RFC: The Basis for a new Magic System, what do you think? ..

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Request For Comments:
---------------------
This magic system is part of an entire game system that's sort of
been running around in my head for years and I decided to finally start
writing some of it down and see how it looks. It doesn't include any
game mechanics (that will have to wait until I've fleshed out the basic
game mechanics) but does give an idea of the overall flavour and
workings.

I'm interested in any thoughts, ideas and constructive criticisms you
would care to offer. If some parts don¹t make sense please let me know,
it all makes sense to me but I don¹t know how effectively I'm getting
the ideas across.




Introduction
------------
Magic is powered by a form of energy called mana, mana allows effects
that would otherwise violate the physical laws of the universe. Mana on
it's own is inert and doesn't interact with the physical world but some
people (Mages) are able to harness (or channel) mana and cause effects
that are wildly out of proportion to the physical effort expended, for
example knocking down a wall with a wave of a hand. Channelling mana is
physically fatiguing even though the direct physical exertion is minor,
the amount of fatigue is directly proportional to the amount of mana
involved.

Mana is everywhere but the amount available to use varies from place
to place. The amount of mana that can be channelled at any one time
(known as the mana-flow) has been classified into levels with each
successively higher level containing twice as much mana as the previous
level. The majority of the planet is mana-poor having mana-flows of only
one or two. Higher level mana-flows decrease in their abundance
inversely to their power. There are very few small pockets of land with
a mana-flow of seven or above. An area with a high mana-flow is usually
surrounded by areas with successively lower mana levels. There are also
some areas with a mana-flow below a useful level called mana-dead areas.
Mana-flows do not conform to the geographical features of the land, they
extend below ground at least as deep as any mine has ever been dug,
extend up through the atmosphere and into space, and exist in, on and
above the oceans. They are constantly moving but very slowly, several
feet per year on average.

The approximate break down of the amount of land covered by each
mana-flow level is as follows: 0 -15% of the land, 1 - 35%, 2 - 30%,
3 - 17%, 4 - 2.8%, 5 - 0.2%, 6 - 0.05%, 7 - 0.001%, above 7 - 0.0001%.


The Three Types of Magic
------------------------
There are three methods that can be employed by a Mage to harness
mana; talents (sorcery), spells (wizardry) and rituals (witchcraft).
There is no crossover between the three methods, experience and
knowledge in one method doesn't impart any additional skill in another
but being proficient in one doesn't impact learning another.


Talents (Sorcery)
-----------------
Sorcerers are born with the innate ability to control mana but
without the knowledge to do it. A talent must first manifest itself
subconsciously before it can be practised and used consciously. Most
commonly talents are manifested in a situation of extreme importance and
risk, such as a near death situation. For example, a person with the
latent talent Heat is lost in the wilderness and freezing to death but
is unable to get a fire started using mundane techniques saves himself
by subconsciously using his latent talent to start the fire. Now that
this talent has manifested itself he can start to use it consciously. He
will have to practice to learn how to control it but he will also learn
how to harness more power as he practices. Some Sorcerer's talents
manifest during puberty, these talents tend to be more interpersonal in
nature (e.g.: Attract, Repel, Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, etc.)

The specific latent talents a Sorcerer has remain unknown until after
they manifest (if ever). There is no easy method for determining latent
talents, trial and error can be tried but it is very risky. Most
commonly the person has to be in imminent risk of death and if the
talent doesn't manifest death ensues. There are rituals that can be used
to make a talent manifest itself but they also have risks.

There are a few people who have what are known as wild talents. They
have talents that will unconsciously manifest in times of stress but
they are unable to use or control them consciously. Their talents are
often much more powerful than a regular Sorcerer's. For example someone
with a wild talent for Clairaudience (send) who is being threatened
could subconsciously send out a mental scream for help that is heard by
everyone in a thousand mile radius.

Talents are the weakest form of magic but also the most flexible, a
Wizard may be able to create a large ball of fire out of nothing but a
Sorcerer with the talent Heat can use it to prepare dinner, boil water,
light candles, start a house fire, cauterise a wound or boil the
eyeballs out of an enemy's head. As a Sorcerer learns to control his
talents he develops the ability to store mana in his body allowing him
to use his talents in a mana-free area or to use a talent at a level
above what is available in the local mana-flow. After using his internal
stores he can recharge in any area with a mana-flow.

Sorcerers can (using rituals) manufacture staves that store
additional mana that can then be used exactly like their internal stores
as long as they are in direct physical contact with the staff. The staff
can also be made to boost the effectiveness of his talents. A Sorcerer's
staff is personal to the Sorcerer that makes it, to anyone else it's
just a stick. The exceptions to this rule are twins and sometimes
full-blooded siblings. A Sorcerer can own as many staves as he likes and
can use more than one at the same time provided he's in physical contact
with them.


Spells (Wizardry)
-----------------
Wizards are not born with the innate ability to cast spells, they
must learn the incantation and gestures required to cast each spell. Not
everyone can learn how to cast a spell, whether this is because some
people just aren't mentally capable of casting spells or indicates some
innate spell casting ability is unknown. When casting a spell the mana
from the local mana-flow is channelled and formed into the desired
effect by the words of the incantation and the gestures of the caster.

Spells must be learned either from an instructor or from written
instructions and either be used or studied on a regular basis. Casting a
spell requires great precision and if the spell hasn't been cast or
studied recently there is a chance of the spell failing, possibly
spectacularly. This chance increases the longer the time since the spell
was last cast or studied. Most Wizards keep a written record of the
spells they have learned in books, these books are not magical in nature
but can be very valuable due to the knowledge contained on their pages.
New spells can be created with research and experimentation, brand new
spell are much more difficult to create than a variation of a known
spell.

Spells are more powerful than talents but not as powerful as rituals,
a spell can do more with the same amount of mana than a talent can. For
example a Wizard could use a Boil Water spell at first power to boil a
pot of water but a Sorcerer using his Heat talent would need to use it
at forth power to do the same thing. Spells are not as flexible as
talents, each spell has specific effects. For example a Boil Water spell
won't heat soup and a spell to make a fireball can't be used to light a
candle (well it could but it would be like trying to light a candle
using napalm).

Spells vary in complexity, some spells are simple to learn and others
require years of experience, this is known as the spell's order.
First-order spells are the simplest spells to learn and can be taught to
someone with no spell casting experience. Second-order spells are more
complex and required substantial experience with a variety of
first-order spells before they can be properly learned. This continues
for third-order spells, fourth-order spells, etc. All spells have a
specific minimum power level required to cast them, this is not directly
related to the spell's order. All spells can be cast at higher than
minimum power levels (provided there is sufficient local mana-flow).
Increasing the power level will increase various affects of the spell,
the particular affects vary on a spell by spell basis.

