Recording a Banjo - Recommendations

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I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
recommendations for where to position microphones?

My recording room is about 15x20 and not extremely dead (and the room
sound isn't good). I do have a couple of movable partitions that I can use
to deaden an area.

My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate sounds.
Here's a quick list of what I have:
Shure KSM-44
Shure KSM-32
CAD M179
Oktava M012
A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
Aphex preamp
Computer audio interface

Any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Since many of you are
probably not familiar with my gear, just tell me what you used, and I'll
see if I can translate it to my gear (I worked in a couple of pro
studios).
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

James_Jonasson wrote:
> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks.
Any
> recommendations for where to position microphones?

As far away as possible?


Steve

> My recording room is about 15x20 and not extremely dead (and the room
> sound isn't good). I do have a couple of movable partitions that I
can use
> to deaden an area.
>
> My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate
sounds.
> Here's a quick list of what I have:
> Shure KSM-44
> Shure KSM-32
> CAD M179
> Oktava M012
> A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
> Aphex preamp
> Computer audio interface
>
> Any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Since many of you are
> probably not familiar with my gear, just tell me what you used, and
I'll
> see if I can translate it to my gear (I worked in a couple of pro
> studios).
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James_Jonasson" <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> laid this on me:

> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks.
> Any recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> My recording room is about 15x20 and not extremely dead (and the room
> sound isn't good). I do have a couple of movable partitions that I can
> use to deaden an area.
>
> My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate sounds.
> Here's a quick list of what I have:
> Shure KSM-44
> Shure KSM-32
> CAD M179
> Oktava M012
> A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
> Aphex preamp
> Computer audio interface
>
> Any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Since many of you are
> probably not familiar with my gear, just tell me what you used, and
> I'll see if I can translate it to my gear (I worked in a couple of pro
> studios).

Assuming a 5 string banjo, picked with fingerpicks in the Scruggs
style...
Without hearing the context/song/arrangement/room/banjo/etc, it's hard
to reccomend mics/etc, but I will say, don't rule out the 57, they can be
great on banjo if the everything else is right. I'll leave that to your
ears, though, I'm sure you know your gear better than anyone else here.
The one thing about banjo that folks who aren't familiar with it miss
is the need for space. Sometimes I walk in, and guys cram a bright n' tight
SDC 6 inches away from the banjo, then complain about how 'pinched' the
banjo sounds. I ususally gently reccomend backing it up, and a quality omni
(or figure 8 if you have a great ribbon) in the right room can sound
positively divine. I know you said your room isn't great, and the banjo will
activate space, but if the tone sounds more 'pinched' than it does while
listening live, back the mic up. A couple feet away is not uncommon, if you
have to treat the room a little, so be it.
Pointing it at the 12th fret won't get the same results as guitar.
Don't be afraid to try pointing the mic below the player's right hand.
Spaced pair can be great as well, but is rarely necesarry. The picks make a
lot of clatter, even with good players. Ergo, don't point the mic at the
picks hitting the strings, the sound comes off the head, not the strings.
Attack is rarely a problem on banjo, go for a clear (not always totally
clean, though..), full tone.
Of course, none of this will matter if the banjo isn't properly set
up. Don't know how I can help you out there, but it is important.
Good luck.

Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

seans_at_efn.org
http://www.efn.org/~seans
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Sean S wrote:
> There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
> typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
> eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
> Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

It's only been about ten years. 20 if you push it. So give it a little
time. Yeah I know there's more than a million monkeys.
 
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"James_Jonasson" <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> wrote in message
news:0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com...

> My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate sounds.
> Here's a quick list of what I have:
> Shure KSM-44
> Shure KSM-32
> CAD M179
> Oktava M012
> A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
> Aphex preamp
> Computer audio interface

A clean Oktava can do a surprisingly good job. Is this a bluegrass
fingerpicked banjo or an old-time (open-backed) clawhammer banjo? If you
have multiple capsules for the Oktava, try the hypercardioid, particularly
if your banjo is bluegrass (the hyper is a little softer on top). The Shure
KSM's are also possibilities, but I'd try the Oktava first; banjos and small
diaphragms seem to go well together. Don't use any of the "drive" stuff on
the Aphex. In that room, don't get too far away.

Peace,
Paul
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

One thing that seems to be missing here, apart from the recommendation to experiment, is that you
should be willing to test things out.

Do this:

Set up all these mics in a kind of semi circle in front of where the banjo player will stand/sit,
assuming you have the channels on your console available to do so, and then crank them up and listen
to the sound. It won't be "accurate", but it will give you a side by side comparison in real time
and help you to determine which mics to eliminate from further testing.

