs heteregenous hardware: but always pursuing the best that can be afforded).
In any case, Wii showed where the development would head: the UI (Kinect, PS Move). And this should mean CPU power (and they are talking of the A8: the stars architecture on a 2014 PS ?... seems that Sony and MS are kidding us...
[citation][nom]ecleveland5[/nom]But this will need to be in a complete package with manufacturing costs around $300 or so to allow them some profit margin.[/citation]
$700 would be a whole PC (with monitor and keyboard, and would be a far better system) I think you can get a lowcost box able to outperform PS4/Xbox720 hardware by 400$ or 300$ (in fact, the target price for that consoles ?)
Another question I think is that currently to get a visually rich experience, GPU processing power is secondary to human art-knowledge-dedication. Just take a look at game screens at different quality settings to realise that above medium quality it is often hard to tell the difference. PCs require / mean a different approach than consoles (standard hardware vs heteregenous hardware: but always pursuing the best that can be afforded).
In any case, Wii showed where the development would head: the UI (Kinect, PS Move). And this should mean CPU power (and they are talking of the A8: the stars architecture on a 2014 PS ?... seems that Sony and MS are kidding us...
[citation][nom]upgrade_1977[/nom]I don't understand why they are developing both platforms to only support 1080P when Ultra HD is the new standard and they are supposed to be releasing Ultra HD t.v.'s soon. ???On a side note, it'll be good for PC gamers as our systems will be the only systems that will be able to push the graphics on those setups. And I don't think 1080p will look good scaled on an Ultra HD t.v. Probably look like Xbox 360 graphics on a 1080p t.v.[/citation]
Ultra HD will not be the standard until either the end of this next console cycle or the the start of the one after this.
Cable/TV still broadcast HD @ 720p/1080i and will probably not derive from this standard due to bandwidth limitations for some time. Because of this, the sale and marketing of TV's w/ Ultra HD will be a novelty for the foreseeable future, just like what 3D is.
As for what 1080p will look like on Ultra HD, that is hard to determine, but the fact that the X360 looks better at 1080p then 720p due to its advanced up-scaler. I doubt that it will look worse.
Just because the technology is demoed and available for purchase doesn't mean its ready for the mass market.
Until the cost of the TV's come to within the range that TV's are selling for now, no one will purchases it unless they have the money to throw around. The Ultra wealthy could afford a UHD TV in within the first 3 generations but for the average consumer, it will be priced far beyond what they expect and feel comfortable paying for a TV based on the market over the past 2-4 years.
Ultra HD will not be the standard until either the end of this next console cycle or the the start of the one after this.
Cable/TV still broadcast HD @ 720p/1080i and will probably not derive from this standard due to bandwidth limitations for some time. Because of this, the sale and marketing of TV's w/ Ultra HD will be a novelty for the foreseeable future, just like what 3D is.
As for what 1080p will look like on Ultra HD, that is hard to determine, but the fact that the X360 looks better at 1080p then 720p due to its advanced up-scaler. I doubt that it will look worse.
Just because the technology is demoed and available for purchase doesn't mean its ready for the mass market.
Until the cost of the TV's come to within the range that TV's are selling for now, no one will purchases it unless they have the money to throw around. The Ultra wealthy could afford a UHD TV in within the first 3 generations but for the average consumer, it will be priced far beyond what they expect and feel comfortable paying for a TV based on the market over the past 2-4 years.
The low powered gpu on the apu will probably be used for cuda type computing, like running physics and stuff
gray_fox_98
Honorable
- Apr 6, 2012
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The next big thing in graphics will be Raytracing (and better physics). (PS5 , XBOX4 Timeline)
If you not familiar with the term , have a look on wikipedia.
Here is an apetizer:
"In computer graphics, ray tracing is a technique for generating an image by tracing the path of light through pixels in an image plane and simulating the effects of its encounters with virtual objects. The technique is capable of producing a very high degree of visual realism, usually higher than that of typical scanline rendering methods, but at a greater computational cost. This makes ray tracing best suited for applications where the image can be rendered slowly ahead of time, such as in still images and film and television special effects, and more poorly suited for real-time applications like video games where speed is critical. Ray tracing is capable of simulating a wide variety of optical effects, such as reflection and refraction, scattering, and dispersion phenomena (such as chromatic aberration)."
Ray Processing Unit (RPU) are being developed , and the API its out there. "OpenRT ".
Sony and Ms need to start working on it as soon as possible.
If you not familiar with the term , have a look on wikipedia.
Here is an apetizer:
"In computer graphics, ray tracing is a technique for generating an image by tracing the path of light through pixels in an image plane and simulating the effects of its encounters with virtual objects. The technique is capable of producing a very high degree of visual realism, usually higher than that of typical scanline rendering methods, but at a greater computational cost. This makes ray tracing best suited for applications where the image can be rendered slowly ahead of time, such as in still images and film and television special effects, and more poorly suited for real-time applications like video games where speed is critical. Ray tracing is capable of simulating a wide variety of optical effects, such as reflection and refraction, scattering, and dispersion phenomena (such as chromatic aberration)."
