AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[cdrkf]

When Valve launched Steam digital distribution platform back in 2004 it was met with derision, but ten years latter Steam is considered the coolest kid in the game universe.

Because the original Steam sucked and only did Valve only games. They opened it up, and fixed it.

And again, you miss the entire point of the lack of alternative OS users/games, which was the point I was attempting to make. There is simply not enough people willing to use it to justify Steam OS. Period.

I think your missing the point of Steam OS. It isn't going to change anything quickly- however I think it's a long term play. The whole problem of pushing any new platform against entrenched incumbents is you need the platform in place before you can get software, but you need software on the platform to justify developing it.

Valve have the time and money to keep plugging away at Steam OS, keep porting games to it and generally push that front for a prolonged period. This kind of approach can work wonders, I would also note that I think Steam OS may have had at least some hand in pushing the decision to break backward compatibility with OGL-N. Without a fully leaded modern API Linux gaming is always going to be a 2nd class citizen. I've been following the development of Planetary Annihilation which is one of the few large scale games to be made with Linux in mind from the start and it does run well, however the devs have had to make a number of sacrifices in order to support it.

I'm not suggesting that Steam OS is going to dominate the market any time soon, however I could see it taking a steadily larger slice of the *enthusiast gaming market* as things move forward.

 

[h2323]

Anyone knows if AMD canceling desktop Carrizo is related to Intel canceling celeron/pentium/i3 Broadwell?

Did they cancelled Carrizo seriously?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/35337-rumour-amd-carizzo-will-be-mobile-only

key word..."rumour"

 

[juanrga]

Anyone knows if AMD canceling desktop Carrizo is related to Intel canceling celeron/pentium/i3 Broadwell?

Did they cancelled Carrizo seriously?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/35337-rumour-amd-carizzo-will-be-mobile-only

key word..."rumour"

It is more than a rumour...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/352312-28-steamroller-speculation-expert-conjecture/page-317#14184821

 

[blackkstar]

Well, steamOS is geared as a "console like" OS for people who want a "console like" gaming PC.

That is the issue, they currently do not have the full functionality for the controller in place. Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes around. More OEMs may get behind it than what are currently signed up...which will drive install base numbers.

SteamOS's big problem right now is that it is designed to make an easier to use and more convenient way to use your computer for games yet it requires dual booting, which is generally not something that is easy or convenient to set up.

I would wager that most users who are interested in alternate OSes to Windows and OSX are already using Linux already. At that point it becomes yet another Debian distribution.

When we see special hardware for SteamOS come out and getting SteamOS becomes a matter of convenience of simply buying something that has SteamOS already on it, it has potential to pick up steam (haha a pun).

The benefit for SteamOS is that it will allow OEMs to make Steamboxes in bulk, which means lower price. And they can skirt a Windows license completely in the price. If they want to dual boot later they can. Although Windows boot loader is very rude and will wipe out what you have without asking you anything.

 

[jdwii]

Well, steamOS is geared as a "console like" OS for people who want a "console like" gaming PC.

That is the issue, they currently do not have the full functionality for the controller in place. Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes around. More OEMs may get behind it than what are currently signed up...which will drive install base numbers.

SteamOS's big problem right now is that it is designed to make an easier to use and more convenient way to use your computer for games yet it requires dual booting, which is generally not something that is easy or convenient to set up.

I would wager that most users who are interested in alternate OSes to Windows and OSX are already using Linux already. At that point it becomes yet another Debian distribution.

When we see special hardware for SteamOS come out and getting SteamOS becomes a matter of convenience of simply buying something that has SteamOS already on it, it has potential to pick up steam (haha a pun).

The benefit for SteamOS is that it will allow OEMs to make Steamboxes in bulk, which means lower price. And they can skirt a Windows license completely in the price. If they want to dual boot later they can. Although Windows boot loader is very rude and will wipe out what you have without asking you anything.

Benchmarks and games that is all i need to use it. If i can get more performance then i'm in. Heck even if they can just get the games i bet many are in since windows cost money, i have free versions from my job and college. I just want to see Microsoft pushed and so far its not happening. When Microsoft made the xbox in 2001 they pushed PC gaming aside. Now its been 13 years and PC gaming just beat console software sales and Steam is the main reason for that they have the fans they just need the games and not indie games big AAA games.

 

[8350rocks]

LOL!!! juan, you linking people to this thread to "prove" something is more than a rumor is hilarious!!!

