System Builder Marathon: Day Two

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Perfecto. I would like to see a processor upgrade too, but it sounds like you have a methodology going on there and besides that was already covered in the recent article "Which Is the Best Mainstream CPU?"

I hope to see an opteron in the High end slot since it is the undisputed processing champion at this time, although that would really get you into workstation teritory instead of the desktop.
 
I would like to ask the question, if this is a mid range system why is it using the 2nd best video card processor out there 8800GTS. (Based on the VAG chart Overall all games fps)???? If it was mid range wouldn't it be using a X1950pro/X1900XT or 7900GT/7950GT???? :? :? 8)
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Because top range is 2x 8800GTX SLI
 
I think you guys did well. Even what phrozt said about ppl "wanting" that midrange but not affording it is right.

Honestly, I think ppl that are complaining about the 8800 being in "midrange" is b/c they have a bit of a pride issue that feels their system (that has said 8800) is not the lowly midrange but is uber 1337 and will beat down all smack-tard "real" midrange. They run wit da big dawgs, yo.

Seriously, if you got an 8800gtx 4 months ago and paid $x you need to be ok with the fact that eventually it will not be top-dog. Sometimes that happens faster that you would like. 😉

So far you guys are on the money. With both these systems so far you can tweak small things and adjust the cost to your liking. Sure, one could cut costs on the cooler, case and even a bit on the psu and get around that 1k spot with exactly the same performance... but that is the point here I think. If you want to make that your budget then these builds give you a guide on where to start.
 
Just wanted to say that this is one of the better series I've seen here in a while.

Two things I would love to see from it.

1) Typical overclocking done on each system (though if they were going to OC, I think the 4300 might have been mandatory) to see how much performance a typical person could get out of each system across the different apps.

2) A comparison to slightly older systems. I know there are a ton of us out there that still have S939 single or dual core procs and good but aging gpus. I'd love to see some numbers concerning the improvement one could expect with each of these systems. (yea, this one might be a little to personalized for the series.)

Good job so far.


Oh, and as for the low/mid range, I think they were right on.

Budget built would have a 3800+ or 4300 (many would OC both though), a cheap but decent mobo (Biostar 550, DS/S 3, and the MSI come to mind), and the graphics would, I think depend more on exactly what a person's budget is.

For midrange, I think most people would still choose the 6600 and if they could afford it, the 8800gts.
 
So much just depends on what you are going to do with a system that makes it tough to define "mid-range".

Example - My last system was only an E4300(OC'd) and a 7600GT. However, it has 4gb of RAM and (3) HDDs and Dual 19" monitors.
(Virtual Server Hosting is it's toughest work load.)

However, since a game is not even loaded on this system, even the 7600GT is overkill.

I think part of the problem folks have with the 8800GTS is that it is far more GPU than the majority of people need. Even gamers.

You could save $100 or more and still get a great card.
(I saw an x1900 for only $129!)

However, when we consider their are still far more powerful solutions that are gonig to be in the top end, the Middle GPU has to fall someplace.
 
So much just depends on what you are going to do with a system that makes it tough to define "mid-range".
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Totally agree with you on that.

We strove to 'balance' the systems as far as gaming and everything else was concerned.

But if you were building a system specifically for, say, photoshop use - that would have been a very different animal indeed...
 
I'd have to disagree that the GTS is more than most gamers can use. Though many gamers have a LCD with 1280x1024, widescreen monitors and game support are on the sharp increase. I recently bought myself a 22" widescreen for a very reasonable price I thought, and it supports 1600x1050 I think it was? Anyways, of course a gamer like myself would rather play at his monitor's native resolution, but I find even with my AGP 1950pro 512mb, I can't do 10 man raids in WoW with decent framerates at the monitor's native resolution. Never mind larger raids than that or PVP. So, I've reduced the res a step down from that and even decreased the quality settings a bit to make it run smoothly.

I'd LOVE an 8800GTS. perfect choice for a modern mid-range pc. I don't ONLY game, I like to watch movies and TV shows too, and I would imagine at least some people are with me on that (widescreen).
 
My point was "most".

The number of people using 1680x1050 and such resolutions is well below 50%.

Your WoW issue is most likely RAM or CPU related not graphics.
I've run WoW on a 5900Ultra w/o issues.

If you are running in Windowed Mode, try w/o Windowed mode.
This seemed to help me alot on my one system until I upgraded my RAM.
 
I am really glad to see you guys doing these articles. I suggested they be done a few weeks ago on the community forum (new story ideas) and from the lack of response, i thought fell on deaf ears.

Now I do not know if you planned this already, but it is good that you have!!!


What would be interesting as a continuance of this, once you get the systems all running, would be one of two things (or both if you want).

