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Co BIY

Splendid
I agree, Ponzi scheme is the wrong kind of scam to describe bitcoin. People are being tricked into paying money for an imaginary asset with no intrinsic value.
So its more like buying a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, or naming a star.

It is like a Ponzi scheme in that it requires new entrants to continue to drive the value higher for the original investors but I agree it may be a new type of scam that is hard to describe.

Can you have an asset bubble when the underlying "thing" is not an asset because it has no value ?

The house of cards will be revealed when people decide to cash out. What can I actually buy with a Bitcoin ?
 
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Co BIY

Splendid
So what you're saying is that if I look for sold listings, the system does not discriminate between sales that were purposely closed and actual sold listings?

What I am describing is worse than that (which is also rampant). In the shill bidder scenario you are actually losing bids to an agent (usually just a fake account controlled by the buyer) of the buyer who was bidding just to get the price up and never actually closes the transaction even though the auction lists as "sold" on ebay. This can allow a buyer to create the appearance of a high market clearing price for his wares despite never shipping a unit to a customer. He will pay some auction fees to ebay but that is a marketing expense for him and prevents ebay from being a victim of the scam. Ebay lost nothing and has little incentive to enforce against the practice.

This scam really damages the value of ebay "sales" records for any use including articles of this type.
 
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SSGBryan

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It is like a Ponzi scheme in that it requires new entrants to continue to drive the value higher for the original investors who but I agree it may be a new type of scam that is hard to describe.

Can you have an asset bubble when the underlying "thing" is not an asset because it has no value ?

The house of cards will be revealed when people decide to cash out. What can I actually buy with a Bitcoin ?

Bitcoin does have value. We may disagree about what the value is, but if people are willing to use it for the payment for goods and services (There are legitimate businesses that take bitcoin. No, I don't know why they would; I certainly wouldn't), then it meets the definition of a currency.

AFA I am concerned, this is the 21st Century of the Tulip mania, but until it blows up, we are stuck with it.
 
It is like a Ponzi scheme in that it requires new entrants to continue to drive the value higher for the original investors who but I agree it may be a new type of scam that is hard to describe.

Can you have an asset bubble when the underlying "thing" is not an asset because it has no value ?

The house of cards will be revealed when people decide to cash out. What can I actually buy with a Bitcoin ?

You can buy an unlock key with it after you get ransomwared! 😕 Sad, but true.
 
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I agree, Ponzi scheme is the wrong kind of scam to describe bitcoin. People are being tricked into paying money for an imaginary asset with no intrinsic value.
So its more like buying a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, or naming a star.

FWIW, the Chinese government has complete draconian control of the internet in their country, so it would be trivial for them to shut down bitcoin in China and track/censor/arrest every single miner - if they actually wanted to, which they don't. But that wouldn't do anything to stop anybody in the rest of the world

So in the US, if the SEC, US Treasury, and/or Fed came out fully against cryptocurrency & BTC exchanges, would that curtail the mining other than researchers in blockchain? Or would it take both the US and China fully against it?
 

Giroro

Splendid
Bitcoin does have value. We may disagree about what the value is, but if people are willing to use it for the payment for goods and services (There are legitimate businesses that take bitcoin. No, I don't know why they would; I certainly wouldn't), then it meets the definition of a currency.