Wizards can (using rituals) manufacture wands that aid them in
casting spells by shortening the casting time, lowering the mana
required, simplifying the casting, extending the range, etc. of
specific spells. To be used the Wizard must be in direct physical
contact with the wand. Any Wizard can use any other Wizard's wand
provided they know the specific spells that are enhanced. Wizards can
make and own more than one wand but they can only use one wand at a time
to enhance a spell.


Rituals (Witchcraft)
--------------------
Witches are not born with the innate ability to perform rituals, they
must learn how to prepare the site, which materials are needed and how
they are used and memorise the chants for each specific ritual. Anyone
can learn how to perform a ritual but performing a ritual involves a lot
of steps that must be followed carefully to prepare the site, it
requires materials that may be quiet exotic or otherwise difficult to
acquire and it will take an hour or more to perform. Most people have
difficulty following all the steps to prepare the site and materials
without errors and have trouble maintaining the level of concentration
required to properly perform the ritual itself. When performing a ritual
the mana from the local mana-flow is channelled and formed into the
desired effect by the Witch's chanting and the physical materials used.

The steps for a ritual must be carefully followed in the proper
order, the instructions are generally not straight forward and are
usually written down so they can be referenced at any time. Since
preparing the site and gathering the materials are not time dependent
referencing written instructions is not an issue. The chants used while
performing the ritual can even be written down and referenced as long as
it doesn't interfere with the performance, even a pause to turn a page
will disrupt a ritual. Most Witches keep written instructions of the
rituals they have learned in books or on scrolls, these books or scrolls
are not magical in nature but can be very valuable due to the knowledge
contained on their pages. New rituals can be created with research and
experimentation, brand new rituals are much more difficult to create
than a variation of a known ritual.

Rituals are the most powerful form of magic and the most specific.
Rituals often have to be customised for the specific target and almost
always require the actual target (e.g. the weapon being enchanted), part
of the target (e.g. some blood from the targeted individual) or an
effigy created in accordance with the instructions of the specific
ritual. Rituals vary in difficulty, some rituals are simple to perform
and others require years of experience, this is known as the ritual's
order. First-order rituals are the simplest rituals to perform and can
be performed by someone with no prior experience. Second-order rituals
are more complex and required substantial experience with a variety of
first-order rituals before they can be properly performed. This
continues for third-order rituals, fourth-order rituals, etc.

A ritual requires a specific amount of mana to complete but the local
mana-flow can be below this (but not zero). If the mana-flow is lower
than the ritual requires it will take longer to perform. For example a
ritual that takes one hour to perform in a level four mana-flow, will
take eight hours in a level one mana-flow. If the local mana-flow is
below the level required for the ritual, multiple Witches can perform
the ritual together and shorten the time required. For example a ritual
that would take one Witch an hour to perform in a level four mana-flow,
can be performed in one hour by four Witches in a level two mana-flow.

Witches are able to use rituals to imbue magic into items. Such items
fall into several broad categories; magical assistance, such as a
Wizard's wand or Sorcerer's staff; Potions, which magically affect the
drinker; spell holders, which are able to store a spell's effect and
release it at a later point in time; items that have a specific magical
effect, such as a gem that gives off light or a sword that stays sharp;
and intelligent items, such as a sword that increases the wielder's
fighting ability.

Rituals can be incredibly powerful, they can create a castle out of
nothing, wipe out entire armies, control the weather, open gates to
other planes, etc. Generally the more powerful the ritual the more
complex the site preparations, the more exotic the materials, the more
difficult the chants, the longer it takes to perform, and the higher the
mana-flow it requires. While performing a ritual any break in the
performance will disrupt it, possibly with spectacular results.



Notes, design goals, miscellaneous thoughts and rationalisations
----------------------------------------------------------------
Some of my thoughts here will compare my system to D&D and what I
don't like about it mostly because that's the system I'm most familiar
with. I'm not really ragging on D&D it's great for what it is (I play in
a D&D game every week), but I'm interested in designing a different
style of game.

Mage is a generic term for anyone who harnesses mana, Sorcerer, Witch
and Wizard are titles for people who specialise in one type of magic.
Most Mages specialise in one type of magic but they often gain some
proficiency in the other types. Whether an individual refers to himself
as a Mage, a Wizard, a Sorcerer or a Witch is personal preference. In
the rules I use them to refer to the type of magic being used by the
person at the time, so if I write "A Wizard cast this spell and a
Sorcerer exercised this talent" could refer to the same person.

This magic system is part of an entire game system that's sort of
been running around in my head for years and I decided to finally start
writing some of it down and see how it looks. This is the first part of
the system I've written down, the rest of the system is immaterial at
this time except to say that fatigue is going be an important part of
the system, it will have an important role in magic use, combat and
movement. Magic use does not come with arbitrary limits (e.g. X number
of spells per day) but magic use does cause fatigue which gives it a
self limiting nature.

One of my goals designing this system is to develop a magic system
that makes magic use prevalent but not common, that keeps magic...
magical. It allows for some incredibly powerful magic but doesn't allow
it to become common place. I've never liked D&D's methodology of trying
to arbitrarily limit very powerful magic by making the material
components expensive (in money and/or experience). I want to limit the
use of very powerful magic I just want the limits to make sense in the
milieu and be internally consistent.

I want a system that is low magic most of the time but also has very
powerful magic available. I want to make powerful magic rare by nature
instead of some arbitrary game rule. Mana-flows are one of the concepts
that I developed with this in mind, most of the world is mana-poor.
Mana-poor areas prevent medium and high powered spells from operating,
sorcerers can overcome this to some extent but their powers are less
effective than spells by nature. In general it takes a talent two or
three power levels above a Spell to have similar effects.

To further make powerful magic rare each increase in mana levels
doubles the amount of mana, this means that a forth-powered spell uses
the same amount of mana as eight, first-powered spells. This keeps
sorcerers from walking into a mana-poor area and exercising fifth or
sixth-powered talents when a second-power talent would do the job.
Exercising a sixth-power talent would use thirty two mana-points which
would likely come close to draining him completely.

Rituals of any power level can be performed anywhere except mana-dead
areas, but the lower the mana-flow the longer it will take or the more
witches it needs and the greater the chance of it being interrupted.
Normal folks don't generally understand the the differences or
limitations of magic. They know that a witch created the local castle
out of thin air and think the sorcerer that just walked into the tavern
has the potential for same kind of power. What they don't know is it
took the Witch and three associates four hours to perform the ritual,
they don't know about the eight months the witch spend building the
accurate scale model of the castle or the two months spend preparing the
site. They also don't know that the castle is situated on a level six
mana-flow while the tavern is on a level one mana-flow.

