Where are all the science fiction-based RPGs?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Konrad Gaertner wrote:

> John Secker wrote:
>
>> But both are clearly, squarely inside the
>>Sci-Fi boundary. To reject Star Wars because it has psionics (which do
>>not violate any physical laws as we know them) but to allow Star Trek,
>>which has FTL travel (which does violate our physical laws) is crazy.
>
>
> Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
> FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.

Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
3x10^8.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

James Garvin <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> looked up from reading the
entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the signs
say:

>Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>
>> John Secker wrote:
>>
>>> But both are clearly, squarely inside the
>>>Sci-Fi boundary. To reject Star Wars because it has psionics (which do
>>>not violate any physical laws as we know them) but to allow Star Trek,
>>>which has FTL travel (which does violate our physical laws) is crazy.
>>
>>
>> Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
>> FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
>
>Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
>than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
>is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
>3x10^8.

But in the final analysis, what really is the difference between Star
Wars (or B5) going into hyperspace, and the Star Trek system of forming
a hyperspace-like warp bubble around the ship.

Both techniques allow them to sidestep around the normal universe's
Light Speed limit.

In the end it's rather like Steam vs Sail - one has to catch the winds,
the other carries it's propulsion with it.

Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:42640CBE.DBF5BB53@worldnet.att.net:

> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>>
>> Blabbus Blabbibicus <blabbus@talk.com> wrote in
>> news:qes561hevacph904793r2mku716b429nbc@4ax.com:
>>
>> > Star Control 2 wasn't a RPG at all. You could argue that Starflight
>> > was a RPG as it did have various crewmembers with stats that you could
>> > raise, but Star Control 2 was just about space exploration and ship
>> > upgrading.
>>
>> But if you are upgrading the ships stats, weapons, defenses, etc, how is
>> that different from upgrading your character's stats, weapons, defences?
>
> You usually aren't allowed to sell character stats back.

So it allows you more freedom in defining the "role" of your
ship/character.

> And SC2 had more freedom, story, and dialogue than you would get in
> a RPG.

Well, seeing as how I have never played it, I will take your word for it.
After all, no-one would lie on UseNet, would they??


--
Marcel
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"James Garvin" <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:L6idnVtwbI0Eh_nfRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
> Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>
> > John Secker wrote:
> >
> >> But both are clearly, squarely inside the
> >>Sci-Fi boundary. To reject Star Wars because it has psionics (which do
> >>not violate any physical laws as we know them) but to allow Star Trek,
> >>which has FTL travel (which does violate our physical laws) is crazy.
> >
> >
> > Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
> > FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
>
> Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
> than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
> is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
> 3x10^8.

Doesn't Warp actually warp space and time around the ship allowing it to do
pretty much the same thing?

(BTW, isn't warp transwarp drive by STTNG?)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"David Bilek" <dtbilek@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:cq2861dlgh96vqgb1qmug3oagmd50m9up3@4ax.com...

> Sentinel Worlds: Future Magic rocked.

Yes, it did. I think it would have been the first RPG I ever actually
finished but I think I recall hitting a bug that stopped me cold. I was
supposed to go somewhere and get something, but when I did I couldn't find
what I needed to move on.

I wish I had finished that game. I really liked my party ...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"James Garvin" <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NOWdnU6ClPsuY_7fRVn-gg@comcast.com...
> Blabbus Blabbibicus wrote:
> > You can call almost *any* FPS game a RPG, esp. today with them being
> > so detailed and complex, but why would you?? RPG and CRPG have
> > *always* or mostly meant P&P fantasy-based derivatives with detailed
> > stats of some sort beyond the usual health and ammo/equipment details.
>
> No. SS1 and SS2 had stats, but they were FPS. Is the MM series a FPS
> game or RPG? What about Gothic? RPGs don't have to be isometric to be
> an RPG

This is a bit unfair. He never really made any claim that simply looking at
something from the first person view would make it be an FPS instead of an
RPG, even if he might be off on Deus Ex (don't know, never played it).