Ray Processing Unit (RPU) are being developed , and the API its out there. "OpenRT ".
Sony and Ms need to start working on it as soon as possible.
gray_fox_98
Honorable
- Apr 6, 2012
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he computational independence of each ray makes ray tracing amenable to parallelization.
The CELL CPU would be perfect for this. I can see Sony re-using this chip just for raytracing in the PS5.
While having a regular GPU to do rasterization.
The CELL CPU would be perfect for this. I can see Sony re-using this chip just for raytracing in the PS5.
While having a regular GPU to do rasterization.
kinggremlin
Distinguished
- Jul 14, 2009
- 574
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- 19,010
[citation][nom]shin0bi272[/nom]@kinggremlin: I just went onto newegg and built the cheapest quad core, 4gb ram, 320gb hd, bluray burner, 500watt psu, keyboard, mouse, legit copy of win7 pro, amd 6790 1gb, and case... without any mail in rebates and with shipping $675. $140 of that is the OS. You can however get a dell for 489.99 with an athlon x2 250, 1tb hd, amd 6450gpu, 4gb of ram, and win7 home premium... but its not going to have the performance of the self built system above. So in the end... maybe in 2 years you can get a quad core system with dx11 (256bit memory interface) for under 500 but currently youre right building one yourself (which of course the pc and console manufacturers dont have the problem of paying retail prices obviously) is about 75-100 more expensive (assuming $600 PS3 launch price) than buying a console. Of course the other end of that is upgradability and the ability to do more than just game on it.[/citation]
Great. Now squeeze everything into a box the size of a typical console. When you figure out it isn't going to fit, go back and buy parts that are smaller and give us a new price. When you still can't fit them, go get an estimate of what it will cost to redesign the parts so they will, and then build a prototype.
Do you see where this is going? You people have a piss poor understanding of what kind of R&D goes into building a console. Sony didn't release the PS3 at $600 because they wanted to or because they were trying to price gouge the consumers. They sold it for $600 because however much that was below what they were paying for just the parts was the most they wanted to lose per console.
You can't build a console by pricing out roughly equivalent parts on Newegg. If it was that easy, Sony and MS wouldn't have to charge so much at launch and they wouldn't have to wait so long between generations.
Great. Now squeeze everything into a box the size of a typical console. When you figure out it isn't going to fit, go back and buy parts that are smaller and give us a new price. When you still can't fit them, go get an estimate of what it will cost to redesign the parts so they will, and then build a prototype.
Do you see where this is going? You people have a piss poor understanding of what kind of R&D goes into building a console. Sony didn't release the PS3 at $600 because they wanted to or because they were trying to price gouge the consumers. They sold it for $600 because however much that was below what they were paying for just the parts was the most they wanted to lose per console.
You can't build a console by pricing out roughly equivalent parts on Newegg. If it was that easy, Sony and MS wouldn't have to charge so much at launch and they wouldn't have to wait so long between generations.
hellfire24
Splendid
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if you pay a little more attention then you will find that i said *both of them*.and the performance will be far much better than a console.
anonymous32111
Distinguished
- Dec 27, 2010
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To everyone bitching about the graphics: cmon guys; why does emulating a ps2 take so much out of our pc's with all this great hardware? Because the programming isnt perfect, but more importantly because consoles make use of multiple chips to handle timing and what not for certain functions.
With this hardware i bet you they will render at 1080p natively, with some decent settings too!
Well theres my two cents, ill be buying the ps4 just for the sole fact that Microsoft wants to sell me "XBOX LIVE" a.k.a my own internet connection. They still have the audacity to serve you countless advertisements. Somebody please enlighten me if LIVE actually provides / hosts any service, seems like even after you do pay for live all you get are more bullshit advertisements.
With this hardware i bet you they will render at 1080p natively, with some decent settings too!
Well theres my two cents, ill be buying the ps4 just for the sole fact that Microsoft wants to sell me "XBOX LIVE" a.k.a my own internet connection. They still have the audacity to serve you countless advertisements. Somebody please enlighten me if LIVE actually provides / hosts any service, seems like even after you do pay for live all you get are more bullshit advertisements.
photonboy
Titan
- Jun 20, 2006
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Bottom line:
The XBOX 720 will have had EIGHT year of hardware and software improvements behind it and all people can whine about is that it will "suck" because they heard it will have the equivalent of a $60 Graphics card.
The next-gen XBOX/Playstation consoles are going to look far better than current gen and cost a reasonable amount of money.
There are all sorts of tweaks and optimizations that you can do for a dedicated system that you can't do for a PC.
Apples and Oranges people.
Don't compare the next XBOX to PC's, compare it to the last XBOX from 2005.
The XBOX 720 will have had EIGHT year of hardware and software improvements behind it and all people can whine about is that it will "suck" because they heard it will have the equivalent of a $60 Graphics card.
