X2 vs. HT??

[jmwpom3]

Ok,
I've read the reviews and such, but I'm just looking for opinions here. Does the X2 give the same advantage that Hyperthreading does??
Meaning: would that chip allow for playing say Doom3 or Far Cry while still doing some video encoding in the background without taking the frame hits?

I'm working on a gaming rig for a friend of mine. He want's a "gaming" system, but told me he also does some video/photo stuff as well. He's also wanting to go to possibly 3 or 4 monitors for this thing at some point. Doesn't that really lead me into the realm of an X2 system with SLI, or is there some better option I'm missing??

I was almost 100% sure on the AMD route until he started in with the video encoding and wanting to do that possibly with other things running. (games or whatever) i.e. one on one monitor one on the other.

Maybe some of you think this can be done with a AMD64 venice or P4 even??? He's moving up from a PIII 2.something GHZ and low end graphics so he'd notice huge difference even with either of those. But, he has been on newer rigs and seen some. Again, he seems to really want a good gaming rig, just with the ability to get the other stuff done well too.

ps, he's talking a $1500 budget (not including the monitors), so I'm not even sure on the feasability of the X2.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

<font color=blue> Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows. </font color=blue>

 

[fishmahn]

Does the X2 give the same advantage that Hyperthreading does??

More. HT just gives the impression of a second CPU. If the process on the 'main CPU' is capable of filling the execution pipeline, then the logical CPU is taking performance away from the main CPU. In dual core's case, there's physically a second CPU so no performance penalty for having that second thread running. It would take 0 frame hits while encoding in the background. A single core with HT will take frame hits while encoding in the background.

SLI isn't required for multi-monitors, and unless you want an 'ultimate gaming rig', IMO you can do better by saving a few bucks on the mobo, and putting all that into a single faster video card. Probably a good idea to get one with 2 x16 slots, like the DFI NF4 Ultra D so he can use a 2nd cheaper video card to get his extra monitors.

Even without HT, the P4 is usually a better video encoder, depending on the program he uses. So, the gaming side is definitely A64, editing is (IMO) a toss-up, and encoding probably P4. I'd look at the software he uses and find out if its P4-friendly or A64-friendly.

PIII 2.something GHZ

I hope you mean P4 2.something or PIII 1.something. :lol:

If its P4 and the .something is .66 or .8, then he may get a massive boost just by getting a graphics upgrade and not need a full system (what's his current graphics card?). Upgrading to a 3.6G P4 will be a good boost even then, but a 2.8 isn't a slouch.

If he thinks he'll be wanting to game while he's encoding, then dual core is (IMO) required. the PDEE is out of his budget (that, a mobo and ram and he's broke), so is the X2-4800+. I would put together the rest of the system, and see how much is leftover for the CPU. If you have $500+ leftover, then you have a choice between the P-D3.2Ghz and the X2-4200+, and I'd base that on how much encoding he does and if an extra 25% (give or take depending on his choice of software) of time while encoding is acceptable for better gaming performance.

If I was to do the encoding, I'd launch it when I went to bed, so it doesn't matter if it takes 2 hrs or 3 hrs - I'm still asleep when it's done, but other people work differenlty.

If he's not doing any gaming while encoding, then a single-core solution is acceptable, and if he does the encoding a lot, then P4 is his cpu. With speeds of 3.4+ ghz, its still a good performer for games (once fps goes much over 60, who cares if its +/-5fps? you won't notice), and encoding is going to fly with that CPU. Of course, that depends on his software again.

Mike.

<font color=blue>Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside the dog its too dark to read.
-- Groucho Marx</font color=blue>

 

[BePe86]

In mo opinion, if your friend really wants a dul-core, I would go for the X2 4400+.

As for mainboard, stick with a nf4 ultra with 2 pcie-16 slots, because if you buy sli, and connect two crads with two di-connectors each, you can't get 4 monitors working in sli-mode, you would have to change mode, restart, every time he wanted to change between gaming and working.

 

[jmwpom3]

I hope you mean P4 2.something or PIII 1.something.