AFA I am concerned, this is the 21st Century of the Tulip mania, but until it blows up, we are stuck with it.
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, It's only worth what people are willing to pay for it, because it has no useful purpose whatsoever. It only exists in the abstract as flipped bits on a computer.
Compared to something like gold and silver, which are physical materials with a ton of useful qualities. Gold will always have value as a useful metal that you can use to make electronics, or even as a paperweight. Even if nobody wanted it for it's historical use as currency, it will never be worth "zero". Rocks and dirt on the ground still have value as a thing you can use to pave a road or fill in a hole. Bitcoin cannot be used to build a computer or fill a hole. It can be worth zero. Every dollar spent is a dollar taken from somebody else. That's it. It's really that simple. It's this weird hypothetical textbook example that is suddenly applied to real life - sort of like how a basic physics class will make you assume everything is an ideal sphere when calculating air resistance or gravity.
The value of bitcoin in a way is "what somebody will pay you for it". But it also has the real calculation which some speculators see as "all of the real money people have ever spent on bitcoin, divided by the number of bitcoin" (market cap) .. but that isn't actually accurate, because there is no central repository of currency, resources, or fiat to hold that value. The real money isn't actually ever attached to the bitcoin. If you give somebody $100,000 to buy bitcoin, nothing requires them to keep that money and buy back the bitcoin at market value when you want to sell. They can go spend it on a Tesla, or groceries, or whatever. They get the money, and you get a number typed onto the screen of a calculator. So the real market cap calculation is "what one person is willing to spend on a small amount of bitcoin at this exact moment" multiplied by "all of the bitcoin in existence". To say the least, this is a very volatile and risky "beanie baby" level of calculation. But, even a beanie baby contains a few cents worth of recyclable materials. On a long enough timeline its an economic inevitability that the market has to converge on the point where one wallet contains every single bitcoin, and that wallet is worth exactly nothing because nobody wants to buy it. They won't even buy it for a single cent. Well in practicality every single bitcoin will be in a dead/lost wallet, but the effect is about the same. Everything else happening is noise in the margins of speculation, whether or not that happens in a year, or in 10,000 years. A few people will gain a lot in the short term, but a lot of people will lose exactly as much in the long term. Usually the winners are going to be creators of currency and the owners of trading platforms. Unlike most economies, bitcoin really is a zero-sum game. A simpler way to look at it is that bitcoin speculation is "dumb" in nearly the same way that gambling is "dumb" except that the juice kept by the house is represented as transaction fees. So think of investing in bitcoin the same way you would think of investing in lottery tickets.

Bitcoin isn't a currency, because it is unregulated and not endorsed by any government. You generally can't use it to buy anything. It is, at best, a commodity - like gold and silver. Yes right now some companies will accept it in a trade (usually at a massive markup over what you could buy the product for with currency) but it is still meeting the definition of a trade, not a purchase. It's like a pawn shop who will let you trade $3,000 in gold bullion for a $500 gun, knowing they can make a profit. But that pawn shop knows better than to keep the gold and hope it goes up in value someday, any successful pawn shop resells gold as quickly as possible to turn an actual profit. They they will never pay market value for gold. They take a risk by briefly holding a commodity, so they make you pay for that risk (plus profit). Sure you can trade bitcoin for an RTX 3060, but that card costs "$1,200" in bitcoin when it costs "$600" on Ebay. Either way it coming from a scalper who is marking it up from $350.
 

Phaaze88

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hopefully it means fewer people willing to pay outrageous sums of money.
In regards to the kind of cash people spend on intrinsically worthless FIFA(and other sports) card packs that are refreshed every year, and other ridiculous MTX...
What's a gpu for 2-3x the MSRP, when they spend way more than that on bits/bytes of data far costlier than their own internet bills?

Hope is dead. Some people out there seriously need counseling.
 

Heat_Fan89

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What I am describing is worse than that (which is also rampant). In the shill bidder scenario you are actually losing bids to an agent (usually just a fake account controlled by the buyer) of the buyer who was bidding just to get the price up and never actually closes the transaction even though the auction lists as "sold" on ebay. This can allow a buyer to create the appearance of a high market clearing price for his wares despite never shipping a unit to a customer. He will pay some auction fees to ebay but that is a marketing expense for him and prevents ebay from being a victim of the scam. Ebay lost nothing and has little incentive to enforce against the practice.

This scam really damages the value of ebay "sales" records for any use including articles of this type.
Interesting, is there a way to tell if the seller is fudging the sale of his/her item? I see a lot of sales for Playstation 5's on Ebay with an asking price well over a $1000 with over 200 sold units.
 

Rob1C

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For want of a dollar the graphics card was lost.