 

[8350rocks]

Well, steamOS is geared as a "console like" OS for people who want a "console like" gaming PC.

That is the issue, they currently do not have the full functionality for the controller in place. Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes around. More OEMs may get behind it than what are currently signed up...which will drive install base numbers.

SteamOS's big problem right now is that it is designed to make an easier to use and more convenient way to use your computer for games yet it requires dual booting, which is generally not something that is easy or convenient to set up.

I would wager that most users who are interested in alternate OSes to Windows and OSX are already using Linux already. At that point it becomes yet another Debian distribution.

When we see special hardware for SteamOS come out and getting SteamOS becomes a matter of convenience of simply buying something that has SteamOS already on it, it has potential to pick up steam (haha a pun).

The benefit for SteamOS is that it will allow OEMs to make Steamboxes in bulk, which means lower price. And they can skirt a Windows license completely in the price. If they want to dual boot later they can. Although Windows boot loader is very rude and will wipe out what you have without asking you anything.

Yes, indeed, GRUB is so much better...

I find it completely asinine my linux install can read anything on my windows drive, meanwhile my windows install is entirely convinced it is "alone"...

 

[Cazalan]

The benefit for SteamOS is that it will allow OEMs to make Steamboxes in bulk, which means lower price. And they can skirt a Windows license completely in the price. If they want to dual boot later they can. Although Windows boot loader is very rude and will wipe out what you have without asking you anything.

Exactly. SteamOS looks 10x better as a line item than "No OS", which is how most NUC/SFF type devices come.

 

[Cazalan]

LOL!!! juan, you linking people to this thread to "prove" something is more than a rumor is hilarious!!!

The mobile only speculation began as soon as the TDP was listed at 65W.

 

[palladin9479]

Well, steamOS is geared as a "console like" OS for people who want a "console like" gaming PC.

That is the issue, they currently do not have the full functionality for the controller in place. Will be interesting to see what happens when that comes around. More OEMs may get behind it than what are currently signed up...which will drive install base numbers.

SteamOS's big problem right now is that it is designed to make an easier to use and more convenient way to use your computer for games yet it requires dual booting, which is generally not something that is easy or convenient to set up.

I would wager that most users who are interested in alternate OSes to Windows and OSX are already using Linux already. At that point it becomes yet another Debian distribution.

When we see special hardware for SteamOS come out and getting SteamOS becomes a matter of convenience of simply buying something that has SteamOS already on it, it has potential to pick up steam (haha a pun).

The benefit for SteamOS is that it will allow OEMs to make Steamboxes in bulk, which means lower price. And they can skirt a Windows license completely in the price. If they want to dual boot later they can. Although Windows boot loader is very rude and will wipe out what you have without asking you anything.

Yes, indeed, GRUB is so much better...

I find it completely asinine my linux install can read anything on my windows drive, meanwhile my windows install is entirely convinced it is "alone"...

That's because your enabling that feature on your Linux OS while ignoring it on your Windows one.

http://www.diskinternals.com/linux-reader/

There are more permanent solutions that involve inserting a file system driver into Windows to enable it to understand the foreign ext/reiser/jfs file systems.

The reason for this, and the same reason why reading/writing to NTFS is considered experimental in Linux, is that these are non-native file systems and as such there may be nuances the system didn't take into consideration which could result in data corruption.

 

[palladin9479]

Now for the whole Windows vs non-Windows (linux) debate. Guys Linux is not an OS, it's a kernel. It's everything that wraps around it that makes that particular distribution an OS which creates all sorts of hell for systems engineers like myself when we are trying to design a product. Making your product standards compliant for distribution A does not mean it's standards compliant for distribution B, you can't even be sure configuration files, non-system binaries and services are handled the same way between distributions. One system might prefer to store it's non-system stuff under /opt, while another is using the nefariously lazy /usr/local (I REALLY hate programs that install here). One may prefer to use /etc for everything while another wants non-system stuff in /opt/etc. Some mount the cdrom under /media, while others as /media/cdrom or /mnt or just plain /cdrom. And that's without getting into the graphics and media libraries mess (OSS/PulseAudio/SDL/ALSA/ect..).