Second, move the mics around, one at a time, of course, to find the "sweet spot" for each microphone
on a given instrument/voice. If you have a helper, this can be done very quickly (assuming, too,
they understand the concept of mic placement). You can then tell them to stop when you hit that
spot. Mark it for that mic. Move on to the next mic, leaving that mic in the spot (if possible).
When two mic occupy the same space as the spot, then you'll have to adjust to the situation.

However, this will do a couple things for you. First, it will help you to gain a greater
understanding of your microphones and second, it will help you learn more about mic placement and
third, you will learn that banjos just don't like being recorded... it's evidence against them!! 😉

Seriously, though, when you buy a new mic, one you don't quite understand, spend time with it and
learn about what it can do for you. If you have a good store rep, they may even let you take it home
to test before purchasing.

When I was demo'ing some mic pres, I hooked them up and recorded a guitar track and a vocal track
for each mic pre. I did this "side by side" on the multitrack so i could punch between the tracks to
hear the printed sound they made. I used two different mics, one LDC and one dynamic. So I ran two
separate tests for each pre, one for condenser, one for dynamic as a base line.

Now I could hear what the pres were doing to the instrument and voice, the differences between them,
within a few seconds. It helped me to hear which pre was good for guitar/instruments and which was
good for vocals and what mic type worked with a given pre. It's not the most discriminating test,
but your ears are the best tool you have, really.

It took time to set up the comparison test, but I had a printed record of their performance for
future reference, too. And I got to play with some really expensive pres, too. The gear guy at the
place I frequented at the time was really cool about letting me take stuff home to demo it before
deciding to buy or not. Gotta love that!

--fletch


James_Jonasson wrote:
> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
> recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> My recording room is about 15x20 and not extremely dead (and the room
> sound isn't good). I do have a couple of movable partitions that I can use
> to deaden an area.
>
> My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate sounds.
> Here's a quick list of what I have:
> Shure KSM-44
> Shure KSM-32
> CAD M179
> Oktava M012
> A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
> Aphex preamp
> Computer audio interface
>
> Any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Since many of you are
> probably not familiar with my gear, just tell me what you used, and I'll
> see if I can translate it to my gear (I worked in a couple of pro
> studios).
>
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com> mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com writes:

> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
> recommendations for where to position microphones?

Ask the banjo player. It's hard to go wrong with your KSM-44 about a
foot and a half in front of the banjo as a starting point.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article
<0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com>,
"James_Jonasson" <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> wrote:

> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
> recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> My recording room is about 15x20 and not extremely dead (and the room
> sound isn't good). I do have a couple of movable partitions that I can use
> to deaden an area.
>
> My gear is pretty basic, but I can usually get clean, accurate sounds.
> Here's a quick list of what I have:
> Shure KSM-44
> Shure KSM-32
> CAD M179
> Oktava M012
> A couple of dynamics (a Sennheiser and an old 57)
> Aphex preamp
> Computer audio interface
>
> Any suggestions would be highly appreciated. Since many of you are
> probably not familiar with my gear, just tell me what you used, and I'll
> see if I can translate it to my gear (I worked in a couple of pro
> studios).

Experiment, experiment, experiment. I've recorded a lot of banjo stuff,
and one thing I've learned is that every banjo is different (much more
so than guitars). Even a player's style can change what you'll choose as
your mic/performer position. Use the finger in one ear trick to start
you off, but don't be afraid to try positions that seem unreasonable.
You might be pleasantly surprised.

Phil

--
Phil Oliver
Aardvark Graphics & Sound
remove _removespam for email replies
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Thank you all for the comments (especially the ones containing suggestions
about how to approach this). If I ever need recommendations again, I'll
remember to include the style and more info about the instrument.

In this case, the player is phenomenal. He is using a beat up banjo
(closed back, I believe). The sound is a little mushy, so I'll probably
start with the Oktava for the extra high end. The song style is folk and
the banjo part is kind of like old time country (uptempo).

Thanks again to all.
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

James_Jonasson Wrote:
> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks.
> Any
> recommendations for where to position microphones?

A ribbon mic somewhere in front of the instrument usually works pretty
well... it's really not that hard a sound to record.


--
Fletcher
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

A KSM32 is my mic of choice for banjo, and you just happen to have
one...
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

<sstevelp@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1109730428.288825.37950@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> James_Jonasson wrote:
>> I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks.
> Any
>> recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> As far away as possible?

Director: "How far can you pull back?"
Engineer: "How do you feel about Cleveland?".
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Take the largest, heaviest mic, and put in on a stand about five feet above
the banjo in a broken clip. Play lots of kick drum tracks loudly in the
same room, and hopefully the problem will be solved. ;>)

I just hope for your sake you don't have any bagpipe sessions that need
discussion here. ;>)

As always, and seriously this time, experiment. A good condensor, and I'd
think a spot with lots of diffuse early reflections nearby would help. A
distinct reflection or two getting in the pickup of the mic field might be
disasterous, and I think the banjo needs some liveness right around it to
sound good.