1. As people have suggested, try to OC it a bit and see what you can get as a nice STABLE non power-sucking system state. Something the "average" techie could do without fear of frying their system.

2. Future updates to the systems that you put together. Sort of a list for upgrades that fall within certain budgetary standards ($500/yr, $250/yr, whatever). This way, people who followed your advice on the system they built at home can still follow your advice on optimal (in your opinion) updates.

The second topic would also be good for VERY involved discussion on the boards, as I am sure that everyone and their mother would want to get their $1.67 into the mix.

So long as everyone here remembers that the configurations are merely suggestions and not the bible of computer construction!!!


BTW, I agree with a lot of what you are saying in the build here, although a decent sound card (I did not see one, I might have skipped it) would be pretty nice.

The 8800 is definitely creeping into the midrange now (while I look at my 7950 I bought in October with sad eyes...) and although it is still rather expensive, will satisfy all but the die hards looking for major tech bling.

Cases are rough, and yours is an interesting chice and layout, although the purple clips are a bit chintzy... I am surprised that you did not choose a Lian for this though...


A few suggestions on the layout of the reviews you may want to pursue. I know you guys are limited to page space to maximize your ad-layout, but the klunky 12 page spread for everything is a little hard to follow.

Most people have (at least) 17" monitors with standard resolutions of 1280x1024, so it might be good to start having a bit more width in your articles to be able to fit the tables more effectively.

Also, a summary page with pictures, MFR links, and price-scan links (Pricegraber or whoever you guys might want to use) would be helpful. Somewhere where you can see the end result, like it was laid out on a table in front of them (ready to assemble).

Also, suggested alternatives might also work, including all the necessary information, but it is understood that you are only building one machine per price point and that the alternate options, while viable, were not used.

And that is about it.

Final note. Once you are finished with this, this might be a good set of articles to "feature" with a perma-link on the main page. One of the most common questions on a tech board is usually "I am building XXX, any suggestions?". If this were made obvious enough, these people would have somewhere to go first thing rather than having to post and ask the same question, or at least give them a base to start at before they ask for more.


But with all that in mind, I have to say keep it up! Looking forward to your Bling!
 
I'd have to disagree that the GTS is more than most gamers can use. Though many gamers have a LCD with 1280x1024, widescreen monitors and game support are on the sharp increase. I recently bought myself a 22" widescreen for a very reasonable price I thought, and it supports 1600x1050 I think it was? Anyways, of course a gamer like myself would rather play at his monitor's native resolution, but I find even with my AGP 1950pro 512mb, I can't do 10 man raids in WoW with decent framerates at the monitor's native resolution. Never mind larger raids than that or PVP. So, I've reduced the res a step down from that and even decreased the quality settings a bit to make it run smoothly.

I'd LOVE an 8800GTS. perfect choice for a modern mid-range pc. I don't ONLY game, I like to watch movies and TV shows too, and I would imagine at least some people are with me on that (widescreen).
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See, that's the exact truth, which is something I see more and more as I look at benchmarks. People see "8800" and think GTX. The 320MB Just doesn't have the juice of the GTX for larger resolutions. The GPU component might be fairly close to the GTX in power, but it simply does not have the memory to push out those larger resolutions.

That's why it's mid range. Good power, it will play all the games pretty well, but there's not enough juice in it to be called top-of-the-line.

Then you look at the x1950pro (the XTX doesn't even come into the picture if we're talking price vs value), and although they're good cards, if you have a midrange budget, you're going to be picking a 8800GTS 320, because you're looking at a difference of $100 on the extreme (closer to $50) for a vast improvement in performance and DX10 support for the future.
 
BTW, I agree with a lot of what you are saying in the build here, although a decent sound card (I did not see one, I might have skipped it) would be pretty nice.
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you know, I was gonna say something about that and forgot... glad someone else was thinking about it. I agree that the budget box should stick w/ onboard and it was mentioned as such... but the setup on this midrange screams a need for a solid card and nothing was even mentioned about it.

I still like everything that was chosen, but honestly... dedicated sound blows away onboard for both quality and performance (in the case of a dsp). So out of curiosity, why the decision for onboard? what was the thinking on this guys? Was it purely budget, or is there something else? Inquiring minds want to know. 😉
 
My mistake. I went back to the first article where the OS omition is mentioned.

And it is true: linux is an option. I'll read on the posts from my home pc, which is currently running openSuse :wink:
 
My point was "most".

The number of people using 1680x1050 and such resolutions is well below 50%.

Your WoW issue is most likely RAM or CPU related not graphics.
I've run WoW on a 5900Ultra w/o issues.