The three types of magic are quiet different in how they operate.
Wizardry is for the people that like big flashy magic, throwing
fireballs around, etc. Sorcery is for those who like more subtle but
flexible magic. A Wizard may know a spell to rain firery death on
someone but a Sorcerer can use his telekinetic power to grab his enemy's
brain and kill him by violently shake it around inside his skull.

I don't want to give the wrong impression of a sorcerer's power with
the above example, using telekinesis to shake someone's brain hard
enough to kill him requires a mid-powered talent provided the sorcerer
is very close (e.g. has his hands on the other guy's head) to do it from
a distance would be require high-power. To kill someone a hundred yards
away in this manner would be at least a sixth-powered or even a
seventh-powered talent.

Witches, I think, aren't going to make popular player characters,
their magic just takes too long to perform to be useful in a party of
adventurers (they could fit very well in a game that isn't a standard
adventuring group though). Witches and witchcraft are important parts of
the milieu though and other mages are going to want to use some
witchcraft, they are at least going to want to make their own staves and
wands.

Spells and Rituals have a difficulty order that is separate from
their power requirements to keep the more powerful spells out of the
reach of the inexperienced. It also gives characters ongoing goals to
strive for. There is also a skill (for lack of a better term) the
characters must develop to be able to harness higher mana-flows. A
beginner can use first-powered magic but would be unable to control
second or higher powered magics. This gives the players something else
to strive for.

I haven't completely thought through the methodology for determining
which latent talents and which talents have already manifested
themselves for a particular sorcerer as a player character, my current
thinking is to detail two or three methods and let the people playing
the game decide which they want to use (or come up with their own). As a
GM my tendency would be to let the player pick two or three talents that
have already manifested and that fit with the character's concept, then
I would pick X number of latent talents and wait for them to manifest
themselves in the game (if ever).

There is a forth type of magic that I could develop, that would be
Priestly (i.e. god-derived) magic, but right now I'm not in favour of
it. There is nothing in the rules stopping a priest from learning magic
the same way as anyone else or a church having a number of unique spells
and rituals they keep to themselves if that's what the GM wants. My
aversion to Priestly magic is based strictly on my desire not to have
Gods playing a role in the milieu, the belief in Gods and religion
definitely but I want to leave the existence of Gods up to debate and
individual belief.

One of my goals is to develop the system so that mages are feared (by
the general populace in the game) more by reputation than by deed. A
highly skilled Mage is unable to use the majority of his abilities in a
mana-poor area and even in a mana-rich area once he's used a few
high-powered magics and he will be left too fatigued to do little more
than stumble away.

Experienced sorcerers and a wizards are greatly aided by their staves
and wands, which makes these items a potential Achilles Heal. Separating
a wizard from his wand or a sorcerer from his staff can greatly reduce
their effectiveness.

I don't have any spell lists yet, I haven't detailed any talents or
written the instructions for any rituals so I know it's hard for others
to grasp the differences between the three types of magic. The first
thing to know is there is no effect one type of magic can produce that
the other types can't duplicate, the differences are in the scale of
what they can do and how they do it. For example take healing. A
Sorcerer can use his Heal talent to heal a badly wounded comrade, the
closer he can get the easier it is so he will prefer to lay his hands on
the other guy's body and and cure two points of damage exercising his
talent effectively at third-power (being in contact with the target of
the spell reduces the required power-level by one so he actually only
exercises his talent at second-power).

A Wizard can use a spell to heal someone but his spells are more
specialised than a Sorcerer's Heal talent. A Wizard could use a Mend
Bones spell at first power to cure two points of broken bone damage and
his spells aren't as affected by distance as talents so he can do it
from across the room. He could use it at third-power to cure eight
points of damage. However he would need to use a different spell to stop
bleeding, repair torn muscles or repair damaged internal organs. A
Witch's ritual is even more specialised but potentially more powerful.
One ritual would be able to clear-up acne, another can completely repair
a broken arm and another can regrow a missing leg. There are rituals to
retard aging, even rituals to raise the dead. A ritual to raising the
dead is an hour long, sixth-power ritual that needs the body and
possibly other items depending on the specific ritual (e.g. one version
needs the specific weapon that killed him), and it would need extensive
site preparation. Different raise dead rituals exist and the one
required depends on different factors such as how the person died.

One rule that is arbitrary but important is that magic can't reduce
fatigue, fatigue is one of the main methods used to control magic use
and allowing magic to get around it defeats its purpose.
 
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Out from under a rock popped Gordon Mulcaster and said
[snip]
> One of my goals designing this system is to develop a magic system
> that makes magic use prevalent but not common, that keeps magic...
> magical. It allows for some incredibly powerful magic but doesn't allow
> it to become common place. I've never liked D&D's methodology of trying
> to arbitrarily limit very powerful magic by making the material
> components expensive (in money and/or experience). I want to limit the
> use of very powerful magic I just want the limits to make sense in the
> milieu and be internally consistent.
[snip]

It reads like rewritten Ars Magica without the really useful mechanisms.
--
rob singers
pull finger to reply
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
 
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In article <Xns95AC881626E72rsingers@IP-Hidden>,
Robert Singers <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote:

> It reads like rewritten Ars Magica without the really useful mechanisms.

I've never read the rules for or played Ars Magica, so I did a look
around on the web for it and read a bit of stuff and it appears that
Ars' magic system is considered to be (at least) very good -- so I'll
take that (mostly) as a compliment. Thank you.

Is it possible to explain what you mean by its "really useful
mechanisms"?
 
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On 11/24/04 7:50 PM, in article
usenetter-47633A.19505724112004@news.telus.net, "Gordon Mulcaster"
<usenetter@telus.net> wrote:

> In article <Xns95AC881626E72rsingers@IP-Hidden>,
> Robert Singers <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It reads like rewritten Ars Magica without the really useful mechanisms.
>
> I've never read the rules for or played Ars Magica, so I did a look
> around on the web for it and read a bit of stuff and it appears that
> Ars' magic system is considered to be (at least) very good -- so I'll
> take that (mostly) as a compliment. Thank you.
>
> Is it possible to explain what you mean by its "really useful
> mechanisms"?

Ars Magica has (IMHO) the best of all magic systems. Although it is now in
its 5th edition (as of last Thursday), the magic system has not
fundamentally changed since 4th, which is available for free at:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=774&src=FreeArsMagica

You need to register with RPGnow, but for an entire, playable gamebook it's
not a bad deal...

helen steele
helen@guernicus.com
 
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Out from under a rock popped Gordon Mulcaster and said

> In article <Xns95AC881626E72rsingers@IP-Hidden>,
> Robert Singers <rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It reads like rewritten Ars Magica without the really useful mechanisms.
>
> I've never read the rules for or played Ars Magica, so I did a look
> around on the web for it and read a bit of stuff and it appears that
> Ars' magic system is considered to be (at least) very good -- so I'll
> take that (mostly) as a compliment. Thank you.

