Upgrading classes

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Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
>>> I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
>>> appropriate challenge, let alone 250.
>
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> *GREAT* *WORKS*.
>
> That's a handwave, not an example. Also, you still have not explained
> how a commoner performs a hundred of these "great works" in his
> lifetime; you flunk the "Murder, She Wrote" test. High-level challenges
> just aren't very common outside of war campaigns and other adventures.
> However, even a very minor adventure (e.g., a one-session quickie) will
> have a handful of monster and trap challenges, and a short campaign will
> provide enough challenges to earn a level or two.
>
> I can believe that these unusual commoners participate in a dozen wacky
> adventures during their lifetimes, but I'm not buying your claim that
> they perform hundreds of great works.

There could be 'ongoing great works'. That is, if you treat each major
endeavor as equivalent to an adventure or even campaign -- getting
chosen mayor could be very challenging, over the course of years. It
could require several (major) steps: gaining a signficant position in a
guild, achieving the right marriage, getting the incumbent removed,
(de)rigging the election[1], etc. Mostly non-combat encounters (though
there may be some), CR can reach moderately high level.

What I don't like about it is that the CR determinations may have
nothing to do with the threat they'd pose to a 'normal' party. OTOH,
the goals aren't what you'd see for a typical party either.

[1] I'm assuming mayors are elected, whether by the populace or by a
town council.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Keith Davies wrote:
> Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>
>>Justisaur wrote:
>>
>>>>I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
>>>>appropriate challenge, let alone 250.
>>
>>Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>>
>>>*GREAT* *WORKS*.
>>
>>That's a handwave, not an example. Also, you still have not explained
>>how a commoner performs a hundred of these "great works" in his
>>lifetime; you flunk the "Murder, She Wrote" test. High-level challenges
>>just aren't very common outside of war campaigns and other adventures.
>>However, even a very minor adventure (e.g., a one-session quickie) will
>>have a handful of monster and trap challenges, and a short campaign will
>>provide enough challenges to earn a level or two.
>>
>>I can believe that these unusual commoners participate in a dozen wacky
>>adventures during their lifetimes, but I'm not buying your claim that
>>they perform hundreds of great works.
>
>
> There could be 'ongoing great works'. That is, if you treat each major
> endeavor as equivalent to an adventure or even campaign -- getting
> chosen mayor could be very challenging, over the course of years. It
> could require several (major) steps: gaining a signficant position in a
> guild, achieving the right marriage, getting the incumbent removed,
> (de)rigging the election[1], etc. Mostly non-combat encounters (though
> there may be some), CR can reach moderately high level.
>
> What I don't like about it is that the CR determinations may have
> nothing to do with the threat they'd pose to a 'normal' party. OTOH,
> the goals aren't what you'd see for a typical party either.
>
> [1] I'm assuming mayors are elected, whether by the populace or by a
> town council.

The jockeying for position and favor-mongering that it would take to be
appointed in a non-elected post would be significant. Perhaps even more so.



DWS

 

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Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>
> There could be 'ongoing great works'. That is, if you treat each
> major endeavor as equivalent to an adventure or even campaign --
> getting chosen mayor could be very challenging, over the course of
> years. It could require several (major) steps: gaining a signficant
> position in a guild, achieving the right marriage, getting the
> incumbent removed, (de)rigging the election[1], etc. Mostly
> non-combat encounters (though there may be some), CR can reach
> moderately high level.

Before anyone else jumps on this, I can see this reaching to mid-level.
To go beyond it you'd have to do impressive things *as* mayor -- major
negotiations, quell riots, that sort of thing..

You might find a handful of commoners in the 18-20 level range across a
continent; it just is not easy to do. It could be done with relatively
little personal combat, though.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David Serhienko wrote:
>>
>> Non-combat, city appropriate?
>>
>> FIRE!
>
> Actually that's a pretty reasonable suggestion. High level commoners
> are on the fire brigade. Rescuing someone out of a burning building
> should be worth a pretty hefty XP award, or possibly several if you
> count it as multiple traps. One could extend that to other emergency
> work as well.
>
> Unfortunately a rogue or expert would be much better at this than a
> commoner, but I can still see it.

A rogue or expert is much better at *everything* than a commoner.
Still, I expect most on the fire brigade -- if there's a formal one --
are still going to be commoners.