Best regards,

John
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1109766894k@trad...
>
> In article <0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com>
mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com writes:
>
> > I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks.
Any
> > recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> Ask the banjo player. It's hard to go wrong with your KSM-44 about a
> foot and a half in front of the banjo as a starting point.
>
Given what you have to work with, I'd go along with what Mike said. I
average recording banjo on 5 or 6 tracks a month' I usually use a THE mic
with a 25mm capsule if I'm setting up a mic just for the banjo (my banjo
player usually doubles on mandolin), and often use a Gefell M592 (which I
usually use for mandolin anyway) for the banjo.

Fletcher's suggestion about using a ribbon works great, but it's more of an
'old fashioned' banjo sound, not the type of sound I'm hearing on the radio
these days (underneath country and some americana tracks).

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
 
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In article <07e03d265a5e4b77bea308b528a513f9@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com> mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com writes:

> Thank you all for the comments (especially the ones containing suggestions
> about how to approach this). If I ever need recommendations again, I'll
> remember to include the style and more info about the instrument.

James, all the advice given here is the same no matter what the
instrument is. It all boils down to put up a mic, listen to what you
get out of it, and if you're not happy, change something. It's not
that hard, and there isn't much that comes out of a banjo in any
direction that doesn't sound like a banjo.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the context. If
this is solo banjo, that's one thing. If, as I recall, you're adding
a banjo track to a song, the sound of the banjo has to fit in with the
song. Don't be afraid to adjust the EQ accordingly.

> He is using a beat up banjo
> (closed back, I believe). The sound is a little mushy, so I'll probably
> start with the Oktava for the extra high end.

A mic that has a high end boost isn't going going to put something
there that doesn't come out of the banjo. Most old time music is
played on an open back banjo (some of them are indeed beat up).
Hopefully the player knows what he's going to record, or you've chosen
the right player for your track.

I don't mean to oversimplfy this. I play old time banjo myself.
Players who are into the sound, like players of any other instrument,
get the sound from the instrument and their technique, not from what
someone does in the studio. Players like Dan Gellert (who shows up
here occasionally) have a bunch of banjos and take the time to find
the best way to record the subtle differences between them because
that's what's important to them and why they choose to play a
particular banjo on a certain song.

But if all you want is a banjo track, put up a mic and start rolling.
If what the player is giving you is good, you can hardly miss. If it's
not, there's nothing you can do with a mic that will make it right.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 2 Mar 2005 18:06:03 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>
>In article <07e03d265a5e4b77bea308b528a513f9@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com> mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com writes:
>
>> Thank you all for the comments (especially the ones containing suggestions
>> about how to approach this). If I ever need recommendations again, I'll
>> remember to include the style and more info about the instrument.
>
>James, all the advice given here is the same no matter what the
>instrument is. It all boils down to put up a mic, listen to what you
>get out of it, and if you're not happy, change something. It's not
>that hard, and there isn't much that comes out of a banjo in any
>direction that doesn't sound like a banjo.
>
>One thing that I don't think has been mentioned is the context. If
>this is solo banjo, that's one thing. If, as I recall, you're adding
>a banjo track to a song, the sound of the banjo has to fit in with the
>song. Don't be afraid to adjust the EQ accordingly.
>
>> He is using a beat up banjo
>> (closed back, I believe). The sound is a little mushy, so I'll probably
>> start with the Oktava for the extra high end.
>
>A mic that has a high end boost isn't going going to put something
>there that doesn't come out of the banjo. Most old time music is
>played on an open back banjo (some of them are indeed beat up).
>Hopefully the player knows what he's going to record, or you've chosen
>the right player for your track.
>
>I don't mean to oversimplfy this. I play old time banjo myself.
>Players who are into the sound, like players of any other instrument,
>get the sound from the instrument and their technique, not from what
>someone does in the studio. Players like Dan Gellert (who shows up
>here occasionally) have a bunch of banjos and take the time to find
>the best way to record the subtle differences between them because
>that's what's important to them and why they choose to play a
>particular banjo on a certain song.
>
>But if all you want is a banjo track, put up a mic and start rolling.
>If what the player is giving you is good, you can hardly miss. If it's
>not, there's nothing you can do with a mic that will make it right.

There are also things you can do to the banjo itself to change the
sound, such as changing head tension, different bridges, etc. If the
player is on the inexperienced side, they may not be aware of how
these adjustments can affect the sound.