Don't get too excited. I don't think you've done anything that improves on
ArM.

> Is it possible to explain what you mean by its "really useful
> mechanisms"?

Fourth Edition is a free download. You should download it and give it a
read.

--
rob singers
pull finger to reply
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
 
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Regarding the 3 main types of magic. You call them Talents,
Rituals and Spells

I would change that. Talents stays, more or less, the same.
Rituals and Spells seem to overlap a lot. In "real magic"
there's really no difference between a spell and a ritual. A
spell is just the verbal part of a ritual. So I would change it
to Rituals and Spirits.

Wizards get to do mainly Rituals (which works for them more or
less as you described spells)

Witches get to do mainly Spirits (which works via a
spirit/demon/elemental ally, companion or familiar. So the
Spirit form of magic is mainly dependent on an 'ally'.

Witches also have some rituals available and the more risque
Wizards have been known to make pacts with demons or to gain
familiars, thereby allowing themselves to cast magic from the
Spirit realm.

You need to specify the dangers and advantages of these distinct
forms. e.g. disadvantages of Spirit magic, such as, (a) the
spirit ally takes over the body of the mage; (b) the ally is not
always at hand to be invoked, so sometimes the mage is without
any power at all; (c) a contract between ally and Witch/mage is
needed - need I say more?; etc.

Disadvantages of the Talents realm? - limited range of powers
such as mainly psychic or illusion type magic.

Disadvantage of Spell/Rituals. Mage has to learn each
Spell/Ritural from someone who will always demand an expensive
service beforehand, e.g. (a) a quest; (b) an oaf of allegiance
for a particular period; (c) the Spell/Ritual can go wrong if
cast too hastily or with a mispronunciation in the incantation
or the wrong kind of material component...

NEVER LET YOUR MAGES BE CERTAIN ABOUT THE
RESULT OF MAGIC

There should always be a chance of failure when casting a spell
- even if that's only 1%. If you make the result of magic too
predictable then it is no longer MAGIC and you no longer have a
fantasy game - just hack & slash using spells instead of swords.

PS: If the mage is currently learning Latin or Hebrew - it could
be for a good reason - so that s/he'll know the meaning of the
spell incantations and won't be at such a risk of making a
mispronunciation as one may be prone to when simply incanting
meaningless drivel. (A spell mispronunciation in Jack Vance's
Dying Earth series often results in a completely new focus for
the story (aka adventure when translated into RPG terms).

GURPs have a books called Spirits describing a magic system but
other inspiration for those ideas comes from popular myth,
fiction, actual reports of "real" magic, etc.



On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 23:10:40 GMT, Gordon Mulcaster
<usenetter@telus.net> wrote:

>Request For Comments:
>---------------------
> This magic system is part of an entire game system that's sort of
>been running around in my head for years and I decided to finally start
>writing some of it down and see how it looks. It doesn't include any
>game mechanics (that will have to wait until I've fleshed out the basic
>game mechanics) but does give an idea of the overall flavour and
>workings.
>
> I'm interested in any thoughts, ideas and constructive criticisms you
>would care to offer. If some parts don¹t make sense please let me know,
>it all makes sense to me but I don¹t know how effectively I'm getting
>the ideas across.
>
>
>
>
>Introduction
>------------
> Magic is powered by a form of energy called mana, mana allows effects
>that would otherwise violate the physical laws of the universe. Mana on
>it's own is inert and doesn't interact with the physical world but some
>people (Mages) are able to harness (or channel) mana and cause effects
>that are wildly out of proportion to the physical effort expended, for
>example knocking down a wall with a wave of a hand. Channelling mana is
>physically fatiguing even though the direct physical exertion is minor,
>the amount of fatigue is directly proportional to the amount of mana
>involved.
>
> Mana is everywhere but the amount available to use varies from place
>to place. The amount of mana that can be channelled at any one time
>(known as the mana-flow) has been classified into levels with each
>successively higher level containing twice as much mana as the previous
>level. The majority of the planet is mana-poor having mana-flows of only
>one or two. Higher level mana-flows decrease in their abundance
>inversely to their power. There are very few small pockets of land with
>a mana-flow of seven or above. An area with a high mana-flow is usually
>surrounded by areas with successively lower mana levels. There are also
>some areas with a mana-flow below a useful level called mana-dead areas.
>Mana-flows do not conform to the geographical features of the land, they
>extend below ground at least as deep as any mine has ever been dug,
>extend up through the atmosphere and into space, and exist in, on and
>above the oceans. They are constantly moving but very slowly, several
>feet per year on average.
>
> The approximate break down of the amount of land covered by each
>mana-flow level is as follows: 0 -15% of the land, 1 - 35%, 2 - 30%,
>3 - 17%, 4 - 2.8%, 5 - 0.2%, 6 - 0.05%, 7 - 0.001%, above 7 - 0.0001%.
>
>
>The Three Types of Magic
>------------------------
> There are three methods that can be employed by a Mage to harness
>mana; talents (sorcery), spells (wizardry) and rituals (witchcraft).
>There is no crossover between the three methods, experience and
>knowledge in one method doesn't impart any additional skill in another
>but being proficient in one doesn't impact learning another.
>
>
>Talents (Sorcery)
>-----------------
> Sorcerers are born with the innate ability to control mana but
>without the knowledge to do it. A talent must first manifest itself
>subconsciously before it can be practised and used consciously. Most
>commonly talents are manifested in a situation of extreme importance and
>risk, such as a near death situation. For example, a person with the
>latent talent Heat is lost in the wilderness and freezing to death but
>is unable to get a fire started using mundane techniques saves himself
>by subconsciously using his latent talent to start the fire. Now that
>this talent has manifested itself he can start to use it consciously. He
>will have to practice to learn how to control it but he will also learn
>how to harness more power as he practices. Some Sorcerer's talents
>manifest during puberty, these talents tend to be more interpersonal in
>nature (e.g.: Attract, Repel, Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, etc.)
>
> The specific latent talents a Sorcerer has remain unknown until after
>they manifest (if ever). There is no easy method for determining latent
>talents, trial and error can be tried but it is very risky. Most
>commonly the person has to be in imminent risk of death and if the
>talent doesn't manifest death ensues. There are rituals that can be used
>to make a talent manifest itself but they also have risks.
>
> There are a few people who have what are known as wild talents. They
>have talents that will unconsciously manifest in times of stress but
>they are unable to use or control them consciously. Their talents are
>often much more powerful than a regular Sorcerer's. For example someone
>with a wild talent for Clairaudience (send) who is being threatened
>could subconsciously send out a mental scream for help that is heard by
>everyone in a thousand mile radius.
>
> Talents are the weakest form of magic but also the most flexible, a
>Wizard may be able to create a large ball of fire out of nothing but a
>Sorcerer with the talent Heat can use it to prepare dinner, boil water,
>light candles, start a house fire, cauterise a wound or boil the
>eyeballs out of an enemy's head. As a Sorcerer learns to control his
>talents he develops the ability to store mana in his body allowing him
>to use his talents in a mana-free area or to use a talent at a level
>above what is available in the local mana-flow. After using his internal
>stores he can recharge in any area with a mana-flow.
>
> Sorcerers can (using rituals) manufacture staves that store
>additional mana that can then be used exactly like their internal stores
>as long as they are in direct physical contact with the staff. The staff
>can also be made to boost the effectiveness of his talents. A Sorcerer's
>staff is personal to the Sorcerer that makes it, to anyone else it's
>just a stick. The exceptions to this rule are twins and sometimes
>full-blooded siblings. A Sorcerer can own as many staves as he likes and
>can use more than one at the same time provided he's in physical contact
>with them.
>
>
>Spells (Wizardry)
>-----------------
> Wizards are not born with the innate ability to cast spells, they
>must learn the incantation and gestures required to cast each spell. Not
>everyone can learn how to cast a spell, whether this is because some
>people just aren't mentally capable of casting spells or indicates some
>innate spell casting ability is unknown. When casting a spell the mana
>from the local mana-flow is channelled and formed into the desired
>effect by the words of the incantation and the gestures of the caster.
>
> Spells must be learned either from an instructor or from written
>instructions and either be used or studied on a regular basis. Casting a
>spell requires great precision and if the spell hasn't been cast or
>studied recently there is a chance of the spell failing, possibly
>spectacularly. This chance increases the longer the time since the spell
>was last cast or studied. Most Wizards keep a written record of the
>spells they have learned in books, these books are not magical in nature
>but can be very valuable due to the knowledge contained on their pages.
>New spells can be created with research and experimentation, brand new
>spell are much more difficult to create than a variation of a known
>spell.
>
> Spells are more powerful than talents but not as powerful as rituals,
>a spell can do more with the same amount of mana than a talent can. For
>example a Wizard could use a Boil Water spell at first power to boil a
>pot of water but a Sorcerer using his Heat talent would need to use it
>at forth power to do the same thing. Spells are not as flexible as
>talents, each spell has specific effects. For example a Boil Water spell
>won't heat soup and a spell to make a fireball can't be used to light a
>candle (well it could but it would be like trying to light a candle
>using napalm).
>
> Spells vary in complexity, some spells are simple to learn and others
>require years of experience, this is known as the spell's order.
>First-order spells are the simplest spells to learn and can be taught to
>someone with no spell casting experience. Second-order spells are more
>complex and required substantial experience with a variety of
>first-order spells before they can be properly learned. This continues
>for third-order spells, fourth-order spells, etc. All spells have a
>specific minimum power level required to cast them, this is not directly
>related to the spell's order. All spells can be cast at higher than
>minimum power levels (provided there is sufficient local mana-flow).
>Increasing the power level will increase various affects of the spell,
>the particular affects vary on a spell by spell basis.
>
> Wizards can (using rituals) manufacture wands that aid them in
>casting spells by shortening the casting time, lowering the mana
>required, simplifying the casting, extending the range, etc. of
>specific spells. To be used the Wizard must be in direct physical
>contact with the wand. Any Wizard can use any other Wizard's wand
>provided they know the specific spells that are enhanced. Wizards can
>make and own more than one wand but they can only use one wand at a time
>to enhance a spell.
>
>
>Rituals (Witchcraft)
>--------------------
> Witches are not born with the innate ability to perform rituals, they
>must learn how to prepare the site, which materials are needed and how
>they are used and memorise the chants for each specific ritual. Anyone
>can learn how to perform a ritual but performing a ritual involves a lot
>of steps that must be followed carefully to prepare the site, it
>requires materials that may be quiet exotic or otherwise difficult to
>acquire and it will take an hour or more to perform. Most people have
>difficulty following all the steps to prepare the site and materials
>without errors and have trouble maintaining the level of concentration
>required to properly perform the ritual itself. When performing a ritual
>the mana from the local mana-flow is channelled and formed into the
>desired effect by the Witch's chanting and the physical materials used.
>
> The steps for a ritual must be carefully followed in the proper
>order, the instructions are generally not straight forward and are
>usually written down so they can be referenced at any time. Since
>preparing the site and gathering the materials are not time dependent
>referencing written instructions is not an issue. The chants used while
>performing the ritual can even be written down and referenced as long as
>it doesn't interfere with the performance, even a pause to turn a page
>will disrupt a ritual. Most Witches keep written instructions of the
>rituals they have learned in books or on scrolls, these books or scrolls
>are not magical in nature but can be very valuable due to the knowledge
>contained on their pages. New rituals can be created with research and
>experimentation, brand new rituals are much more difficult to create
>than a variation of a known ritual.
>
> Rituals are the most powerful form of magic and the most specific.
>Rituals often have to be customised for the specific target and almost
>always require the actual target (e.g. the weapon being enchanted), part
>of the target (e.g. some blood from the targeted individual) or an
>effigy created in accordance with the instructions of the specific
>ritual. Rituals vary in difficulty, some rituals are simple to perform
>and others require years of experience, this is known as the ritual's
>order. First-order rituals are the simplest rituals to perform and can
>be performed by someone with no prior experience. Second-order rituals