>
> > Every game is a RPG in general. But specifically RPG denotes a
> > defined set of characteristics or genre.
>
> Oh god...not this AGAIN. No!
> RPGs have stats that change and effect your character. The games that
> have stats that have an effect on how well you shoot or how well you run
> or whatever are RPGs. It doesn't matter that it is in first person, you
> still have stats and character building.

Yeah, this again [grin].

Can you never improve the stats of a character in a more straight FPS? I
was sure you could do stuff like that in games like X-Comm or Space Crusade,
and those -- while not FPS' -- certainly weren't RPGs. And who says that
changing stats is what makes an RPG, anyway?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"John Secker" <john@secker.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:2th70WGEu+YCFwX7@secker.demon.co.uk...
> In message <69k761du3qe4kje19982hfger8b3ehbs7d@4ax.com>, Blabbus
> Blabbibicus <blabbus@talk.com> writes

> >It would be nice if someone could commen on/answer my original
> >question instead of attacking my choice of definition and terminology,
> >i.e. Where are all the science fiction-based RPGs?. Or, 'Why are
> >there so few of them?'
> We ARE answering your question. There are "so few" - in your opinion -
> because you have drawn the definitions of both Sci-fi and RPG so
> narrowly, so as to exclude things that everyone else regards as clearly
> inside the boundaries.

While his definition may be too narrow, it is a valid point to wonder if
some people aren't using definitions that are also too wide ...

Admittedly, for at least his ideas of a "good" sci-fi RPG, his definitions
would be the best for determining what he cares about [grin].

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Alex Mars" <alexmars@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113844356.312794.174200@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >But seriously, I *have* played Deus Ex and its a great game. I've
> >always considered it a FPS game though. It's not a RPG in the sense
> >of what I mean, i.e. a P&P derivative.
>
> >If you don't know what I mean when I say RPG in this newsgroup then
> >obviously you're trolling, bored, new to this newsgroup (i.e. less
> >than 6 years) or just plain dense.
>
> Basically you have a blindspot about using first person engines for
> RPGs.

In all fairness, he never claimed that at all.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <69k761du3qe4kje19982hfger8b3ehbs7d@4ax.com>, blabbus@talk.com
says...
>
>On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:42:09 +0100, John Secker
><john@secker.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>clip

>It would be nice if someone could commen on/answer my original
>question instead of attacking my choice of definition and terminology,
>i.e. Where are all the science fiction-based RPGs?. Or, 'Why are
>there so few of them?'

I suspect the decline in SciFi CRPGs can be blamed on all the game companies
being bought up by corporations. The corporations are controlled by accountants
that want to maximize profit. So they are all making clones of the popular
MMORP fantasy type games, and ignoring the niche markets that developed in the
days of small game companies.

It's not that the SCiFi games don't sell and make money, they just aren't the
mega sellers the accountants like.

--
Ken Rice -=:=- kennrice (AT) erols (DOT) com
http://users.erols.com/kennrice - Lego Compatible Flex Track,
Civil War Round Table of DC & Concentration Camp made of Lego bricks
http://members.tripod.com/~kennrice
Maps of Ultima 7 Parts 1 & 2, Prophecy of the Shadow, Savage Empire,
Crusaders of Dark Savant & Others.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <cq2861dlgh96vqgb1qmug3oagmd50m9up3@4ax.com>, dtbilek@comcast.net
says...

>no@email.ads (Ken Rice) wrote:
>>In article <8pd361ljuv8lt14gpnlq5jkgulpluqni6p@4ax.com>, blabbus@talk.com
>>says...

>clip

>Good list. Off the top of my head you don't have "Neuromancer" or
>"Circuit's Edge" on that list. Circuit's Edge was interesting; based
>on the world of _When Gravity Fails_ by George Alec Effinger. Also
>the KOTOR series, of course.

>Actually would Neuromancer be considered an RPG or an adventure game,
>today? I only recall it vaguely but it may have been a straight up
>adventure game.