Just like most members of the thieves' guild and of the churches are,
for that matter. At least IMC.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:17:22 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
scribed into the ether:

>
>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnd5obvd.ifj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>
>> Justisaur wrote:
>>> *Bzzt* You are slipping into rural / farmer stuff again. High level
>>> commoners are almost exclusively city-folk.
>
>
>
>I expect that this is just a symptom of granularity. A given village isn't
>likely to have a high level commoner, but an assortment of 10,000 random
>villagers from all over would have more high level Commoners than a single
>city of 10,000.

Your graps of statistics is as poor as your grasp of everything else.

>> Also, none of those challenges strike me as having a CR high enough for
>> a high-level character to actually earn XP for it. It's hard to judge,
>> since all of the would be ad-hoc awards. Also, there's the "Jessica
>> Fletcher" problem: I just don't see one person getting involved in
>> 200-300 such situations in one lifetime, and that's how many even-CR
>> problems you need to hit 20th level. It's much more plausible to me that
>> they've been involved in a few war campaigns or heroic adventures (like
>> Bilbo Baggins).
>
>
>But then they'd be 'Burglars', not Commoners.

You don't need rogue levels to rob someone, you simpering moron.

 

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On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:16:50 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
scribed into the ether:

>
>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnd5okpe.jgv.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>
>>>> It's much more plausible to me that they've been involved in a few
>>>> war campaigns or heroic adventures (like Bilbo Baggins).
>>
>> Shawn Wilson wrote:
>>> But then they'd be 'Burglars', not Commoners.
>>
>> Some of them probably are burglars. You don't need rogue levels to
>> burgle houses. But note that I didn't say they'd all be exactly like
>> Bilbo, sheesh.
>
>
>'Burglars' are adventurers.

No, they are just thieves. They may also be adventurers, but there's
certainly no guarantee of that.

> The Commoner class
>represents the non-adventuring majority of humanity.

The commoner class represents commoner majority of humanity. It has no
bearing on whether they are adventurers or not.

The vast majority of humanity are 1st level commoners, and remain that way
their entire lives.

> Commoners aren't Bilbo. They don't have Rogue or Fighter or 'Burglar' levels.

In what way did Bilbo possess anything besides 1 level of commoner the day
Gandalf came knocking on his door to go visit the Lonely Mountain?

> They don't
>fight monsters. They dont't loot dungeons. If they did they wouldn't be
>Commoners, they'd be Rogues or Fighters or 'Burglars'.

Being a rogue or a fighter requires specific, specialized training. The
majority of people-who-fight in the game are not fighters, they are
warriors. Fighters are a step above just someone who has trained with
weapons.

A commoner could easily have the mindset to be a rogue, but lacking any
ability to learn how to do it, cannot have actual levels of rogue. He could
still easily be an adventurer.

 

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On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:10:19 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
scribed into the ether:

>
>"Justisaur" <justisaur@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1113408293.067343.237970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>> I'm sure you can come up with mundane urban Challenges appropriate to
>> every
>>> level if you try.
>>
>> I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
>> appropriate challenge, let alone 250. It's you who are defending this
>> position of non-combat challenges, why don't you come up with
>> something?
>
>
>
>I don't feel the urge.

Weasel, weasel, weasel. You "feel the urge" to make a dozen replies on the
topic, but when called to actually back up your innane prattle, suddenly
you can't be bothered. Moron.

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
>>
>> [1] I'm assuming mayors are elected, whether by the populace or by a
>> town council.
>
> The jockeying for position and favor-mongering that it would take to
> be appointed in a non-elected post would be significant. Perhaps even
> more so.

True enough.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:00:45 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnd5qlvc.nd0.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> Justisaur wrote:
>> >> I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
>> >> appropriate challenge, let alone 250.
>>
>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > *GREAT* *WORKS*.
>>
>> That's a handwave, not an example.
>
> Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects of
>the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC class
>characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point bonus for
>their successful completion?

They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering disciplines, not
commoners.

>> I can believe that these unusual commoners participate in a dozen wacky
>> adventures during their lifetimes, but I'm not buying your claim that
>> they perform hundreds of great works.
>
> Good thing *hundreds* isn't necessary, halfwit.
>
> My gods, man. You are so full of animosity you'd rather be an *idiot*
>just so that you can disagree with me again and feel good about yourself?
>
> Take your army of straw and put it where it belongs.