>are more complex and required substantial experience with a variety of
>first-order rituals before they can be properly performed. This
>continues for third-order rituals, fourth-order rituals, etc.
>
> A ritual requires a specific amount of mana to complete but the local
>mana-flow can be below this (but not zero). If the mana-flow is lower
>than the ritual requires it will take longer to perform. For example a
>ritual that takes one hour to perform in a level four mana-flow, will
>take eight hours in a level one mana-flow. If the local mana-flow is
>below the level required for the ritual, multiple Witches can perform
>the ritual together and shorten the time required. For example a ritual
>that would take one Witch an hour to perform in a level four mana-flow,
>can be performed in one hour by four Witches in a level two mana-flow.
>
> Witches are able to use rituals to imbue magic into items. Such items
>fall into several broad categories; magical assistance, such as a
>Wizard's wand or Sorcerer's staff; Potions, which magically affect the
>drinker; spell holders, which are able to store a spell's effect and
>release it at a later point in time; items that have a specific magical
>effect, such as a gem that gives off light or a sword that stays sharp;
>and intelligent items, such as a sword that increases the wielder's
>fighting ability.
>
> Rituals can be incredibly powerful, they can create a castle out of
>nothing, wipe out entire armies, control the weather, open gates to
>other planes, etc. Generally the more powerful the ritual the more
>complex the site preparations, the more exotic the materials, the more
>difficult the chants, the longer it takes to perform, and the higher the
>mana-flow it requires. While performing a ritual any break in the
>performance will disrupt it, possibly with spectacular results.
>
>
>
>Notes, design goals, miscellaneous thoughts and rationalisations
>----------------------------------------------------------------
> Some of my thoughts here will compare my system to D&D and what I
>don't like about it mostly because that's the system I'm most familiar
>with. I'm not really ragging on D&D it's great for what it is (I play in
>a D&D game every week), but I'm interested in designing a different
>style of game.
>
> Mage is a generic term for anyone who harnesses mana, Sorcerer, Witch
>and Wizard are titles for people who specialise in one type of magic.
>Most Mages specialise in one type of magic but they often gain some
>proficiency in the other types. Whether an individual refers to himself
>as a Mage, a Wizard, a Sorcerer or a Witch is personal preference. In
>the rules I use them to refer to the type of magic being used by the
>person at the time, so if I write "A Wizard cast this spell and a
>Sorcerer exercised this talent" could refer to the same person.
>
> This magic system is part of an entire game system that's sort of
>been running around in my head for years and I decided to finally start
>writing some of it down and see how it looks. This is the first part of
>the system I've written down, the rest of the system is immaterial at
>this time except to say that fatigue is going be an important part of
>the system, it will have an important role in magic use, combat and
>movement. Magic use does not come with arbitrary limits (e.g. X number
>of spells per day) but magic use does cause fatigue which gives it a
>self limiting nature.
>
> One of my goals designing this system is to develop a magic system
>that makes magic use prevalent but not common, that keeps magic...
>magical. It allows for some incredibly powerful magic but doesn't allow
>it to become common place. I've never liked D&D's methodology of trying
>to arbitrarily limit very powerful magic by making the material
>components expensive (in money and/or experience). I want to limit the
>use of very powerful magic I just want the limits to make sense in the
>milieu and be internally consistent.
>
> I want a system that is low magic most of the time but also has very
>powerful magic available. I want to make powerful magic rare by nature
>instead of some arbitrary game rule. Mana-flows are one of the concepts
>that I developed with this in mind, most of the world is mana-poor.
>Mana-poor areas prevent medium and high powered spells from operating,
>sorcerers can overcome this to some extent but their powers are less
>effective than spells by nature. In general it takes a talent two or
>three power levels above a Spell to have similar effects.
>
> To further make powerful magic rare each increase in mana levels
>doubles the amount of mana, this means that a forth-powered spell uses
>the same amount of mana as eight, first-powered spells. This keeps
>sorcerers from walking into a mana-poor area and exercising fifth or
>sixth-powered talents when a second-power talent would do the job.
>Exercising a sixth-power talent would use thirty two mana-points which
>would likely come close to draining him completely.
>
> Rituals of any power level can be performed anywhere except mana-dead
>areas, but the lower the mana-flow the longer it will take or the more
>witches it needs and the greater the chance of it being interrupted.
>Normal folks don't generally understand the the differences or
>limitations of magic. They know that a witch created the local castle
>out of thin air and think the sorcerer that just walked into the tavern
>has the potential for same kind of power. What they don't know is it
>took the Witch and three associates four hours to perform the ritual,
>they don't know about the eight months the witch spend building the
>accurate scale model of the castle or the two months spend preparing the
>site. They also don't know that the castle is situated on a level six
>mana-flow while the tavern is on a level one mana-flow.
>
> The three types of magic are quiet different in how they operate.
>Wizardry is for the people that like big flashy magic, throwing
>fireballs around, etc. Sorcery is for those who like more subtle but
>flexible magic. A Wizard may know a spell to rain firery death on
>someone but a Sorcerer can use his telekinetic power to grab his enemy's
>brain and kill him by violently shake it around inside his skull.
>
> I don't want to give the wrong impression of a sorcerer's power with
>the above example, using telekinesis to shake someone's brain hard
>enough to kill him requires a mid-powered talent provided the sorcerer
>is very close (e.g. has his hands on the other guy's head) to do it from
>a distance would be require high-power. To kill someone a hundred yards
>away in this manner would be at least a sixth-powered or even a
>seventh-powered talent.
>
> Witches, I think, aren't going to make popular player characters,
>their magic just takes too long to perform to be useful in a party of
>adventurers (they could fit very well in a game that isn't a standard
>adventuring group though). Witches and witchcraft are important parts of
>the milieu though and other mages are going to want to use some
>witchcraft, they are at least going to want to make their own staves and
>wands.
>
> Spells and Rituals have a difficulty order that is separate from
>their power requirements to keep the more powerful spells out of the
>reach of the inexperienced. It also gives characters ongoing goals to
>strive for. There is also a skill (for lack of a better term) the
>characters must develop to be able to harness higher mana-flows. A
>beginner can use first-powered magic but would be unable to control
>second or higher powered magics. This gives the players something else
>to strive for.
>
> I haven't completely thought through the methodology for determining
>which latent talents and which talents have already manifested
>themselves for a particular sorcerer as a player character, my current
>thinking is to detail two or three methods and let the people playing
>the game decide which they want to use (or come up with their own). As a
>GM my tendency would be to let the player pick two or three talents that
>have already manifested and that fit with the character's concept, then
>I would pick X number of latent talents and wait for them to manifest
>themselves in the game (if ever).
>
> There is a forth type of magic that I could develop, that would be
>Priestly (i.e. god-derived) magic, but right now I'm not in favour of
>it. There is nothing in the rules stopping a priest from learning magic
>the same way as anyone else or a church having a number of unique spells
>and rituals they keep to themselves if that's what the GM wants. My
>aversion to Priestly magic is based strictly on my desire not to have
>Gods playing a role in the milieu, the belief in Gods and religion
>definitely but I want to leave the existence of Gods up to debate and
>individual belief.
>
> One of my goals is to develop the system so that mages are feared (by
>the general populace in the game) more by reputation than by deed. A
>highly skilled Mage is unable to use the majority of his abilities in a
>mana-poor area and even in a mana-rich area once he's used a few
>high-powered magics and he will be left too fatigued to do little more
>than stumble away.
>
> Experienced sorcerers and a wizards are greatly aided by their staves
>and wands, which makes these items a potential Achilles Heal. Separating
>a wizard from his wand or a sorcerer from his staff can greatly reduce
>their effectiveness.
>
> I don't have any spell lists yet, I haven't detailed any talents or
>written the instructions for any rituals so I know it's hard for others
>to grasp the differences between the three types of magic. The first
>thing to know is there is no effect one type of magic can produce that
>the other types can't duplicate, the differences are in the scale of
>what they can do and how they do it. For example take healing. A
>Sorcerer can use his Heal talent to heal a badly wounded comrade, the
>closer he can get the easier it is so he will prefer to lay his hands on
>the other guy's body and and cure two points of damage exercising his
>talent effectively at third-power (being in contact with the target of
>the spell reduces the required power-level by one so he actually only
>exercises his talent at second-power).
>
> A Wizard can use a spell to heal someone but his spells are more
>specialised than a Sorcerer's Heal talent. A Wizard could use a Mend
>Bones spell at first power to cure two points of broken bone damage and
>his spells aren't as affected by distance as talents so he can do it
>from across the room. He could use it at third-power to cure eight
>points of damage. However he would need to use a different spell to stop
>bleeding, repair torn muscles or repair damaged internal organs. A
>Witch's ritual is even more specialised but potentially more powerful.
>One ritual would be able to clear-up acne, another can completely repair
>a broken arm and another can regrow a missing leg. There are rituals to
>retard aging, even rituals to raise the dead. A ritual to raising the
>dead is an hour long, sixth-power ritual that needs the body and
>possibly other items depending on the specific ritual (e.g. one version
>needs the specific weapon that killed him), and it would need extensive
>site preparation. Different raise dead rituals exist and the one
>required depends on different factors such as how the person died.
>
> One rule that is arbitrary but important is that magic can't reduce
>fatigue, fatigue is one of the main methods used to control magic use
>and allowing magic to get around it defeats its purpose.
 