... well he told me P3 2. something. I think he SAID 2.8, but I figured he was padding his clockspeed a little. I haven't looked at PIII's in a long time so I didn't really know what speeds are out there for it. My guess is he prolly has the PIII and is fudging the quote rather than having a P4 and miss quoting that. But, he's obviously no tech wizard. His words on the vid card were " I have the nvidia 64 graphics". He didn't know beyond that, and he 'thinks' it's pci and not agp, but it sounded like he thought that was the better of the two. So, yeah the vpu will definately give him the greates boost there, that's a given. But, he's got the $$ burning a whole in his pocket and wants the new system and the assembly experience.

The vibe I got from him was that he's looking for the games. The video is secondary and he's no pro; he couldn't even tell me the name of the program he uses. Basically, just taking clips from his camcorder and storing/editing/ them. He's really into wanting to have the really fine definition on the games.

So, I had figured on doing the X2 4200-4400 on an Nf4 board (polly SLI), with one vid card (X800 or N6800 range), 1-2 gig decent ram, 250G HDD, and a 500-600W psu if I can squeeze all that out for ~$1500. (I know that's pushing it) Then he can use the 2 DVI and add a second card later if he wants more monitors. If I go dual core it will be AMD. I was only really considering a P4 system if the HT will allow for the functionality at a lower $$$.

So the questions are:
What vid programs would greatly favor the intel side, and will the difference be extreme?
Is there a maybe a better way to do the multi-monitors? (different type card for that maybe)
Could an intel single core system get the multitasking done reasonably at a lower price?
Could an AMD64 system get the job done, even if not quite as well as the X2? (I really think the AMD way would allow the most upgradeability with the 939)

I guess I've just seen sooo much lately on the intel 'dominance' of the video encoding that I'm asking is the difference great enough to go intel for ONLY that reason? Especially if it's not the primary purpose of the system.
For budget reasons only I was trying to maybe avoid the dual core for now if his needs could be met that way. And if so, does the HT and DDR2 make it worth loosing the upgradability of the CPU on current MB's and possible SLI option?


*pls excuse the rambling.

<font color=blue> Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows. </font color=blue>

 

[flippin_waffles]

intel no longer dominates anything. there are countless reviews to support that statement.

<A HREF="http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410" target="_new">http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410</A>
<A HREF="http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMTcw" target="_new">http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMTcw</A>
<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentium-840.html" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentium-840.html</A>
<A HREF="http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/dualcore" target="_new">http://www.driverheaven.net/reviews/dualcore</A>
<A HREF="http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/pentium-d-820" target="_new">http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/pentium-d-820</A>
<A HREF="http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q2/athlon64-x2/index.x?pg=1" target="_new">http://techreport.com/reviews/2005q2/athlon64-x2/index.x?pg=1</A>
and against my better judgement, i'll even throw one in from THG.
<A HREF="http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050509/index.html" target="_new">http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/20050509/index.html</A>

i could make that list a mile long, and all show the same thing. intel doesn't have a leg to stand on. if it did, i'd gladly say so.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by flippin_waffles on 06/25/05 06:33 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[silverpig]

He doesn't need a video editing system then. He can do that editing on his old P3 (or P4... whatever he has) just fine.

The second core will be wasted on him until multi-threaded games come out, and even still he won't gain all that much most likely.

Save him some money and get this:

DFI Ultra-D $135
A64 3700+ San Diego $326
MSI X800XL $298
2x1GB Corsair ~$250

Add in a 74 GB raptor, and a 300 GB SATA drive, case, good PSU, and maybe have enough left over for a 2005FPW monitor.

s signature has been formatted to fit your scr

 

[jmwpom3]

well, I guess my attempt at a little subtle sarcasm there failed miserably.

I have gone through most of those articles, as I said in my original post. The ' marks around the word 'dominance' in that sentence where supposed to signal my use of other ppls words there. I'm very much in agreement that AMD is the way to go. I even said in the original post that I was going that direction until the video stuff came up. I also said that the Pentium D wouldn't even be on my list of possibilities.

Silverpig,,, while those are good reccommendations, I never said he'd have an "old" system to keep working on anything on. That one is going bye-bye. I've just seen so many intel fan-boys lately pushing that "it's all about the HT and intel still shines with the video encoding" (note the quotations) that I thought I'd at least give them a chance to sell me that <i> option </i> .