If you are running in Windowed Mode, try w/o Windowed mode.
This seemed to help me alot on my one system until I upgraded my RAM.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind however, the article is generally aimed at someone planning to buy a new PC. Of course that does not always mean a new monitor (and a good reason to exclude it from the article), but I would imagine with 22" screens dropping very rapidly in price lately, a good number of people might buy one with this new mid-range pc of theirs. People's CURRENT compuers are not really the consideration, we're looking at the NEW pc they're buying.

I realize WoW can be run on really low end systems, and I concede there COULD be a bottleneck elsewhere. I recently increased from 1gb to 2gb of DDR RAM without a noticeable improvement besides load screens, so the last likely culprit is my A643200+ 939 processor. I know it's not much of a processor, but I'd be surprised if WoW was significantly impacted by it (rather than the video card). I even upgraded my power supply to a 550w modular unit to ensure that was'nt the issue in power delivery to the video card. Video drivers are the latest catalyst.

1680x1050 is a lot of resolution. I would love to hear from someone with a similar PC to mine, but a recent tom's article (sorry I don't recall the title) seemed to suggest to me that my A643200 would be a minimal bottleneck for this video card. Most benchmarks are based on a solo player with only CPU enemies running around, multiplayer is a lot more demanding (also with Ventrilo running in the background).

I'll investigate "windowed mode". I'm just running whatever mode is default currently AFAIK. I thought windowed mode referred to running the game in a smaller window than full screen? I would think that would make it run a lot faster if anything...
 
Good article, I agree with your component choices again. I really thought that the controversy would heat up for the mid range since the low-end system was so solid. I guess not though.

The only changes that could be made are just tweaks based on personal preference, like buying a 1950pro instead of the 8800gts or different brands of ram / psu / case. It would have been nice if you could have included an overclocked system using the best cheap OC components just to see how it fares against the others. But of course, that is beyond the scope of the article.

Oh and you should have included the low end system scores in most of those benchmarks. Not a big deal, I assume you will do this for the last article.
 
Good article chaps - but I think I am going to have serious envy issues with the last set up.

I agree overclocking should be covered in a follow up article or briefly in the summary, depending how much time the reviewers can spend on it.

On screen sizes, please don't make the pages wider - I normally catch up at work, and I can't see a big screen coming my way :cry:
 
The "Windowed Mode" thing is just what I notice from personal experience.

It runs much slower in this mode on my gaming laptop than when not in this mode. I don't know why, I just experience this.


I can't argue that the 8800 GTS 320mb model is not a good card at a good price. It most certainly is :>>

I'm just cheap about certain things :>

I can get a 7900GS or X1900GT for about $130 and should tackle most stuff w/o a problem. Heck, look at what they said about the card included in the low end system. This would be a massive upgrde and still inexpensive.

But all depends on the person.
I don't think I'm ever going to play Crysis or HL2 or most of the other games that really need the power of that card.

So I look at the 8800GTS and think, "Yeah know, I could add a 2nd HDD for backups, a 9-in-1 multimedia reader or perhaps a 2nd monitor instead of this card but still have a card everyone was drooling over just a couple months ago for playing the same games I'm still going to be playing".

I'm going to be upgrading my PC to 8gb soon and the quad-core in the fall. (Wife Willing) However, I will not be upgrading my 7600GT because it meets my needs while the other items are still a limiting factor for me.

I'm not the normal user, that is no doubt :>
Add on top of that I'm normally a cheapskate. (The secret is out :>)
 
I just built a computer for ~$1200 (software excluded) yet it's quite inferior to this midrange build presented which makes me a little remorseful. However this wasn't because I was ill-informed with my purchases. I had to make a lot of concessions due to Tax, Shipping, and I couldn't really rely on rebates because I had to worry about the immediate costs. Though if I could've spared a $100 or $150 more I would've gone with the e6600 and 8800 GTS instead of the e6420 and a 7 series.

About the midrange debate. I think it depends on the consumer because most of the users at hardware forums such as this one would consider $1200 midrange, but if you asked an average customer at Fry's or BestBuy's they would probably have a different opinion.
 
this is about the same of what i want to buy.
although with some differences. (i want the 8600GTS heat sink)
i don't plan on playing many games, even though i want the option too perhaps in the future.
my computer is in my room so i want it to be quieter then more powerful (like a new apprentice..)
i think you should have suggested alternatives to each part.
or not just make it into categories - low-mid-high' but by uses commonly done with the computer - say' gaming, graphics, etc.
i think the GTS 320 is more of the high end card although there are better ones (i don't include the 640 as better since it has mostly exactly the same performance as the 320). also, i think say' it's not high end because you can put a ridicules 8800 ultra SLI - which no one (except Mega geeks will do - and i'm writing this in a hardware forum!)
 
Excellent article and it shows how much a system can fall behind just in a year. I bought a X2 3800 last year and now I fall into the budget line, heh. I'll be keeping it for a while, the performance is enough for me.
 