>Sentinel Worlds: Future Magic rocked.

I do have Neuromancer, but have it listed as an adventure game. I suppose I
could post my list of SciFi adventure games and start the discussion all over
again, but there's a better newsgroup for that.

--
Ken Rice -=:=- kennrice (AT) erols (DOT) com
http://users.erols.com/kennrice - Lego Compatible Flex Track,
Civil War Round Table of DC & Concentration Camp made of Lego bricks
http://members.tripod.com/~kennrice
Maps of Ultima 7 Parts 1 & 2, Prophecy of the Shadow, Savage Empire,
Crusaders of Dark Savant & Others.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn wrote:
> In article <gqs561128g8rjpi73n1s0kr08d62cmuc4k@4ax.com>,
> blabbus@talk.com says...
>
>> P.S. Final Fantasy isn't science fiction *AT ALL*. Where in science
>> fiction can magic apply? The second you mix sci-fi with magic it
>> defaults to fantasy.
>
> There's a lot of cross-over where the magic is explained as, or half-
> explained as, or suggested as possiblying being, the remnants of
> ancient technology.

As a famous science-fiction author once wrote: "Any sufficiently advanced
technology is indistinguishable from magic."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Allan C Cybulskie wrote:

> "James Garvin" <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:L6idnVtwbI0Eh_nfRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
>
>>Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John Secker wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>But both are clearly, squarely inside the
>>>>Sci-Fi boundary. To reject Star Wars because it has psionics (which do
>>>>not violate any physical laws as we know them) but to allow Star Trek,
>>>>which has FTL travel (which does violate our physical laws) is crazy.
>>>
>>>
>>>Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
>>>FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
>>
>>Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
>>than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
>>is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
>>3x10^8.
>
>
> Doesn't Warp actually warp space and time around the ship allowing it to do
> pretty much the same thing?
>
> (BTW, isn't warp transwarp drive by STTNG?)

Wow...Welcome all geeks! ;-)

Kinda. Warp is a bubble around the ship that allows it to slide through
real space at FTL. Hyperspace is a dimension that you travel in...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"James Garvin" <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ye-dnZilB4-JD_nfRVn-iA@comcast.com...
> Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
>
> > "James Garvin" <jgarvin2004@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:L6idnVtwbI0Eh_nfRVn-3Q@comcast.com...
> >
> >>Konrad Gaertner wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>John Secker wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>But both are clearly, squarely inside the
> >>>>Sci-Fi boundary. To reject Star Wars because it has psionics (which do
> >>>>not violate any physical laws as we know them) but to allow Star Trek,
> >>>>which has FTL travel (which does violate our physical laws) is crazy.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
> >>>FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
> >>
> >>Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
> >>than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
> >>is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
> >>3x10^8.
> >
> >
> > Doesn't Warp actually warp space and time around the ship allowing it to
do
> > pretty much the same thing?
> >
> > (BTW, isn't warp transwarp drive by STTNG?)
>
> Wow...Welcome all geeks! ;-)

I only know about the transwarp drive thing because I read the book version
of "The Search for Spock" and they mention that the Excelsior was the first
ship to have it [grin].

>
> Kinda. Warp is a bubble around the ship that allows it to slide through
> real space at FTL. Hyperspace is a dimension that you travel in...

I'm pretty sure it does things with time as well, because of all of the
episodes in ST:TNG that talked about the impacts on the timestream from warp
drive leaks [grin].

 

[Shadows]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-04-18, David Bilek <dtbilek@comcast.net> wrote:

> Actually would Neuromancer be considered an RPG or an adventure game,
> today? I only recall it vaguely but it may have been a straight up
> adventure game.

More adventurish than RPG only because the developers eventually
gave you a ton of money and pointed you to the best deck,
skillchips, and constructs.

The ending was pretty bad and made practically no sense unless
you read the book.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <L6idnVtwbI0Eh_nfRVn-3Q@comcast.com>, jgarvin2004
@comcast.net says...
> Konrad Gaertner wrote:

> > Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
> > FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
>
> Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
> than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
> is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
> 3x10^8.