Investing over $400 (MSRP) to earn 400¢ / day seems like a lost opportunity; when you could earn 10x that much not cryptomining.
 

Co BIY

Splendid
Interesting, is there a way to tell if the seller is fudging the sale of his/her item? I see a lot of sales for Playstation 5's on Ebay with an asking price well over a $1000 with over 200 sold units.

One indicator of a seller who engages in a lot of "shill" bidding in his own auctions could be a implausibly high "sold" number on an item that is in short supply. How likely is it that a seller has access to 200 new Playstations when major stores have had difficulty getting that number ?

If a seller has "sold" 200 of the same "rare" comic books then he is either selling fakes or having shill accounts close out "auctions" when the price is not reaching the high levels they want.

I use ebay for things I want but you need to watch for the scams. One off used items or antiques should have individual descriptors preferably with pictures. "Buy it now" pricing is better for commodity items.

I believe high listed reserves or required starting bids are great because they keep me from wasting time following auctions that I will not be competitive in.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
AMD and Nvidia and the rest ought to jack their prices up 200%. Won't help us, but it would put the scalpers out of business.
AMD and Nvidia sell their chips in bulk to AIB partners under contract pricing, they cannot unilaterally change pricing of their chips for sales that are already committed to under contract, so the cost-to-AIBs is pretty much set before launch for most of the first year on the market.

They'll probably jack up prices on the next generation by 20-30% up-front - easier for AMD and Nvidia to offer discounts to AIBs in case sales turn out slower than expected than for AMD and Nvidia to re-negotiate contract prices up after the fact.
 

comedichistorian

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So its more like buying a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, or naming a star.

Yeah and with those two examples you at least get something to frame and hang on the wall :ROFLMAO:

Moon property, on the other hand, now THAT'S where it's at. In 20 years, while all you clowns are down there on earth crying cause President Eilish confiscated all your BTC and died your hair green I'll be up on my MOON RANCH laughing my ass off.
 
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mrv_co

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"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Glad I bought my 5700 XT back when they were cheap and plentiful. I'm also glad I stuck with a 1440p monitor.

Better eBay I suppose than buying GPUs out of the trunk of a Delta 88 in a strip mall parking lot.
 
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atomicWAR

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Its tough I am not a huge fan of scalping but is it scalping when everyone is charging the same prices? When it comes to the new parts I do feel like market places can do more to limit scalping. Newegg and amazon could simply not allow the marked up cards/parts/consoles to be listed. They claim to take down listings, and do but it takes nearly 48-72 hours minimum to get a listing pulled. Something I have done on numerous occasions despite not actually being in the market for anything at the moment. The problem is the sellers are sold out before the listing ever gets pulled and when they get new stock and relist it...you have to do it all over again. It's like the market places "forget" these sellers are doing this. It must be easy to forget with the prices they are racking in...

The used market is another story though. It is hard to fault folks selling their old GPUs at the same price as everyone else. I am a decent example of this. I am moving from Hawaii and need to sell a lot of my tech "junk". I tend to sit on old GPUs, CPUs, ram and motherboards like gold because I'll throw them in a friend or family members build for low to no cost. But now that I have a very expensive move on the horizon I am selling off all my old gear to make the move more reasonable in price so to speak.

As a disabled vet I am on a fixed income so the silicon shortages and crypto boom have helped raise the amount of money I can get for these parts by a lot. Many of the cards/parts I am selling, have sold or are in the process of being sold (ie deal is agreed on but waiting for cash and parts exchange hands) are at their original MSRP or slightly higher for anything within two generations of "new". I looked up everything I am selling, what they were going for online, and I marked it even lower (approx 100 dollars or more) since as I am sticking with craigslist/facebook so not to have to deal with mailing things out and still these parts go for at or above MSRP in a lot of the cases. Part of me feels bad but part of me doesn't. For years I have willingly taken a hit on my old hardware and now I can't or at least shouldn't. Folks are tight for cash during the pandemic so they are going to make it where ever they can. And yes I get the hypocrisy of cash being tight, it is just as tight for the person buying...or so I would assume.

At the end of the day though if marketplaces forced sellers to be within say 10-15% or MSRPs of new parts the situation would not be as dire. The used market would likely still exist with these shortages and the prices might not be any different for used parts. But I think we can all agree that something needs to be done about scalping of new products.
 
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InvalidError

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Newegg and amazon could simply not allow the marked up cards/parts/consoles to be listed.
They make a commission on sales, so they have a vested interest in not being proactive. Even if they were, it would only mean more profit for their competitors who aren't and most marketplaces still getting cleaned out of first-hand products near MSRP for several more months.

The only real hope of things coming back to normal is the bunch of new fabs getting built or upgraded for 2022-2024.
 

atomicWAR

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They make a commission on sales, so they have a vested interest in not being proactive. Even if they were, it would only mean more profit for their competitors who aren't and most marketplaces still getting cleaned out of first-hand products near MSRP for several more months.

The only real hope of things coming back to normal is the bunch of new fabs getting built or upgraded for 2022-2024.

I understand and I get why things likely won't ever change on the marketplace front. Don't get me wrong I would love to see a shift of that nature but is likely only ever going to be wishful thinking on my part. Supply, demand and retailers taking their cut. This is capitalism...the good the bad and the ugly all wrapped up in one. You would need laws passed for any real change in scalping to happen. Something I didn't and won't go into at any real depth for all the obvious reasons. But you are correct more fabs/capacity is the only way out of this predicament for now.
 

InvalidError

Titan
Moderator
You would need laws passed for any real change in scalping to happen.
Were it not for board manufacturers having contract prices for GPU chips likely also limiting how much they can charge for GPUs, AMD, Nvidia and their board partners would likely be taking a much larger bite of the scalping markups. Almost everything has gone up in prices significantly over the last year thanks to market disruptions. Cash injections by governments to prevent economic collapse are also contributing to inflation in some places.

It was going to be a not-so-good time to buy no matter what.

Edit: 20-40% more GPUs going through eBay scalpers is good news despite pricing remaining practically unchanged: it means supply is increasing, which should make inflated prices more difficult to sustain.
 
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atomicWAR

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Were it not for board manufacturers having contract prices for GPU chips likely also limiting how much they can charge for GPUs, AMD, Nvidia and their board partners would likely be taking a much larger bite of the scalping markups. Almost everything has gone up in prices significantly over the last year thanks to market disruptions. Cash injections by governments to prevent economic collapse are also contributing to inflation in some places.

It was going to be a not-so-good time to buy no matter what.

Yeah it is pretty brutal out there at the moment. I am lucky in that I need to get rid of stuff, not buy it. I don't ever recall getting higher than MSRP prices on used gear so consistently and not have it be related to a user/business being reliant on legacy hardware due to their software use or existing hardware infrastructure. So we are seeing a ton of everyday users who whether from necessity or the their ability to make an easy buck, sell used gear at higher than new prices due to the shortages/boom. When it is a sellers market like now usually it's not a great time to be the buyer, price wise. This shortage and crypto boom have just made the situation considerably worse.

I even briefly thought of selling my gear at lower prices but my concern then became that someone would only buy it to flip it. Heck even now I worry it could be the case. Example I am selling a factory overclocked GTX 1080 today for 650 USD. I have seen my exact card go for over 1000 used though 750-900 is more typical. Plenty of room to make a profit flipping the card. I could have easily moved up the price but honestly I feel bad as it is. If not for the move I would have most likely kept this gear for those family and friend builds I spoke of earlier in the thread.

As usual you are dead on the money. I always enjoy when we have a nice back and forth like today. I mostly already know something about what your going to say but when I don't I usually learn something of great value. I hope some of the forums users can learn and/or enjoy the banter we all share. The community on Tom's is why it is my favorite tech site to post on so at least we have that bright spot during the shortages that everyone can share!!!...not just the sellers ;)
 
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