It turns into a giant headache when trying to come up with an architecture because you can't many any assumptions about your target platform and need to go around and make absolutely sure every little thing is checking itself because you can't even be sure of future compatibility. This is the largest contribution Red Hat has made to the industry, its created a single set of platform standards and assumptions for everyone to use when building systems. This has greatly enabled the spread of Linux into the enterprise world, it's still not on the same level of platform standardization as MS Windows but it's close enough to accomplish many things.

In the consumer world it's a very similar situation. Games are highly tuned for performance due to their demanding nature. We all see what happens when a developer releases a product on PC without first tuning it for that platform, we get those sh1tty console ports. This isn't any different for a Linux platform vs a Windows platform, especially as both have radically different graphics / media APIs. A game tuned for the Windows platform using the DirectX suite of libraries wouldn't do so well if directly ported to Linux, even assuming you could somehow get those libraries to magically work without wrappers / rewriting. That's why Valve created their own platform, SteamOS, it's interesting they chose Debian but I can see why with all the easy to access consumer software. As long as valve is willing to certify vender drivers and hardware on their platform them it has a chance at being a viable competitor in the market. I haven't had a chance to play with it, but I wonder how standardized it is, Android was "linux" based and yet google changed the platform so much that it hardly resembled linux when they got done.

 

[wh3resmycar]

well if valve will somehow manage to port all your libraries to steamOS making them playable then i'm sold. but right now there's only a handful of triple A title with linux support (witcher2, civ5, metro redux).

come back with that argument once you're actually paying/playing for linux games, don't preach like it's the next best thing since sliced bread because it isn't.

and i don't think people here are actually playing videogames, i mean with the amount of time you guys spend formulating arguments and counter-arguments, i don't think that'll fit in a 24hour day.

 

[juanrga]

Linux is a OS. Originally (in the prehistory ;-) Linux was only the kernel, but the usage of terms have morphed over time and today (21st century) we define Linux as a OS and use the term "Linux kernel" for the kernel

https://www.linux.com/learn/new-user-guides/376-linux-is-everywhere-an-overview-of-the-linux-operating-system

http://operationstech.about.com/od/glossary/g/glsLinux.htm

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/linux

http://www.linfo.org/linuxdef.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/L/linux_os.html

http://searchenterpriselinux.techtarget.com/definition/Linux

http://www.top500.org/statistics/details/osfam/1

http://www-03.ibm.com/linux/systems.html

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/Linux

http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/46162/linux

 

[juanrga]

The mobile only speculation began as soon as the TDP was listed at 65W.

65W is not a mobile TDP.

The original 65W Carrizo APU appearing in early roadmaps was for desktops, as also confirm the official docs. Apparently AMD canceling it is related to Intel canceling part of Broadwell desktop, which gives AMD room to release a Kaveri on steroids in its place.

 

[gamerk316]

well if valve will somehow manage to port all your libraries to steamOS making them playable then i'm sold. but right now there's only a handful of triple A title with linux support (witcher2, civ5, metro redux).

And most of those took the easy route and simply implemented a D3D to OGL wrapper, same as Valve, rather then re-coding the game from scratch. At that point, you may as well just use WINE, since it would probably end up being just as fast and more stable to boot.

Which goes to show, even in porting games, devs REALLY want to avoid re-writing the graphics engine. Which is a major long-term problem for Linux gaming in general.

 

[8350rocks]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

 

[gamerk316]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

Except Mantle only works for AMD, so you'd still need to do some sort of conversion to maintain compatibility with 80% of all users.

As for OGLNG, it's likely DOA in gaming since most next-gen engines are already DX based, and DX12 will hit first. Would have been interesting had it been a year or two earlier though...

 

[h2323]

Anyone knows if AMD canceling desktop Carrizo is related to Intel canceling celeron/pentium/i3 Broadwell?

Did they cancelled Carrizo seriously?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/35337-rumour-amd-carizzo-will-be-mobile-only

key word..."rumour"

It is more than a rumour...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/352312-28-steamroller-speculation-expert-conjecture/page-317#14184821

I hope you're kidding, that link is a joke. You are not a source Juan, just a poster with an opinion like everyone else.

 

[juanrga]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

Except Mantle only works for AMD, so you'd still need to do some sort of conversion to maintain compatibility with 80% of all users.

As for OGLNG, it's likely DOA in gaming since most next-gen engines are already DX based, and DX12 will hit first. Would have been interesting had it been a year or two earlier though...