And how do you generate the momentum that moves you into this
dimension?

It's about as realistic as going back to breakfast time by throwing a
concrete block into Thursday!

- Gerry Quinn

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Blabbus Blabbibicus" <blabbus@talk.com> wrote in message
news4n761lsaiec228l1h1h31ierbfbiavd1m@4ax.com...
>
> Okay, I'm giving up on responding to all the arguments about what
> constitutes a science fiction-based RPG. Everyone has their opinions
> I suppose and I have no interest in changing them whatever they may
> be.
>
> Whatever your definitions of Sci-Fi or a RPG, it would be interesting
> if I'd get a respone as to why there are so few of them compared to
> the usual fantasy-based variety.
>
> Is it because RPGing started as a computer-based alternative to
> fantasy-bassed P&P gaming or is it just that sci-fi isn't as popular
> as fantasy?

I guess the recent lack of them might be down to game companies jumping on
bandwagons - the Bioware games and Diablo did pretty well compared to sci-fi
games like SS1/2 (talking about these in a general sense now, to avoid the
RPG/action stuff going on in the rest of the thread), so the people at the top
making the decisions are more likely to okay spending cash on fantasy games
rather than risking a sci-fi one.
There's enough of a Star Wars fanbase to make games like KOTOR big sellers, it
probably wouldn't have done nearly as well if it hadn't had the weight of the
license behind it.

About CRPGs coming from fantasy based P&P, was Megatraveller based on P&P, or
was it the other way around?

Rich

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

In article <NOWdnUmClPttY_7fRVn-gg@comcast.com>, jgarvin2004
@comcast.net says...
> Blabbus Blabbibicus wrote:

> > From the example you gave it seems you didn't. Baldur's Gate *is* a
> > RPG in the classic sense of the word. So bad example on your part I
> > guess.
>
> But if you took away the stats and character building what would it be?

Perhaps an RPG in a new and better sense?

- Gerry Quinn

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Allan C Cybulskie" <allan.c.cybulskie@yahoo.ca> writes:

> While his definition may be too narrow, it is a valid point to wonder if
> some people aren't using definitions that are also too wide ...

The real problem is that he keeps changing his definition of sci-fi in
order to refute someone, e.g. from

"I have always defined Science Fiction as a futuristic view of
humanity's (i.e. people on or from Earth) state of affairs as
influenced by the realistic applications and consequences of
science and technology as we may or may not know them today."

to

"There are no space ships, no aliens (Well, there's that spoof about
a crashed UFO), no otherworld colonies, no advanced technologies,
blah blah blah, you get the picture."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

"Tor Iver Wilhelmsen" <tor.iver.wilhelmsen@broadpark.no> wrote in message
news:u1x975hga.fsf@broadpark.no...
> "Allan C Cybulskie" <allan.c.cybulskie@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
> > While his definition may be too narrow, it is a valid point to wonder if
> > some people aren't using definitions that are also too wide ...
>
> The real problem is that he keeps changing his definition of sci-fi in
> order to refute someone, e.g. from
>
> "I have always defined Science Fiction as a futuristic view of
> humanity's (i.e. people on or from Earth) state of affairs as
> influenced by the realistic applications and consequences of
> science and technology as we may or may not know them today."
>
> to
>
> "There are no space ships, no aliens (Well, there's that spoof about
> a crashed UFO), no otherworld colonies, no advanced technologies,
> blah blah blah, you get the picture."

Didn't he say this in the same post, though? Hard to say he changed it in
that case, isn't it?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn wrote:

> In article <L6idnVtwbI0Eh_nfRVn-3Q@comcast.com>, jgarvin2004
> @comcast.net says...
>
>>Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>
>
>>>Right. Star Wars doesn't include any of that mystic mumbo-jumbo like
>>>FTL, telekenesis, or ghosts.
>>
>>Hyperspace isn't FTL travel. Hyperspace is a totally differant animal
>>than Warp Drives. The idea is that you move to another dimension that
>>is faster to travel in (for a variety of reasons) than moving around at
>>3x10^8.
>
>
> And how do you generate the momentum that moves you into this
> dimension?