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Gordon Mulcaster wrote:

> Some interesting stuff

In short, please don't take this personal:
Looks like Carella's Witchcraft to me, especially the channeling part. Why
do you always try to reinvent the wheel?

--
To get my real email adress, remove the two onkas
--
Hendrik Belitz
- Abort, Retry, Fthagn? -
 
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In article <BDCAA0D5.45C50%helen@guernicus.com>,
Helen Steele <helen@guernicus.com> wrote:

> Ars Magica has (IMHO) the best of all magic systems. Although it is now in
> its 5th edition (as of last Thursday), the magic system has not
> fundamentally changed since 4th, which is available for free at:
>
> http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=774&src=FreeArsMagica
>
> You need to register with RPGnow, but for an entire, playable gamebook it's
> not a bad deal...

I found and downloaded it yesterday, I will take a look at it later.
 
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In article <fnabq01879mc6br0j79qm571kcsf3hnglm@4ax.com>,
shoggoth <shoggoth@ryleh.con> wrote:

> Regarding the 3 main types of magic. You call them Talents,
> Rituals and Spells
>
> I would change that. Talents stays, more or less, the same.
> Rituals and Spells seem to overlap a lot. In "real magic"
> there's really no difference between a spell and a ritual. A
> spell is just the verbal part of a ritual. So I would change it
> to Rituals and Spirits.

Spells and rituals are somewhat similar but there are also a lot of
differences. For that matter Sorcery and Wizardry are somewhat similar
as well. For example they both use mana, they both cause fatigue and a
Sorcerer's staff is similar to a Wizard's wand. In many ways it's all
fairly similar because it's all magic. I've attempted to differentiate
the three types of magic not only in game terms but in style so a person
playing a Wizard would play him differently than a Sorcerer or Witch. In
fact I don't think a witch would make a very good player character in a
group of adventurers but will make for very interesting NPCs either as
an ally or an enemy.

A spell can be cast at any time and any where there is a sufficiently
powerful mana-flow, casting involves reciting an incantation (which is
usually a long complex word or short phrase) while performing specific
gestures. If either is not done perfectly the spell fails, possibly with
unwanted consequences. In game terms the character will have to make a
concentration check (for lack of a better term) depending on his current
stress level which is modified by his current fatigue level. Spells
usually take a few seconds to cast with higher order spells taking
longer, but even spells of the highest order take far less than a minute.

Rituals can only be performed in an area that has been prepared (for
example part of the preparation would be the painting of a witches
circle on the ground), they need (to use a D&D term) material
components, they can also have strictures such as only being performed
during a full moon. Once everything is setup the witch (or witches)
begin chanting, how long the chanting continues varies by ritual and by
the level of mama-flow in the area but the shortest rituals take ten or
more minutes. In game terms the character(s) will have to make
concentration checks, the number of checks required would be determined
by how long the ritual takes. Any interruption in the chant will cause
the ritual to fail so if something happens that could distract the witch
(for example someone entering the room) they must make another check.
These concentration checks are modified by the witch's current fatigue
level.

Sorcerers exercise their talents simply by willing their effects. There
is nothing physical the Sorcerer has to do but most Sorcerers have a
tell, they do some specific physical action, for example a Sorcerer may
furrow his eyebrows or make a fist. This tell isn't technically
necessary but it's habit.

> Wizards get to do mainly Rituals (which works for them more or
> less as you described spells)

I don't know if you intended this but your statement seems to imply that
Wizard is a class (to use a D&D term). It's not, Wizard is a title, like
accountant or engineer. Wizardry is the casting of spells, witchcraft is
the performing of rituals, sorcery is the exercising of talents. There
is nothing stopping a Wizard or Sorcerer from learning some witchcraft
(i.e. learning rituals) and nothing stopping a Witch or Sorcerer from
learning some wizardry (i.e. learning some spells). There is also no
reason why a Wizard or Witch would not be able to exercise any talent
that they have manifested.

> Witches get to do mainly Spirits (which works via a
> spirit/demon/elemental ally, companion or familiar. So the
> Spirit form of magic is mainly dependent on an 'ally'.

Hmmm, spirit magic, a possible fifth type of magic. There is some
interesting ideas there I will have to think about that...

> You need to specify the dangers and advantages of these distinct
> forms.

They will be but that will wait until the game mechanics are being
codified.

> Disadvantages of the Talents realm? - limited range of powers
> such as mainly psychic or illusion type magic.

Sorcery is potentially the most useful form of magic, it can be used in
mana-dead areas, it can be used at a power level far above the level of
the local mana-flow, talents are general in nature so their usefulness
relies on the imagination of the sorcerer. For example a Sorcerer who
has a Telekinetic talent can use his talent to fetch things without
getting up, pick pockets, interfere with Wizards casting spells (say by
poking him in the eye at the right moment) and, to cite the example I
gave previously, kill a person by shaking his brain around inside his
skull.

It's main disadvantage is you can't pick your talents, telekinesis may
be very useful but if you don't have it you don't have it. It's also the
weakest form of magic, a Sorcerer could kill a guy by shaking his brain
but the talent would have to be exercised at sixth power, a wizard can
kill someone with the right second or third powered spell.

> Disadvantage of Spell/Rituals. Mage has to learn each
> Spell/Ritural from someone who will always demand an expensive
> service beforehand, e.g. (a) a quest; (b) an oaf of allegiance
> for a particular period; (c) the Spell/Ritual can go wrong if
> cast too hastily or with a mispronunciation in the incantation
> or the wrong kind of material component...

Wizardry is the general purpose form of magic. The main disadvantages
are that spells need to be directly powered by mana-flows, they are
useless in mana-dead areas, the more powerful spells can't be cast in
mana-poor areas and specific spells are required for specific effects
and must be acquired.