DX12 will only work on Windows platform, which is currently a minority OS. OGL-Next will be needed for gaming in majority platforms.

 

[juanrga]

Anyone knows if AMD canceling desktop Carrizo is related to Intel canceling celeron/pentium/i3 Broadwell?

Did they cancelled Carrizo seriously?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/35337-rumour-amd-carizzo-will-be-mobile-only

key word..."rumour"

It is more than a rumour...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/352312-28-steamroller-speculation-expert-conjecture/page-317#14184821

I hope you're kidding, that link is a joke. You are not a source Juan, just a poster with an opinion like everyone else.

That link means that some time ago I asked one of my sources and he confirmed that Carrizo is only for mobile and that Kaveri DT will received a refresh a la Richland. I trust him. You can believe me or not, I don't care.

 

[gamerk316]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

Except Mantle only works for AMD, so you'd still need to do some sort of conversion to maintain compatibility with 80% of all users.

As for OGLNG, it's likely DOA in gaming since most next-gen engines are already DX based, and DX12 will hit first. Would have been interesting had it been a year or two earlier though...

DX12 will only work on Windows platform, which is currently a minority OS. OGL-Next will be needed for gaming in majority platforms.

Just like OGL is used now. Games target Windows, first and foremost. I wouldn't be shocked if OGL 4 hangs around for years, even after OGL NG comes around.

 

[jdwii]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

Except Mantle only works for AMD, so you'd still need to do some sort of conversion to maintain compatibility with 80% of all users.

As for OGLNG, it's likely DOA in gaming since most next-gen engines are already DX based, and DX12 will hit first. Would have been interesting had it been a year or two earlier though...

DX12 will only work on Windows platform, which is currently a minority OS for everything besides desktops and laptops and basically anything that has to do with real gaming. OGL-Next will be needed for gaming in majority platforms outside of laptops and desktops.

Sorry juan you had an issue i fixed it- Also i hope you are not talking about console gaming being the majority, PC software sales beat it so yeah

 

[jdwii]

Unless OGLNG takes off...or mantle ports to linux as stated. At that point graphics engines are no longer an issue. Download your branch mantle drivers and go.

Except Mantle only works for AMD, so you'd still need to do some sort of conversion to maintain compatibility with 80% of all users.

As for OGLNG, it's likely DOA in gaming since most next-gen engines are already DX based, and DX12 will hit first. Would have been interesting had it been a year or two earlier though...

DX12 will only work on Windows platform, which is currently a minority OS. OGL-Next will be needed for gaming in majority platforms.

Just like OGL is used now. Games target Windows, first and foremost. I wouldn't be shocked if OGL 4 hangs around for years, even after OGL NG comes around.

What is OpenGl? No but really i never understood the fanboy hate on windows was always something i thought was funny(since the GUI is so easy to use OUT OF THE BOX). I would never pay for linux if it wasn't free except for enterprise work or if someone else heavily modified the OS like android or perhaps one day steam os but those are free anyways.
I used 3 major versions of linux(Ubuntu-Fedora-Mint) I ran countless benchmarks and i found little to no difference in performance and stability was a joke even compared to Vista. This was using my Llano laptop and my 8350FX+770GTX and my 1100T+6950HD and a pentium 4 with VIA graphics that would not work on anything but XP-W7.
I think linux for the desktop and laptop market is nothing but a nerd platform and that is ok i even heard a lot of my linux fanboy's claim they don't want it to get big its like they want to feel special for using it or something. I have to admit at the end of the day its still good enough for multimedia purposes if its stable with XBMC.

 

[h2323]

Anyone knows if AMD canceling desktop Carrizo is related to Intel canceling celeron/pentium/i3 Broadwell?

Did they cancelled Carrizo seriously?

http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/35337-rumour-amd-carizzo-will-be-mobile-only

key word..."rumour"

It is more than a rumour...

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/352312-28-steamroller-speculation-expert-conjecture/page-317#14184821

I hope you're kidding, that link is a joke. You are not a source Juan, just a poster with an opinion like everyone else.

That link means that some time ago I asked one of my sources and he confirmed that Carrizo is only for mobile and that Kaveri DT will received a refresh a la Richland. I trust him. You can believe me or not, I don't care.

ahhhh your source okay......

 

[8350rocks]

@juan

There is a codename you are missing...curious, considering you have been spewing them otherwise...

Wondering why you have no information on that internal codename with such a reliable source.