Al
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"James_Jonasson" <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> wrote in message
news:07e03d265a5e4b77bea308b528a513f9@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com...
> Thank you all for the comments (especially the ones containing suggestions
> about how to approach this). If I ever need recommendations again, I'll
> remember to include the style and more info about the instrument.
>
> In this case, the player is phenomenal. He is using a beat up banjo
> (closed back, I believe). The sound is a little mushy, so I'll probably
> start with the Oktava for the extra high end. The song style is folk and
> the banjo part is kind of like old time country (uptempo).
>
> Thanks again to all.
>


I find that high end is never lacking on the vast majority of banjos
that I've recorded or miked in a live situation. In the style you are
looking at here, I would take a dynamic, like an RE-20, at about a
foot out and just north of or right below the picking hand. Sometimes
too much detail on a banjo (depending on the player) makes the
instrument a little tough to listen to. The raw instrument may sound
mushy to your ears right now, but a condenser will hear things quite
a bit differently.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com
Morgan Audio Media Service
Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901
_______________________________________
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com>,
James_Jonasson <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> wrote:

>I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
>recommendations for where to position microphones?

Strummed, plucked, or fingerpicked?

(I half expect to read posts from the guy who records Bela Fleck
or Kang now).
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"james" <fishbowl@conservatory.com> wrote in message
news:iwpVd.1938$8k2.487@fed1read03...
> In article
<0f33da679577d819900d8d3d60686a8e@localhost.talkaboutaudio.com>,
> James_Jonasson <mail@jamesjonasson-nospam-.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm going to be adding a banjo to a song in the next couple of weeks. Any
> >recommendations for where to position microphones?
>
> Strummed, plucked, or fingerpicked?
>
> (I half expect to read posts from the guy who records Bela Fleck
> or Kang now).
>
Bil Vorndick doesn't hang around here...

--
Dave Martin
DMA, Inc
Nashville, TN
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Phil Oliver wrote:

> so than guitars). Even a player's style can change what you'll choose as
> your mic/performer position. Use the finger in one ear trick to start
> you off, but don't be afraid to try positions that seem unreasonable.
> You might be pleasantly surprised.


For an example:

http://www.nvrsk.net/~dexter/funpics/misc/banjo.jpg
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

87 in omni. Great mic pre. And don't get too close.



David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <2pjc219pbe93ce076qr9vjb35u7fonai1t@4ax.com> playonAT@comcast.net writes:

> There are also things you can do to the banjo itself to change the
> sound, such as changing head tension, different bridges, etc. If the
> player is on the inexperienced side, they may not be aware of how
> these adjustments can affect the sound.

Same with drums, same with guitars (and amps), same with just about
any instruments. You can regulate a piano differently for different
kinds of music and for different players. You can use a different reed
or mouthpiece. You can use a different kind of pick.

The bottom line is that the guy has a banjo player coming over. He's
not sure what to expect. He should put a mic in front of the banjo and
record something.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On 3 Mar 2005 10:15:11 -0500, mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

>
>In article <2pjc219pbe93ce076qr9vjb35u7fonai1t@4ax.com> playonAT@comcast.net writes:
>
>> There are also things you can do to the banjo itself to change the
>> sound, such as changing head tension, different bridges, etc. If the
>> player is on the inexperienced side, they may not be aware of how
>> these adjustments can affect the sound.
>
>Same with drums, same with guitars (and amps), same with just about
>any instruments. You can regulate a piano differently for different
>kinds of music and for different players. You can use a different reed
>or mouthpiece. You can use a different kind of pick.
>
>The bottom line is that the guy has a banjo player coming over. He's
>not sure what to expect. He should put a mic in front of the banjo and
>record something.

Agreed... banjo would be pretty low on the list of stringed
instruments that are difficult to record.

Al
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"david" <ihate@spamo.com> wrote in message...
>
> 87 in omni. Great mic pre. And don't get too close.


But the only place I have left to put him is in the bathroom....

;-)

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s DOT com



> David Correia
> Celebration Sound
> Warren, Rhode Island
>
> CelebrationSound@aol.com
> www.CelebrationSound.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <C2IVd.74124$uc.33913@trnddc04>, MAMS\
<mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:

> "david" <ihate@spamo.com> wrote in message...
> >
> > 87 in omni. Great mic pre. And don't get too close.
>
>
> But the only place I have left to put him is in the bathroom....
>
> ;-)


In my first building which was a much smaller space than what I have
now, I'd use the bathroom for the guitar amp during basic tracks.
Sounded great, except during a break when it was time for someone to
pee. And flush. Would always slay everyone in the control room when I
slipped the multitrack out of record safe.

It's only a teenage wasteland.





David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island

CelebrationSound@aol.com
www.CelebrationSound.com
 
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