For Warp there is a bubble that allows you to move faster. I is similar
to covering yourself in Crisco and jumping on a slip and slide.

In Hyperspace you create a localized hole in space and move through it.
It is like taking a sledge hammer and making a hole in dry way so
you can walk through. So you don't really need to be moving, you just
need a hole cutter of some kind. ;-)

> It's about as realistic as going back to breakfast time by throwing a
> concrete block into Thursday!

ROTFLMAO

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Gerry Quinn wrote:

> In article <NOWdnUmClPttY_7fRVn-gg@comcast.com>, jgarvin2004
> @comcast.net says...
>
>>Blabbus Blabbibicus wrote:
>
>
>>>From the example you gave it seems you didn't. Baldur's Gate *is* a
>>>RPG in the classic sense of the word. So bad example on your part I
>>>guess.
>>
>>But if you took away the stats and character building what would it be?
>
>
> Perhaps an RPG in a new and better sense?

Maybe, but you only have a story and mobs. I would be an
adventure/twitch game...

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 18 Apr 2005 19:54:32 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
<mbeaudoin@scintrextrace.com> wrote:


>Well, seeing as how I have never played it, I will take your word for it.
>After all, no-one would lie on UseNet, would they??

Well, go and download it now from http://sc2.sourceforge.net/
It's well worth a try, and the multi-platform remake seems pretty
bug-free to me. There's a reason many people have it on their personal
'Best games of all time' lists.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

Greg Johnson <greg.gsj@gmail.com> wrote in
news:2gn861hpjil29j73oh6d999periqaltf74@4ax.com:

> On 18 Apr 2005 19:54:32 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
> <mbeaudoin@scintrextrace.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Well, seeing as how I have never played it, I will take your word for
>>it. After all, no-one would lie on UseNet, would they??
>
> Well, go and download it now from http://sc2.sourceforge.net/
> It's well worth a try, and the multi-platform remake seems pretty
> bug-free to me. There's a reason many people have it on their personal
> 'Best games of all time' lists.

Cool!!! Thanks. Downloading and installing as I type.

--
Marcel and Moogli

 

[Shadows]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On 2005-04-19, Marcel Beaudoin <mbeauINVALID@Sympatic.INVALID.ca> wrote:
> Greg Johnson <greg.gsj@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:2gn861hpjil29j73oh6d999periqaltf74@4ax.com:
>
>> On 18 Apr 2005 19:54:32 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
>> <mbeaudoin@scintrextrace.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Well, seeing as how I have never played it, I will take your word for
>>>it. After all, no-one would lie on UseNet, would they??
>>
>> Well, go and download it now from http://sc2.sourceforge.net/
>> It's well worth a try, and the multi-platform remake seems pretty
>> bug-free to me. There's a reason many people have it on their personal
>> 'Best games of all time' lists.
>
> Cool!!! Thanks. Downloading and installing as I type.

How complete is this? The website mentions they're only missing
intro/out movies and "slideshows"

Is the game completely playable?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg (More info?)

On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:59:08 +1200, Peter Huebner <no.one@this.address>
wrote:

>In article <CIj8e.18131$H_5.9172@trnddc01>, no@email.ads says...
>[snipped list]
>
>Xenomorph. Looks a bit like DungeonMaster, may even use the same engine
>(slightly modified) and is one of the most exciting CRPG I have ever
>played. Hard to find, But I managed to download a PC version off the
>net some time the last couple of years.

I didn't know there was ever a PC version. The Amiga version was pretty
good for its time. I remember it articularly because it was the first
game I ever played that allowed movement with the cursor keys while
aiming elsewhere with the mouse; in other words, turn-based strafing.