And, well, you're both still missing the heart of the question: for running video encoding AND maybe even gaming at the same time. So I'm not at all implying his games might benefit from it. But, might the benefit come in the form of being able to leave the video enc. going and still run a decent game at high def. If you're saying that Venice 3500+ or 3800+ could do that with no problem, then I can go on my merry way of ignoring intel all together. If not though, will the X2 solve that issue?

I'm aware that it seems to be the consensus that it would, but I was feeling a little misread there with those last two posts. That was my only toe-dip into the pool of Intel fanery. Just crossed my mind that if any of the hype was true on the HT I might be able to shave some cost with a HT'd 500 or 600 series prescott setup. That was all just because I'm putting together a system for his needs, not mine. I've never tried playing Half-Life 2 on my 3500 and keeping anything of substance running along side. The P4's I use are at work with onboard grapics *shivers* , so I can't wouldn't even try to run the game there.


<font color=red> .................................. </font color=red> News Flash <font color=red> .........................................
</font color=red> AMD fanboy gets flamed by ohter AMD fanboy's for asking the forbidden "would a P4 work better" question <font color=red> ...........................................................
.... </font color=red> fanboy withdraws question and bows to the all MIGHTY beaches that are AMD's 90 nm process <font color=green> ...... </font color=green>


-damn if I ain't f@#$ing wordy this weekend. I can't seem to get a post off in less than 12 pages. Sorry :_(
PARTY ON

<font color=blue> Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows. </font color=blue>

 

[Crashman]

The performance of today's high end processors is so good that any of them will do. But AMD does their tricks while producing roughly half the heat!

<font color=blue>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to a hero as big as Crashman!</font color=blue>
<font color=red>Only a place as big as the internet could be home to an ego as large as Crashman's!</font color=red>

 

[flippin_waffles]

my intent with those links was to show the benefits of multicore over hyperthreading while gaming and running another task, such as your friend is wishing, as well as any multitasking senario. i think those reviews show that, so i guess i'm not really clear on what it is you would like to have information on. if you want to compare a single core A64 and a hyperthreaded P4, then the P4 would prevail in the second task as it is able to give priority to it, at the expense of the primary task. i doubt if the A64 would get any work done on the second app at all actually, and at the same time, the game would suffer greatly on the P4. hopefully that clarifies it a bit, if not, please advise.

 

[z2895]

I second silverpig's post with one modification, drop the raptor as it is a waste of money, the new 300GB 8MB drives outpace it or at least be very close in game loading performance (the new seagate 160gb/platter drives will) a few anandtech articles will back this up.

 

[endyen]

What Crash says is about it. I would also add that the "encoding" your friend does, will have little impact, as the time taken will still fall within a normal gaming session. (which may explain where I've been for the last 30 hrs)

 

[liquidpaper007]

I second silverpig's post with one modification, drop the raptor as it is a waste of money, the new 300GB 8MB drives outpace it or at least be very close in game loading performance (the new seagate 160gb/platter drives will) a few anandtech articles will back this up.

I do not know about frames, but my computer boots in 28 seconds.

 

[endyen]

I do not know about frames, but my computer boots in 28 seconds.

Sorry, dumping some of the crud from your start memu should help.

 

[jmwpom3]

Thanks, and that basically answers what I was getting at.

this whole thing started with, he wants a gaming system..AMD. Then he mentioned the other crap and I was just trying to weigh other options; P4, X2, etc. to fill that need.

Probably going 3500+ Venice, DFI lanparty MB, 2x 1g ram, 550w psu atx2, 6800ultra, plextor dl dvd burner---

which leaves $125 or so for HDD,,, he wants at least 250 GB there. I've seen a few, a WD and a Hitachi, but anyone has the sweet deal there, I'd listen.

Then I just told him if he really wants the X2 he can either squeeze out the extra $$ or wait 'n upgrade.

<font color=blue> Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows. </font color=blue>

 

[Zoron]

The difference is so small, it's almost negligible. Consider the 500GB Hitachi 7K500... it's got a beefy 16MB cache. It is the fastest 7200RPM drive out there now... and comes very close to the Raptor's performance. For the price you pay for that 74GBs... it just doesn't make sense anymore.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>