This is the system I was waiting to see as our cheapest system is considered upper mid range. The one thing I got out of it is that TG and I have a very different definition of mid range. Our mid range system uses a either Gigabyte or Intel motherboard with 965P, 7600GT, E6420, 160gig Seagate Barracuda 3g/s, and 2gigs of generic RAM (with lifetime warranty). :)

The case: no comment. (personal preference)

Motherboard: Not sure what it is about TG and MSI. Since no sound card was used, I think the superior onboard sound of both Intel and Gigabyte boards make them better choices than the MSI. The MSI P965 Platinum is aimed at the budget market, and really isn't a good match for the rest of the components selected IMO. Again, this seems like a gaming choice much more than an all purpose board. No E-SATA??

CPU: closer to high end than middle IMO. E6420 would probably have been a better choice for this price range and OC's extremely well.

CPU cooler: A budget cooler on a mid range system, go figure. I'd recommend a Thermaltake Big Typhoon. Substitute the fan for a 3500RPM TT Smart Fan 2 and you've got one of the best air coolers money can buy, for under $60USD.

RAM: Again not really happy with the selection, but I can understand why it was chosen for the price. I think the 2gigs is plenty though.

Video Card: I'd call this high end. A mid range card is probably a 7800/7900. No one but gamers care about DX10 at this point.

Hard Drive: A good choice, although they aren't nearly as price competitive in AU. I'm curious as to why you went with a single hard drive instead of 2x250 in RAID 0. In AU, I'd recommend the Seagate 7200.10, size of your choice, because of the prices vs performance.

PSU: Never heard of Aerocool. Must be a USA only brand? There's lots of good PSUs between 550w and 650w for a similar price range. No problems with this one and I'll take TG's word for it being efficient and quiet.

Optical Drive: I think they're all about the same although I haven't used a Sony 7170. I'm glad TG used an SATA drive.

Benchmarks: Very comparable to my almost yr old system (sig). I would have expected a little more from a E6600 and 8800GTS, but of course this is not overclocked and mine is.

Overall I'd say this system was definitely more upper-mid range, borderline high end. It'll be interesting to see where you draw the line. Huge difference between this and the low end system.

I appreciate the work you've put into this project. :)
 
I love Tom's Hardware, and I'm finding the system builder marathon to be really helpful and informative. I am, however, having a problem finding where this optical drive is being sold. Tom's Hardware has done articles before on the Sony/NEC Optiarc 7170 SATA, so I assumed it was out there, but I can't find the darn thing! All I can come up with is the 7170 IDE. The SATA version seems to be non-existent.

Please Help! This drive looks like an awesome steal, and I definitely want one in my new system.

Also, it might be useful to readers if Tom's Hardware provided a few links to where these components can be found. I know that the writers have put a lot of research and hard work into this stuff, but if the readers can't get what they want out of the article, whether that be an interesting read or to find the parts they need for their system, it sort of becomes a waste. I think the very least that could be done is to simply make sure that the product comes up in the Tom's Hardware PriceGrabber-powered price comparison tool.
 
I would just like to say great job so far on day 1 and day 2. Alot can be argued of course, picking a motherbard with 4 memory slots for the budget PC still keeps you at the same pricepoint (for example)

I have to say thats my only official gripe outta both the articles. Awsome starting point for just about anyone looking to toss together a system.

I'm looking forward to the next 2 articles


(my build) it's more than a year old and still does all i want it to....
Socket 754 Sempron 3400+.....
Geforce 6200 (with the extra 4 pipelines unlocked) 256mb Native memory (no TC).
400w PSU (HIPRO) maybe i skimped a bit on this but so far my machine has be on and never turned off *besides reboots for updates* no odd crashes ever.
2x512mb PC3200 (Samsung chips) dunno much else they were given to me
XP Home..
reused Optic drives
Adaptec 2940U2W with a couple of 36gb 10k RPM drives
plus i have some donated/reused PATA drives tossed in there for storage n such (total HD space is 200gb *aprox)

the total cost for my build nearly a year and a half ago was $285 USD
mostly because the only things i purchased new were the mobo, cpu, PSU.... the scsi card and drives were Ebayed system pulls and only cost $60 the rest of the parts were gifts (video card, memory, OS) the reused were just the optics and odd HDs i had laying around

oh and i have a "frankensteined" old apple PPC case, which is literally cut in half (i used a hacksaw)so all i have is the Bays from the top portion of the case which is where an old AT Power supply resides and gives power to the scsi drives that live there, oh and not to mention the 10gig scsi drive from the Apple PPC I decided to plug it in to see if it works and it lives on to this day lol..

im rambling and i'll shut up now that I'm way off topic (just kinda fun to relate what kinda crap you can throw together when all yur pennies are crying from being pinched)

have fun everyone
 
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