It is still handwaving, Michael. I have no problem with handwaving for high
level commoners, but at least acknowledge it for what it is. It's not as
though you need to generate a specific backstory for how some level 15
commoner got there.

 

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MSB wrote:
>> Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects
>> of the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC
>> class characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point
>> bonus for their successful completion?

Matt Frisch wrote:
> They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering disciplines,
> not commoners.

In D&D, "various engineering disciplines" is Knowledge (Architecture &
Engineering). You're making the common mistake of assuming that it takes
several D&D skills to do one job.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:17:22 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
> scribed into the ether:
>
>>
>>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>>news:slrnd5obvd.ifj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>>
>>> Justisaur wrote:
>>>> *Bzzt* You are slipping into rural / farmer stuff again. High level
>>>> commoners are almost exclusively city-folk.
>>
>>I expect that this is just a symptom of granularity. A given village isn't
>>likely to have a high level commoner, but an assortment of 10,000 random
>>villagers from all over would have more high level Commoners than a single
>>city of 10,000.
>
> Your graps of statistics is as poor as your grasp of everything else.

For simplicity, let's say '15th level' is the start of 'high level'.
This is when wizards get 8th-level spells, and an easy number to work
with, so good enough.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
Thorp 4d4-3 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Hamlet 4d4-2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Village 4d4-1 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - -
SmTown 4d4 4 1 - - - - - - - - - - - -
LgTown 4d4+3 31 20 10 4 1 - - - - - - - - -
SmCity 4d4+6*2 40 44 40 31 20 10 4 1 - - - - - -
LgCity 4d4+9*3 10 20 31 40 44 40 31 20 10 4 1 - - -
Metro. 4d4+9*4 - 1 4 10 20 31 40 44 40 31 20 10 4 1

These are all out of 256 -- 4*4*4*4 -- and indicates the highest level
commoner. Populations of the settlements:

Settlement Population n/256
Thorp 20 - 80 -
Hamlet 81 - 400 -
Village 401 - 900 1
SmTown 901 - 2000 5
LgTown 2001 - 5000 66
SmCity 5001 - 12000 190 (really (1-(66/256)^2)*256=)239
LgCity 12001 - 25000 251 (really (1-(5/256)^3)*256=)255.99
Metro. 25000 - 256 (can't fail)

So, Shawn's assertion (

>>I expect that this is just a symptom of granularity. A given village
>>isn't likely to have a high level commoner, but an assortment of
>>10,000 random villagers from all over would have more high level
>>Commoners than a single city of 10,000.

) is unlikely to be true. Even if we use the smallest possible villages
(400 people) you'd have only 25 villages[1]. Given 25 villages, with a
1/256 chance of each having 1 high-level commoner, that gives you a 9%
chance of finding *1* high-level commoner in that mess.

Given a small city (pop 10,000), you have a (239/256=) *93% chance* of
finding *at least* one high-level commoner.

If you include thorps and hamlets, it gets *worse*, since they never
have high-level commoners.

Interestingly, though, commoners have a higher *mean* level in the
smaller settlements.


[1] I know he said 'of villagers', which suggests selecting from many
villages. For our purposes selecting 10000 villagers in 25 villages
is good enough -- the 'increased chance' of drawing a village that
has a high-level commoner is countered by the lower chance of
choosing that villager from the village.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "Trying to sway him from his current kook-
keith.davies@kjdavies.org rant with facts is like trying to create
keith.davies@gmail.com a vacuum in a room by pushing the air
http://www.kjdavies.org/ out with your hands." -- Matt Frisch

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in
news:slrnd5qojr.nd0.bradd+news@szonye.com:


>>> Also, you still have not explained how a commoner performs a hundred
>>> of these "great works" in his lifetime;
>
>> Nor do I have to, STRAWMAN BOY. How many experience points is a
>> great work worth? Hmm? That's *right* - it's up to *me* (the DM).
>
> If you're awarding more than one level's worth of XP, then I call
> shenanigans. If not, you'll need at least a dozen of these great works
> in a lifetime -- and that's a dozen works so great that they're worth
> maximum experience (+7 CR). That simply isn't believable. Even
> legendary geniuses like Leonardo didn't accomplish that much.

I'd certainly allow engineering the Great Wall of Waterdeep to be a
multi-'adventure' task, each milestone being worth a seperate experience
award. It's certainly going to take up a larger portion of the NPC's
life than any single adventure would a PC's.