The next-gen XBOX/Playstation consoles are going to look far better than current gen and cost a reasonable amount of money.
There are all sorts of tweaks and optimizations that you can do for a dedicated system that you can't do for a PC.
Apples and Oranges people.
Don't compare the next XBOX to PC's, compare it to the last XBOX from 2005.
hellfire24
Splendid
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jr_captain
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- Nov 7, 2006
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[citation][nom]Alchemy69[/nom]If the Playstation 3 has the edge on Microsoft's new console then there's something very wrong somewhere.[/citation]
How come when I look at the same game for both current platforms, the XBox can do 1080p but the PS3 maxes out at 720p.
How come when I look at the same game for both current platforms, the XBox can do 1080p but the PS3 maxes out at 720p.
upgrade_1977
Distinguished
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[citation][nom]kinggremlin[/nom]Where do you people come up with this stuff? UHDTV is still an experimental format, it is not a standard, with hopes it can be available to the public by 2020. If that date is achieved, we are looking at a minimum of 5 years before the prices come down enough and there is sufficient content for the general public to have interest in buying one. Why the hell would Sony or MS design a console to take advantage of a format that has no official standard set that could be somewhat mainstream a dozen years from now? There is zero chance that either the PS5 or XBox 1440 will support that format even if everything goes smoothly with UHDTV.[/citation]
ROFL, where do I come up with this stuff??
I READ.. Maybe you should do a little research before you troll forums. LG and Toshiba already both have Ultra HD t.v.s. out. Just not in the US yet, and they super expensive.
http://www.gizmag.com/toshiba-55zlz-55-inch-glasses-free-3d-tv/19692/
[quoteT]Toshiba has taken the wraps off a 55-inch, 16:9 ratio LED backlit TV with glasses free 3D capability and Quad Full HD resolution. That's a massive 3,840 x 2,160 pixels, or in other words, four times as many pixels as a 1920 x 1080p TV[/quote]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2084331/New-Years-high-resolution-LG-unveils-Ultra-HD-TV--new-type-hi-def-pictures-sharp-IMAX.html
Nice speculation though....... 10 years huh? At the rate new technology is being released, i'd say it'll be available and somewhat affordable within the next 2-3 years. Look at the ipad 3's screen if you don't think so.
Lets see PS4 or XBOX 720 run at those resolutions "WHEN" they come out in the next year or so. PC's can already run those resolutions.
ROFL, where do I come up with this stuff??
I READ.. Maybe you should do a little research before you troll forums. LG and Toshiba already both have Ultra HD t.v.s. out. Just not in the US yet, and they super expensive.
http://www.gizmag.com/toshiba-55zlz-55-inch-glasses-free-3d-tv/19692/
[quoteT]Toshiba has taken the wraps off a 55-inch, 16:9 ratio LED backlit TV with glasses free 3D capability and Quad Full HD resolution. That's a massive 3,840 x 2,160 pixels, or in other words, four times as many pixels as a 1920 x 1080p TV[/quote]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2084331/New-Years-high-resolution-LG-unveils-Ultra-HD-TV--new-type-hi-def-pictures-sharp-IMAX.html
Nice speculation though....... 10 years huh? At the rate new technology is being released, i'd say it'll be available and somewhat affordable within the next 2-3 years. Look at the ipad 3's screen if you don't think so.
Lets see PS4 or XBOX 720 run at those resolutions "WHEN" they come out in the next year or so. PC's can already run those resolutions.
upgrade_1977
Distinguished
- May 5, 2011
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[citation][nom]Jprobes[/nom]Ultra HD will not be the standard until either the end of this next console cycle or the the start of the one after this.Cable/TV still broadcast HD @ 720p/1080i and will probably not derive from this standard due to bandwidth limitations for some time. Because of this, the sale and marketing of TV's w/ Ultra HD will be a novelty for the foreseeable future, just like what 3D is.As for what 1080p will look like on Ultra HD, that is hard to determine, but the fact that the X360 looks better at 1080p then 720p due to its advanced up-scaler. I doubt that it will look worse.Just because the technology is demoed and available for purchase doesn't mean its ready for the mass market.Until the cost of the TV's come to within the range that TV's are selling for now, no one will purchases it unless they have the money to throw around. The Ultra wealthy could afford a UHD TV in within the first 3 generations but for the average consumer, it will be priced far beyond what they expect and feel comfortable paying for a TV based on the market over the past 2-4 years.[/citation]
See my last post. As for the pricing, I remember 10 years ago when LCD's where $10,000+ for a decent sized LCD or Plasma, now you can pick them up all day long for under a grand. I'm not gonna argue over predictions of the cost of emerging technologies, but I think your wrong. Just walk into any electronics store and look at the prices.
See my last post. As for the pricing, I remember 10 years ago when LCD's where $10,000+ for a decent sized LCD or Plasma, now you can pick them up all day long for under a grand. I'm not gonna argue over predictions of the cost of emerging technologies, but I think your wrong. Just walk into any electronics store and look at the prices.
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