Witchcraft's main disadvantages are the amount of preparation required
before performing a ritual, the length of time the ritual takes and
specific rituals are required for specific effects and must be acquired.
 
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In article <30lp4eF3177i0U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Hendrik Belitz <honkaonka.belitz@fz-juelich.de> wrote:

> Gordon Mulcaster wrote:
>
> > Some interesting stuff
>
> In short, please don't take this personal:
> Looks like Carella's Witchcraft to me, especially the channeling part. Why
> do you always try to reinvent the wheel?

First I've never heard of Carella's Witchcraft so if it's similar it's
coincidence. The fact that my system is similar in some respects to
other systems isn't surprising, I've tried to base the underlying
concepts on ideas from a number of different sources (books, stories,
fairy tails, etc.). I've tried to sort of boil down the commonalities of
them all then build up the system to have the feel that I want. I want
the system to support very powerful magic but keep it rare, in the game
I want magic to be mystical and most importantly I want the system to be
internally consistent, reasonable and believable.
 
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In article <usenetter-F62508.13180125112004@news.telus.net>,
Gordon Mulcaster <usenetter@telus.net> wrote:

> In article <30lp4eF3177i0U1@uni-berlin.de>,
> Hendrik Belitz <honkaonka.belitz@fz-juelich.de> wrote:
>
> > Gordon Mulcaster wrote:
> >
> > > Some interesting stuff
> >
> > In short, please don't take this personal:
> > Looks like Carella's Witchcraft to me, especially the channeling part. Why
> > do you always try to reinvent the wheel?
>
> First I've never heard of Carella's Witchcraft so if it's similar it's
> coincidence. The fact that my system is similar in some respects to
> other systems isn't surprising, I've tried to base the underlying
> concepts on ideas from a number of different sources (books, stories,
> fairy tails, etc.). I've tried to sort of boil down the commonalities of
> them all then build up the system to have the feel that I want. I want
> the system to support very powerful magic but keep it rare, in the game
> I want magic to be mystical and most importantly I want the system to be
> internally consistent, reasonable and believable.

P.S. I try to reinvent the wheel because it's fun. There is also the off
chance that I will invent a better wheel.
 
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Gordon Mulcaster wrote:

> P.S. I try to reinvent the wheel because it's fun. There is also the off
> chance that I will invent a better wheel.

I really understand this ;). I had a similar "problem" several years ago
after I read Ars magica for the first time and had to recognize that I had
created something very similar by myself without even knowing the
original :).

So if you really want to design a magic system, good luck to you. At the
time you've created some playable rules, I would be glad to hear from you
again.

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- Abort, Retry, Fthagn? -
 
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In article <30o6nbF30ta0qU3@uni-berlin.de>,
Hendrik Belitz <honkaonka.belitz@fz-juelich.de> wrote:

> So if you really want to design a magic system, good luck to you. At the
> time you've created some playable rules, I would be glad to hear from you
> again.

I'll post as I get more completed, I'll have to come up with a name for
it at some point, is JAGS (Just Another Gaming System) taken?

I'm playing around with the combat system at the moment, I've created
the bare minimum stats for two guys with baseball bats and shoved them
into a spreadsheet and I'm making them beat each other up.

After initive rolls, the attacker rolls three die scores (2d20 take the
lowest, d10, 2d6 take the lowest), then there are three numbers that get
added to them. The defender rolls one die scroe (2d20 take the lowest)
and there is one number that gets added to it. A few compares later and
I've determined whether it's a hit, whether the hit was blocked, whether
it was a headshot, the bludgening damage, the internal damage, whether
it caused bleeding (interal bleeding for baseball bats) or a concusion.

Enough bludgening damagae and you will pass out, enough blood loss,
internal damage or head trama and you die. I think it sounds more
complex than it is to play, but it is going to require a well designed
character sheet.
 
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On 25 Nov 2004 00:22:39 GMT, Robert Singers
<rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Out from under a rock popped Gordon Mulcaster and said
> [snip]
> > One of my goals designing this system is to develop a magic system
> > that makes magic use prevalent but not common, that keeps magic...
> > magical. It allows for some incredibly powerful magic but doesn't allow
> > it to become common place. I've never liked D&D's methodology of trying
> > to arbitrarily limit very powerful magic by making the material
> > components expensive (in money and/or experience). I want to limit the
> > use of very powerful magic I just want the limits to make sense in the
> > milieu and be internally consistent.
> [snip]
>
> It reads like rewritten Ars Magica without the really useful mechanisms.

I thought it sounded like GURPS, but without the rules structure in
place yet. Or like a cleaned up version of Chivalry & Sorcery 1e/2e's
system.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
 
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 09:10:14 +0100, Hendrik Belitz
<honkaonka.belitz@fz-juelich.de> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Gordon Mulcaster wrote:
>
> > P.S. I try to reinvent the wheel because it's fun. There is also the off
> > chance that I will invent a better wheel.
>
> I really understand this ;). I had a similar "problem" several years ago
> after I read Ars magica for the first time and had to recognize that I had
> created something very similar by myself without even knowing the
> original :).

IMO Ars Magica itself is simply a reinvention of C&S's magic, though
it does freeform explictly, which C&S did not. It's also essentially a
fuzzier version of Torg/Masterbook's system.

When it comes to this sort of thing there's not much new under the
sun, but it's still worth playing because you might find a better way
of doing something.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."
 
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Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> IMO Ars Magica itself is simply a reinvention of C&S's magic, though
> it does freeform explictly, which C&S did not. It's also essentially a
> fuzzier version of Torg/Masterbook's system.

The latter part would be difficult, since Ars Magica is older than Torg...

Also, in the case of Torg, there's the question of "which magic system?"
The one in Aysle is the one I'd assume you're thinking of, but there's also
the one from Orrorsh, which I find to be the most interesting of Torg's
systems...

And speaking of magic systems, the original post for this thread doesn't
seem to have ever shown up on my server; just responses to it. I guess
I'll have to go dig in Google and find it...

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/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
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On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 13:00:13 GMT, Travis Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> > IMO Ars Magica itself is simply a reinvention of C&S's magic, though
> > it does freeform explictly, which C&S did not. It's also essentially a
> > fuzzier version of Torg/Masterbook's system.
>
> The latter part would be difficult, since Ars Magica is older than Torg...

I couldn't remember which was the older.

> Also, in the case of Torg, there's the question of "which magic system?"
> The one in Aysle is the one I'd assume you're thinking of, but there's also
> the one from Orrorsh, which I find to be the most interesting of Torg's
> systems...

I meant the Aysle one, yes. I liked it, though it was easily breakable
by possibility rated characters (the obvious fix being to not let
people use possibilities when designing spells).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."