 

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Justisaur wrote:
> >> I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
> >> appropriate challenge, let alone 250.
>
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> > *GREAT* *WORKS*.
>
> That's a handwave, not an example. Also, you still have not explained
> how a commoner performs a hundred of these "great works" in his
> lifetime; you flunk the "Murder, She Wrote" test.

Actually, speaking of murder she wrote, turn on the TV.

Almost every drama on television is full of city based non-combat
challenges. including Murder She Wrote (which, admittedly, is rarely
on, but whatever). Almost every week americans watch people solve
problems and face challenges, many of them pretty exceptional. Solve a
mystery or 20 and see if you're not getting better at it. That's what
gaining experience is. Or at least a parge part of it. And who is
Columbo if not a high level expert. I'd hardley call him a rogue.

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:g90r51l7aqb6gctdknvu7thga5lgicrpjs@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:00:45 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
> > Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects
of
> >the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC class
> >characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point bonus for
> >their successful completion?
>
> They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering disciplines, not
> commoners.

Bullshit. How do you know these architects were so multitalented as to
require Expert levels? And even if they *were* experts, HOW DID THEY GAIN
THE LEVELS? These civilian "expert" class characters aren't any better
combat trained than commoners. Unless you think all that science and
accounting just naturally lends itself to HARD MARTIAL TRAINING. The
experience problem applies to *all* the noncombat classes!

-Michael

 

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Justisaur wrote:

> > FIRE!
>
> Actually that's a pretty reasonable suggestion. High level commoners
> are on the fire brigade. Rescuing someone out of a burning building
> should be worth a pretty hefty XP award, or possibly several if you
> count it as multiple traps. One could extend that to other emergency
> work as well.
>
> Unfortunately a rogue or expert would be much better at this than a
> commoner, but I can still see it.

true, they would be better at it, but that doesn't mean the rogues or
experts are doing it, nor does the act of doing it justify taking a
level in either rogue or expert. (more expert than rogue).

 

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Anivair wrote:
>
> b) so one NPC class is somehow supperior to another?

Yes.
RTFM.

 

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Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Regarding high-level commoners:
>>It takes about 250 encounters for a PC to get to 20th level, so we ask
>>ourselves, what kind of thing has Zeke faced 250 times? What sort of
>>adventure does a Commoner have 5 times a year? Mostly, I think,
>>problem solving type stuff, some wild animals, some bar fights, some
>>bandits, some soldiering as a peasant levy ....
> That's what /typical/ commoners do, but a 20th-level commoner is not
> much like a typical 1st-level commoner, not much at all.

Isn't there a level of difficulty as well in the assigning XP? Just like the
15th level fighter isn't going to get jack for killing the 5 rats, there will
come a time when the Commoner tackleing that wasp infestation just doesn't
matter enough.
--
"... respect, all good works are not done by only good folk ..."
--till next time, Jameson Stalanthas Yu -x- <<poetry.dolphins-cove.com>>

 

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"Will Green" <will_j_green@yXaXhXoXoX.com> wrote in message
news:cG%6e.1752$716.460@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...

>> 'Burglars' are adventurers. Commoners aren't. The Commoner class
>> represents the non-adventuring majority of humanity. Commoners aren't
>> Bilbo.
>
> Don't be retarded. What fighting training did Bilbo have before he set
> out on his adventure? In what way was he "elite?"


I think he was equal to any 1st level character short of a professional
fighter type. BAB 0 is BAB 0.



>> They don't fight monsters. They dont't loot dungeons.
>
> They would if they fought monsters and looted dungeons.


Then they wouldn't be Commoners, they'd be 'Burglars' or some such.




>> If they did they wouldn't be Commoners, they'd be Rogues or Fighters or
>> 'Burglars'.
>
> Bollocks.


Charming argument there...

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5qojr.nd0.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> > Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects
> > of the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC
> > class characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point
> > bonus for their successful completion?
>
> See, this is a concrete example. Now explain how a commoner is going to
> do this kind of thing enough time to reach 20th level.

Given that such a feat requires overcoming many challenges to
accomplish, it's not even necessary to involve multiples. Finishing even one
is like completing a long series of adventures spanning years. Someone
qualified to lead the job is already surely an experienced bulider with some
other significant jobs under his belt, so one whopping tomb isn't a 1-20
path, but it might rate 5-10 levels for an originally 10th level character
depending on the ambitions involved.

> >> Also, you still have not explained how a commoner performs a hundred
> >> of these "great works" in his lifetime;
>
> > Nor do I have to, STRAWMAN BOY. How many experience points is a great
> > work worth? Hmm? That's *right* - it's up to *me* (the DM).
>
> If you're awarding more than one level's worth of XP, then I call
> shenanigans. If not, you'll need at least a dozen of these great works
> in a lifetime -- and that's a dozen works so great that they're worth
> maximum experience (+7 CR). That simply isn't believable. Even legendary
> geniuses like Leonardo didn't accomplish that much.

Now *I* call shenanigans. Your assertion that a great work isn't worth
more than one level of XP (at an undefined level, no less) is something you
have *utterly* invented, without any basis but your own twisted sense of
aesthetics - a sense that for some reason is making you think that *stupid*
answers like "the nation's premier architect regularly engaged in combat in
order to qualify for tomb-design" are somehow more attractive solutions to
the problem of advancing a commoner than simply giving them experience for
the kinds of challenges *they* face and reserving high levels for those
commoners with exceptional leadership in their fields. One good adventure's
numerous sub-challenges can add up to more than one level of XP, why not the
construction of a pharoh's tomb? Just the *design* is significiant, selling
the Pharoh on it is another, so is gathering the resources, dealing with the
labour riots... this is a labor of years and years, a monumental task, and
you don't think it should be worth so much as a *level* for a class whose
only raison d'etre is the steady advancement of a few core skills?

> If you're positing more reasonable works (even CR), then you need to
> show that a commoner will complete hundreds of them, about one every
> month for his entire life. Good luck with that.

Strawman!

> Or you could just admit that D&D only has one form of experience /fast/
> enough to get you to 20th level in one lifetime, and that it's the sort
> of experience that gives you more BAB, BSB, and hit points.

Excluded middle!

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

For someone running around trying to lecture me about logic...

> >> I can believe that these unusual commoners participate in a dozen
> >> wacky adventures during their lifetimes, but I'm not buying your
> >> claim that they perform hundreds of great works.
>
> > Good thing *hundreds* isn't necessary, halfwit.
>
> If you cheat at the XP rules, sure.

Cheat, eh? Prove it.

> > My gods, man. You are so full of animosity you'd rather be an *idiot*
> > just so that you can disagree with me again and feel good about
> > yourself?
>
> Tsk, tsk. You're suffering from Goslin Syndrome again, too proud to
> actually think about what you're saying.

That's just irony.

-Michael

 

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On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:36:07 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
scribed into the ether:

>MSB wrote:
>>> Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects
>>> of the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC
>>> class characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point
>>> bonus for their successful completion?
>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering disciplines,
>> not commoners.
>
>In D&D, "various engineering disciplines" is Knowledge (Architecture &
>Engineering). You're making the common mistake of assuming that it takes
>several D&D skills to do one job.

It's possible that they would only have that skill as a relevant one, but I
also find it likely that they would be fairly proficient stonemasons. There
would likely be other skills that they would also possess to make the job
easier.

Knowledge skills are not in the purview of commoners, however. In order to
get a skill rank needed for pyramid design, they would need to be pretty
high level in the first place.

 

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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 06:34:18 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
<mistermichael@earthlink.net> scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:g90r51l7aqb6gctdknvu7thga5lgicrpjs@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:00:45 GMT, "Michael Scott Brown"
>> > Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the architects
>of
>> >the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC class
>> >characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point bonus for
>> >their successful completion?
>>
>> They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering disciplines, not
>> commoners.
>
> Bullshit. How do you know these architects were so multitalented as to
>require Expert levels?

The idea of a civil engineer is squarely in the middle of the description
for Experts, and Commoners do not have any pyramid design abilities within
their skillset. Taking engineering as a cross-class skill means that in
order to do the building in the first place, they would already need to BE
high level, so this isn't the method for getting there.

> And even if they *were* experts, HOW DID THEY GAIN
>THE LEVELS?

Start with houses, work up to pyramids. Graduate egyptian engineering
school.

> These civilian "expert" class characters aren't any better
>combat trained than commoners.

But think of all the slave whipping the overseers get to do!

> Unless you think all that science and
>accounting just naturally lends itself to HARD MARTIAL TRAINING. The
>experience problem applies to *all* the noncombat classes!

It's a problem that most of us are able to overlook with the aforementioned
handwaving. None of the NPC classes save warrior (who of course does have a
good explanation for his hp and BAB) are even a minor threat to PCs due to
their combat ability.

 

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On 14 Apr 2005 06:32:06 -0700, "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> scribed into
the ether:

>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> > Bullshit. It is all one needs to say. You don't think the
>architects of
>> >the tombs of Egyptian pharohs were other than very talented non-PC
>class
>> >characterrs that should have warranted a *fat* experience point
>bonus for
>> >their successful completion?
>>
>> They were experts with skill ranks in various engineering
>disciplines, not
>> commoners.
>
>a) are you sure? Do you have pictures?

No, but it is the most likely possibility. I dont know much about egyptian
culture at the time...it could be that only the nobility had any chance of
aquiring the education needed for such an undertaking. In that case, they
would have needed to be aristocrats. In any event, not commoners.

>b) so one NPC class is somehow supperior to another?

Name for me one meaningful way that the Commoner class is better than any
other class in the game.

For that matter, name a meaningful way that the Commoner class is even
EQUAL to any other class. They share the same BAB table with Wizards and
Sorcerers, and that's really it. Wiz/Sorcs get elite 1st level hp and
commoners don't, so even the d4 they share doesn't make commoners equal.
For the BAB table, PC classes at any level have better gear which will make
them better fighters.

Aristicrats, Experts, and Warriors may not be better than one another, but
commoners are clearly deficient against anything else.

>c) are you sure? Still?

I'm sure that they were not commoners.

>What a ridiculous counterargument.

What's ridiculous is positing that commoners designed the pyramids.

>I say they were monks. High levels monks. they did it all by hand
>themselves.

Monks could have designed and overseen the construction, it's within their
capabilities. But build it all by hand? No...there were slaves by the
truckload.

 

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On 14 Apr 2005 06:14:26 -0700, "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> scribed into
the ether:

>
>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Justisaur wrote:
>> >> I've yet to see anyone come up with one city non-combat city
>> >> appropriate challenge, let alone 250.
>>
>> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>> > *GREAT* *WORKS*.
>>
>> That's a handwave, not an example. Also, you still have not explained
>> how a commoner performs a hundred of these "great works" in his
>> lifetime; you flunk the "Murder, She Wrote" test.
>
>Actually, speaking of murder she wrote, turn on the TV.
>
>Almost every drama on television is full of city based non-combat
>challenges. including Murder She Wrote (which, admittedly, is rarely
>on, but whatever). Almost every week americans watch people solve
>problems and face challenges, many of them pretty exceptional. Solve a
>mystery or 20 and see if you're not getting better at it. That's what
>gaining experience is. Or at least a parge part of it. And who is
>Columbo if not a high level expert. I'd hardley call him a rogue.

But he's not a commoner, which is the issue at hand. No police/detective
type would be. I don't think anyone wonders how aristocrats, experts and
(least of all) warriors get their levels. Commoners are the question mark.

 

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~consul <consul@INVALIDdolphins-cove.com> wrote:
> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> Regarding high-level commoners:
>>>It takes about 250 encounters for a PC to get to 20th level, so we ask
>>>ourselves, what kind of thing has Zeke faced 250 times? What sort of
>>>adventure does a Commoner have 5 times a year? Mostly, I think,
>>>problem solving type stuff, some wild animals, some bar fights, some
>>>bandits, some soldiering as a peasant levy ....
>> That's what /typical/ commoners do, but a 20th-level commoner is not
>> much like a typical 1st-level commoner, not much at all.
>
> Isn't there a level of difficulty as well in the assigning XP? Just like the
> 15th level fighter isn't going to get jack for killing the 5 rats, there will
> come a time when the Commoner tackleing that wasp infestation just doesn't
> matter enough.

Correct.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Bradd wrote:
>>In D&D, "various engineering disciplines" is Knowledge (Architecture &
>>Engineering). You're making the common mistake of assuming that it takes
>>several D&D skills to do one job.

Matt Frisch wrote:
> It's possible that they [pyramid-builders] would only have that skill
> as a relevant one, but I also find it likely that they would be fairly
> proficient stonemasons. There would likely be other skills that they
> would also possess to make the job easier.

Perhaps.

> Knowledge skills are not in the purview of commoners, however. In order to
> get a skill rank needed for pyramid design, they would need to be pretty
> high level in the first place.

Good point.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd