Question Electrical issues ?

[ragez0r]

so should i earth the 3rd prong of the ups ?? can you give any further measure that i can take to protect this pc and its storage ? i kinda need this for 2 valid reasons.. 1 this PC was paid for by the government of Canada and i asked them to spring for an apu so that i may game on it, whichg is advised by my psychiatrist to stem off nasty PTSD thoughts, im not here to spell out my entire life but i did serve the military of earths mightiest country Canada and if you doubt that, feel free to debate me in a private message.

and did i understand you correctly ? that if and when i receive the gaming laptop that i shouldnt connect it to the UPS ??? even though you saw that it claims to be 390 watts ???and the MSI gaming laptop is entirely of my own funding.. my hard earned money

 

[ragez0r]

Although I understand you prefer to keep things cool, 50C is a long way below the maximum temperature rating of your A8-7680. Looking up the specs for the APU, I discovered the maximum case temperature allowed is 74C. Due to thermal resistance of the heat path from the IHS "the metal lid on top of the APU) and the silicon chip inside , the actual temperature of the APU chip could reach 90C during stress testing with Prime95, from what I've read in other forums.

CPUs and APUs include thermal protection which kicks in when the Silicon chip reaches a critical temperature specified by the manufacturer. The motherboard automatically reduces the Voltage fed to the chip to prevent it from overheating and the system continues to run. At 50C your APU is just cruising gently down the highway at a slow speed. It's nowhere near its limit and could get much hotter without suffering any damage.

As an example of temperature limits, my old AMD Phenom II X4 965 has an upper working limit of 60C, which is very low by today's standards. My new AMD 7950X has a working limit of 95C. More recent Intel CPUs e.g. 13900 have a working limit of 100C (boiling point of water). With adequate cooling, you can run these CPUs at the limit for hours on end, with no ill effects, apart from increased electricity bills. If they hit maximum temperature, they thermally throttle.

If you tidy up your computer and fit it in a metal case, you can always leave the side panel off, if the internal case fans prove inadequate at keeping the APU down to your comfortable limit. Remember though your APU could run quite happily with no ill effects at 70C (or even higher), instead of 50C.


Unfortunately this is not true. "Faulty power" will find the shortest path down to ground. If that path includes your body, you'll get an electric shock which could be fatal.

Current normally flows into your equipment from the Line terminal on the wall outlet and returns via the Neutral terminal back to the power station.


Diodes are not used in AC supplies. In Alternating Current systems, the current (and voltage) reverse 50 or 60 times each second (for 50Hz and 60Hz mains). If you insert a diode into an AC circuit, you block half of each complete cycle and turn the supply into DC.


"Naughty electricity" will not follow the correct route and return along the Neutral wire, back to the local electricity company's sub-station. Instead it will seek the path(s) of lowest resistance down to earth. These paths could include SATA cables, USB leads, HDMI monitor cables, OR YOUR BODY.

As already mentioned, ATX PSUs are designed for use with a good mains earth. People living in countries where house and office wiring "Codes of Practice" do not include a safety earth connection to each wall outlet, are faced with a dilemma. Do they risk their life using the ATX PSU on a 2-pin supply? Most people don't know or don't care, until they drop dead and it's too late.

If you connect an ATX PSU to a 2-pin wall outlet, all metalwork in the computer will be electrically "floating", i.e. not grounded. If a fault develops in the ATX PSU and the AC Line input touches the PSU metalwork, the whole computer becomes live, i.e. sitting at 120V or 230V AC.

If you come into contact with the Line side of the mains supply and a current of more than 20mA flows through your heart, you're probably going to die. At the very least, you'll get a nasty shock. I can tell you from experience, a very short duration 240V AC shock is painful.

The buzzing you feel when touching various metal parts of your computer means you don't have a good safety earth. I don't think your wire up to the metal beam is good enough. For this reason, a laptop with a power brick designed for connection to a 2-pin AC supply will be much, much, safer.

Just to repeat, an ATX PSU connected to a 2-pin supply is not safe, if a serious fault develops inside the PSU. The circuit breaker might not trip, the fuse might not blow, but instead you might get a fatal shock.

As Dirty Harry said, "Do you feel lucky?"

P.S. It might never happen and you could live to 110.

P.P.S.

I wouldn't bother. It's just compounding the rat's nest of dodgy wiring and could make things even less safe.

oh oh.. Clint Eastwood, i remember him.. you left out "punk".. and although the computer components are within arms reach.. i seldom touch it anymore the ups is i dunno.. 15-20 cm from my left shoulder, am i looking at an electrical arc reaching me ?
and i am fortunate not to have anty rats in my new apt, im cautious about that and if it wasnt visible the cable goes from the rear of my ups upwards to the metal beam where i scratched off some paint to make contact with the metallic surface and the exposed copper of that black cable (regular extention cable that i snipped off both ends to give you an idea of the gauge that i use) , feel free to re-watch the video that i posted, its a none issue to do the exact same thing with the 3rd prong of the ups plug.. i mean.. just a ups but if i can protect it, why not ????the ups is kind of the only thing between the electricity of the local power provider (leyeco in case that helps) and my sweet pc "insert affectionate female pc nickname here"

thank you for sticking to this thread for as long as you already have, it really helps

soo does it have to be an actual pc case ? can i use a flat open platform as ive seen used by that Vancouver guy Linus on Linus tech tips ?

 

[ragez0r]

hows this ??? holds the mobo on a metal tray

open design

Allan CPU Caseless Tray For Motherboard with Video Card Holder

 

[Misgar]

But does this caseless tray hold the ATX PSU and hard disks too? The beauty of a computer case is that all metal parts are connected together, i.e. mobo mounting hole pads, PSU, HDD, DVD, etc. If the case is big enough, you can fit all four hard disks inside. My Lian Li V2000 case holds 12 hard disks.

Regardless of whether or not you tidy up your PC system, it's far more important to obtain a good safety earth (using "thick" wire), so you no longer feel a "buzz" when touching metal parts. Until then, you risk electric shock, if a serious fault occurs.

 

[Misgar]

am i looking at an electrical arc reaching me ?

No. You need roughly 30kV to jump 1cm in dry air, so 20cm separation requires 600kV and 30cm 900kV. The highest voltage you'll find inside an ATX PSU is 340V DC, for a 240V AC input.

For a really long arc, e.g. lightning in a thunderstorm, you're looking at many MV.

When I say "electric shock", I mean touching exposed metalwork or components at mains potential, which exceeds the SELV (Safety Extra-Low Voltage) limit of 50V AC. Below 50V AC it's considered "safe", although safe is a relative term, open to interpretation by some people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage

regular extention cable that i snipped off both ends

Although this extension wire might not be sufficient to carry a fault current of 20 to 30A down to ground for a few seconds (enough time to trip a breaker or blow a fuse), the fact you feel a "buzz" when touching metal parts on your motherboard means you still don't have a good earth.

i am fortunate not to have anty rats in my new apt

See link below for meaning of "rat's nest". It's an idiom used to describe clutter.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+rat's+nest

Old saying "You're never more than 6 feet away from a rat."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20716625

you left out "punk"..

I left that out deliberately, so as not to offend any delicate souls reading this thread. I remember watching the first Dirty Harry film in a cinema when it came out in 1971.

 

[ragez0r]

But does this caseless tray hold the ATX PSU and hard disks too? The beauty of a computer case is that all metal parts are connected together, i.e. mobo mounting hole pads, PSU, HDD, DVD, etc. If the case is big enough, you can fit all four hard disks inside. My Lian Li V2000 case holds 12 hard disks.

Regardless of whether or not you tidy up your PC system, it's far more important to obtain a good safety earth (using "thick" wire), so you no longer feel a "buzz" when touching metal parts. Until then, you risk electric shock, if a serious fault occurs.

the 5 hdd that i have are all connected to an ORICO 5hdd to usb dock... the dock has its own power supply that is oddly shaped like a laptop power brick i wanted to ask if bad electricity can travel through the data cables to the well... rear of the hdd dock .. and usually the 5hdd dock is connected to the rear of the ups ever since i veryfied that it can handle 390watts peak ... i kinda gave up powering the UPS via the dc to ac inverter, kinda got fed up with all the beeping tbh,, at this time the power feeding into the ups is a landline power.. but i did hoop a ring terminal around the ground prong and that is connected to an appliance sized cable and that snakes up to a scratched portion of the metal beam in my apt.... so at this moment i have 2 cables going to that beam.. 1 from the ground prong of the PSU.. and 1 from the ground prong of the UPS.. extra security... as if im going into the octagon with our legend GSP (george st-Pierre) so im kinda putting 2 cups around my happy zone,, that's a nice way to put it... anyone else getting sick of all these acronyms ? ups, psu, gsp, omgkmn ok i made the last one up...

 

[ragez0r]

No. You need roughly 30kV to jump 1cm in dry air, so 20cm separation requires 600kV and 30cm 900kV. The highest voltage you'll find inside an ATX PSU is 340V DC, for a 240V AC input.

For a really long arc, e.g. lightning in a thunderstorm, you're looking at many MV.

im aware that the voltage in the Philippines goes up and down, but shouldnt the UPS take care of that ??? if the voltage is to high, im assuming it gets filtered out .. and if too low, the UPS taps into the battery..... sorry i never had the need for a UPS as i pretty much lived on hydro Quebec for the majority of my life and a power outage is as likely as New kids on the block making a return to the music industry,

When I say "electric shock", I mean touching exposed metalwork or components at mains potential, which exceeds the SELV (Safety Extra-Low Voltage) limit of 50V AC. Below 50V AC it's considered "safe", although safe is a relative term, open to interpretation by some people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage

since moving to this new appartment, ive felt no buzzing on any computer components, except for the alligator clip connected to the 2nd ups battery, and the monitor flicks off now and then, but that could be damage from the last apt crappy wiring, OR the inverter that claims to be 500 watts isnt 500 watts and the PC temporarily shut off the display port for a second... but i kinda took a step further and added a cable from the power going into the UPS (the grounding prong naturally) to the beam inside my apt... but since you said that my pc could kill me, im reluctant to touch it now

Although this extension wire might not be sufficient to carry a fault current of 20 to 30A down to ground for a few seconds (enough time to trip a breaker or blow a fuse), the fact you feel a "buzz" when touching metal parts on your motherboard means you still don't have a good earth.

true, however these same cables can handle powering a CRT television for lengthy amounts of human vegetation (good ol days) and correct me if im wrong its the same cable make up and thickness... and a 25 inch tv pulls maybe 150 watts per hour, .. so am i to understand that a power surge can exceed 150 watts ??? i mean yes i understand lightning strikes can be in the thousands of volts, wouldnt the cable just overheat and melt ? and hopefully the breaker will just pop or jump... i dint really look on the roof for a lighning rod, i dont think its common in this country...
heck even my mini ovenback home took 1000 watts or more and the cable thickness is identical, just shorter,

See link below for meaning of "rat's nest". It's an idiom used to describe clutter.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+rat's+nest

thank you for understanding that Quebec idioms are far far differrent then wherever it is you call home...

Old saying "You're never more than 6 feet away from a rat."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20716625

im fully aware, whenever i have a f a g outside at night i see them running around.. and i dont mean f-a-g in a bad way,, im just fond of British terminology.

I left that out deliberately, so as not to offend any delicate souls reading this thread. I remember watching the first Dirty Harry film in a cinema when it came out in 1971.

careful, you are giving away your age
i grew up with stallone, Shwartzanegger, norris, Seagal, Van Damme, that was MY generation, great childhood, mind you the Quebec brainwashing was nasty

PS
additional question ,, somewhat on topic.. if i was to power pump the 2 batteries that i have connected in parallel.. with a beefy rapid charger.. lets say 50 amps.. that is i dunno 600 watts all the time... , get a VERIFIED 1000 watt DC to AC inverter and just use everything via the inverter, im not certain what happens to the local electricity when it sinks into a SLA (well my 2 batteries say gel on them) but is that power more stable than using a wall outlet ??? no static, no voltage fluctuations, of course i will only use the batteries and inverter for sensitive equipment.. and YES a sine wave or modified sine wave inverter, i don't know the difference, but the word SINE is in it.. also my UPS avr claims to be sine wave.. wouldnt that kind of feng shui the proper type of electricity into the computer components ????

this pc is my child it deserves the best, im trying to adapt to the locals and the new generation and just tap away at a smartphone in my hand but.. it just doesnt feel right sorry, phones or smartphones are meant to CALL others not google "big booty b!tches" yes that is handy but im not ready for that, this 43 year old pepper is staying planted in front of a monitor and keyboard okay im done ranting

 

[Misgar]

i wanted to ask if bad electricity can travel through the data cables to the well... rear of the hdd dock

Yes, "bad electricity" will travel quite happily through data cables as I mentioned earlier, as it seeks a path down to ground. This is normally very bad news for any devices connected to the data cable, i.e. fried mobo or disk drive.

at this moment i have 2 cables going to that beam

This is good. All items of mains powered equipment should be individually earthed, if the mains cable to the equipment has three wires, including earth.

but shouldnt the UPS take care of that ??? if the voltage is to high, im assuming it gets filtered out .. and if too low, the UPS taps into the battery

Not always. A cheap UPS simply routes mains power straight through to your computer, when AC mains from the local sub-station is present. It doesn't change the voltage. If the local AC mains is 200V, your computer gets 200V. If the local mains is 250V, your computer gets 250V.

Some better quality UPS have an "AVR function". On my ancient 650VA Belkin UPS, when the mains supply went over 245V AC, the AVR function kicked in and the output to the computer dropped by 20V down to 225V. When the mains input hit 253V, the output was 233V. Much safer for the computer.

On most UPS, apart from "always on-line" versions, the only time the battery is used is when the AC mains fails. The instant the mains vanishes, a relay clicks over inside the UPS and the battery powered inverter starts up, providing AC power to the computer for a few minutes, until the battery is exhausted. If the mains returns, the relay changes back, the battery stops supplying the inverter and the computer runs off the local mains.

OR the inverter that claims to be 500 watts isnt 500 watts

I'm not sure if you're talking about the UPS here, but remember, your UPS is rated at only 390W. If you're talking about your Chinese device, they may not have been 100% accurate in describing its spec. Remember VA and W ratings are not the same.

but since you said that my pc could kill me, im reluctant to touch it now

Your PC will only (potentially) try to kill you, if a serious fault develops inside the ATX PSU and the AC Line input (230V AC?) makes contact with the inside of the metal box surrounding the PSU components. 99.999% of the time you will be "safe" touching the ATX PSU case (apart from a buzz?). It's that 0.001% when a bad fault occurs and it's lethal. It might never happen, but do you feel confident it won't ever happen?

however these same cables can handle powering a CRT television

I still have two CRT TVs, but that's beside the point. The cable feeding a TV only needs to provide a few hundred Watts. As such, the 2-core flex is typically only 0.5mm sq (cross sectional area of copper strands). Such wire is rated at around 5A although the TV will only pull a few hundred mA.

Contrast this with the current required to trip a 10A fuse (at least 20A) or a 15A circuit beaker (at least 30A, possibly 50A) during a fault, and you can see that safety earths are best wired in a much thicker gauge of wire. If you want to be sure the fuse/breaker will trip/blow, before the length of horribly thin wire up to the beam glows red hot and vapourises, leaving you vulnerable, then carry on using thin wire for a safety earth.

wouldnt the cable just overheat and melt

Lightning rods on tall buildings or structures are usually connected to ground using thick copper straps, capable of carrying thousands of Amps. I wouldn't use anything less than 10mm sq wire, better still 16mm or 25mm, but I doubt even that would be enough. N.B. I've never installed a lightning rod, so this is merely guess work.

with a beefy rapid charger.. lets say 50 amps

Will your SLA batteries accept a 50A charging current? They might and then again, if they're low capacity 12V 7A, they might not. Only way to tell is to look up the spec of the battery. They might self limit to less than 50A charging current.

get a VERIFIED 1000 watt DC to AC inverter

Fine, if the inverter generates A PURE SINE WAVE, but I doubt you'll find such a beast for less than $300.

a sine wave or modified sine wave inverter, i don't know the difference, but the word SINE is in it..

The word "sine" in the term "modified sine wave" is marketing speak (BS) to lull the unwary into thinking they've purchased a superior product. It looks better in the advertising blurb than square wave, which sounds nasty (and is). Some computer equipment can cope with modified sine, but if you can afford it, a "true sine" or "pure sine" wave UPS or inverter is kindest to your electronics.

At worst, a modified sine might kill your equipment. At best, you won't notice any difference.

The best and most expensive option is an "always online, pure sine wave UPS", with large batteries (big UPS often contain two or four12V 14A batteries for higher outputs and longer run times). You're talking many hundreds of dollars, possibly thousands, but these UPS will protect your computer from most things. Problem is, it's much cheaper to go out and buy a replacement FM2 PC for $60, than spend $1,000+ on a top of the range UPS with extra long run time.

 

[ragez0r]

Yes, "bad electricity" will travel quite happily through data cables as I mentioned earlier, as it seeks a path down to ground. This is normally very bad news for any devices connected to the data cable, i.e. fried mobo or disk drive.

This is good. All items of mains powered equipment should be individually earthed, if the mains cable to the equipment has three wires, including earth.

Not always. A cheap UPS simply routes mains power straight through to your computer, when AC mains from the local sub-station is present. It doesn't change the voltage. If the local AC mains is 200V, your computer gets 200V. If the local mains is 250V, your computer gets 250V.

Some better quality UPS have an "AVR function". On my ancient 650VA Belkin UPS, when the mains supply went over 245V AC, the AVR function kicked in and the output to the computer dropped by 20V down to 225V. When the mains input hit 253V, the output was 233V. Much safer for the computer.

On most UPS, apart from "always on-line" versions, the only time the battery is used is when the AC mains fails. The instant the mains vanishes, a relay clicks over inside the UPS and the battery powered inverter starts up, providing AC power to the computer for a few minutes, until the battery is exhausted. If the mains returns, the relay changes back, the battery stops supplying the inverter and the computer runs off the local mains.

most likely i will pop by a shopping center this evening and poke one until he gives me a respectable price
but last i asked i heard 7000 php, and looking it up , that is 120-150$ on my money that no longer displays her majesty...just looked 169.61$

that is EITHER high end stuff or the "white mans" price which is called afam tax to the locals

I'm not sure if you're talking about the UPS here, but remember, your UPS is rated at only 390W. If you're talking about your Chinese device, they may not have been 100% accurate in describing its spec. Remember VA and W ratings are not the same.

yes im aware but not wanting to look stupid ive forced myself not to ask what VA means,, if i were to guess volts and amps which technically means watts when you multiply them together...
and the ups beeps more than a pissed off wife so, i have idea to actually test the claim of 390 watts peak.. unless you can share some master electrician trick that nobody has heard of...

Your PC will only (potentially) try to kill you, if a serious fault develops inside the ATX PSU and the AC Line input (230V AC?) makes contact with the inside of the metal box surrounding the PSU components. 99.999% of the time you will be "safe" touching the ATX PSU case (apart from a buzz?). It's that 0.001% when a bad fault occurs and it's lethal. It might never happen, but do you feel confident it won't ever happen?

we Canadians have 2 individual Gods Keannu Reeves (matrix and john wick) and Ryan Reynolds (Deadpool)
i trust that they will not let me BBQ myself and yes i am kidding although they are highly regarded

I still have two CRT TVs, but that's beside the point. The cable feeding a TV only needs to provide a few hundred Watts. As such, the 2-core flex is typically only 0.5mm sq (cross sectional area of copper strands). Such wire is rated at around 5A although the TV will only pull a few hundred mA.

Contrast this with the current required to trip a 10A fuse (at least 20A) or a 15A circuit beaker (at least 30A, possibly 50A) during a fault, and you can see that safety earths are best wired in a much thicker gauge of wire. If you want to be sure the fuse/breaker will trip/blow, before the length of horribly thin wire up to the beam glows red hot and vapourises, leaving you vulnerable, then carry on using thin wire for a safety earth.

Lightning rods on tall buildings or structures are usually connected to ground using thick copper straps, capable of carrying thousands of Amps. I wouldn't use anything less than 10mm sq wire, better still 16mm or 25mm, but I doubt even that would be enough. N.B. I've never installed a lightning rod, so this is merely guess work.


Will your SLA batteries accept a 50A charging current? They might and then again, if they're low capacity 12V 7A, they might not. Only way to tell is to look up the spec of the battery. They might self limit to less than 50A charging current.

2x 12v 50ah linked in parallel
brand is DCPOLARITY
model DCP-G50
sais the word gel somewhere but also says made in Germany but that isnt likely
supposed to be made for a SOLAR setup so if it can handle 50 amps im not certain,

image of battery

Fine, if the inverter generates A PURE SINE WAVE, but I doubt you'll find such a beast for less than $300.


The word "sine" in the term "modified sine wave" is marketing speak (BS) to lull the unwary into thinking they've purchased a superior product. It looks better in the advertising blurb than square wave, which sounds nasty (and is). Some computer equipment can cope with modified sine, but if you can afford it, a "true sine" or "pure sine" wave UPS or inverter is kindest to your electronics.

At worst, a modified sine might kill your equipment. At best, you won't notice any difference.

The best and most expensive option is an "always online, pure sine wave UPS", with large batteries (big UPS often contain two or four12V 14A batteries for higher outputs and longer run times). You're talking many hundreds of dollars, possibly thousands, but these UPS will protect your computer from most things. Problem is, it's much cheaper to go out and buy a replacement FM2 PC for $60, than spend $1,000+ on a top of the range UPS with extra long run time.

sadly since this computer has 2 purposes. 1 being property of the goverment of Canada i kind of need to protect it at all cost, kind of like a Taiwanese officer with his rifle... so i cannot simply go out and replace everything... i had to get permission to replace the YGT psu for an antec psu and when the chinese ssd went kaput i had so much crap comimg my way that i nearly lost my calm oh and the ram was replaced with something called hyper X and im sitting at a mild 16gb and not 8gb...

futhermore any replacements come out of my pocket which is currently quite dry.. yeah i wasn't really meant for a capitalist society

PS there is no shame in sharing your country of origin. in fact if you are English i will shower you with so much respect , i know Quebec has a reputation of disliking the English, but fact is Quebec hates everyone, but i grew up with top gear and doctor who.. even Rik Mayal.
and if you are USian, i will try to use smaller words... jk jk jk

 

[ragez0r]

<a href="https://freeimage.host/i/dsY155g"><img src="https://iili.io/dsY155g.md.jpg" alt="dsY155g.md.jpg" border="0"></a>

found this today, i dont recognize the name.. only 1700 php so i will assume it is in the 30-40$cad ballpark
on the bottom i do see a tiny image of a wave, im sorry i didnt stop to ask if it is sine wave, i kind of just assumed it is

 

[ragez0r]

so , no response, ill just go over what i believe i need to make certain that i dont fry this computer, a computer case and the one i posted seems to be acceptable since nobody said no to the one i posted.. ill get that one, it is just a metal frame....
and to replace my UPS,,,, and i dont know if Eaton is a reliable brand but 20-40$cad is ideal for my budget type

nothing else ????

spank you very much, goodbye

 

[Misgar]

At that price, I'd be very surprised indeed if it's true sine wave. Above $150 and you're more likely to find a true sine UPS rated at 750VA, but to be certain, I'd personally be looking at $200+ units. As I've said earlier, true sine is more expensive.

None the less, even if that Eaton 750VA UPS is 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation' which is highly likely, it will still be better than your existing low power UPS. The Eaton will probably work fine with your computer and hopefully give several years of service before you need to replace the battery or the UPS.

But, at such a low price level, it might go bang at any time. It's a risk you take. Known high quality UPS manufacturers such as APC charge 5x to 10x as much for a 750VA unit. You have to ask yourself is it simply blatant profiteering, or are APC units better designed, better constructed and more reliable? If APC units were junk, people wouldn't recommend and buy them.

As for asking a local shop keeper if the Eaton UPS is true sine, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, unless you've built up a friendship with the guy behind the counter over a number of years, with numerous purchases. They'll be more careful about selling you absolute/dangerous junk, if they think it will jeopardise future business from a good customer. When abroad, I stick to computer shops who know me.

As I said before about the metal frame, it doesn't ground all the components together, i.e. PSU, mobo, hard disks, etc. It's no better from the grounding, protection, RFI/EMC perspective than leaving everything spread out on the table. Get a case and leave the lid off if you will. Much neater and safer for your components.

 

[ragez0r]

At that price, I'd be very surprised indeed if it's true sine wave. Above $150 and you're more likely to find a true sine UPS rated at 750VA, but to be certain, I'd personally be looking at $200+ units. As I've said earlier, true sine is more expensive.

None the less, even if that Eaton 750VA UPS is 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation' which is highly likely, it will still be better than your existing low power UPS. The Eaton will probably work fine with your computer and hopefully give several years of service before you need to replace the battery or the UPS.

But, at such a low price level, it might go bang at any time. It's a risk you take. Known high quality UPS manufacturers such as APC charge 5x to 10x as much for a 750VA unit. You have to ask yourself is it simply blatant profiteering, or are APC units better designed, better constructed and more reliable? If APC units were junk, people wouldn't recommend and buy them.

okay.... you have yet to actually educate me what is VA ? VOLTS and AMPS ???
and when you say "bang" you mean physically explode ??? or catch fire ???

because apart from alligator clips connected to the battery inside the UPS to a battery outside the UPS and maybe a small vent to allow a small pc fan to be installed as seen in my video, i wont be tampering with this in anyway.. except now ill have an additional ups battery to parallel connect to... except i m aware the INPUT and OUTPUT power are supposed to be on the positive or negative of the final battery in the chain, but the UPS will not power on in this format, so i just keep it parallel with input output to only the first battery in the chain and hope that the umm i dont know how to call it the flow of power kind of balances out between the batteries in the chain.. please dont ask me to draw you a diagram, i was never any good in art class
a 3rd battery would just mean alligator clips pos to pos and neg to neg from battery 2 to battery 3... sorry if my Polish uncle taught me that wrong, and no that wasn't racism my family is actually slavic in origin

speaking of which im certain that my friendly US jab wasnt taken seriously .. during my paratrooping training in umm fayettville, NC ? i learned that our neighbours cant drink but they can handle next to anything.. including physical and verbal... furthermore, we ARE on the same continent... well not myself at this moment but you understand...

As for asking a local shop keeper if the Eaton UPS is true sine, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, unless you've built up a friendship with the guy behind the counter over a number of years, with numerous purchases. They'll be more careful about selling you absolute/dangerous junk, if they think it will jeopardise future business from a good customer. When abroad, I stick to computer shops who know me.

to avoid being overcharged i generally order online using tiktok, lazada or shopee.. appoerantly anything coming via amazon will run me an additional 100$ for taxes so im saving nothing...
looking now on my favourite of the 3 i see APC 500 watt UPS..... easy UPS... 650VA... 30 to360 watts peak.... 50/60Hz input voltage limits 140...300 V i dont see anything different here than what i currently have next to me...
oh here you go brand and model Easy UPS BVX650I-PH
suddenly the APC brand name is gone
ill keep scanning the app and let you know what i actually find

As I said before about the metal frame, it doesn't ground all the components together, i.e. PSU, mobo, hard disks, etc. It's no better from the grounding, protection, RFI/EMC perspective than leaving everything spread out on the table. Get a case and leave the lid off if you will. Much neater and safer for your components.

 

[ragez0r]

worth mentioning that since i started using land power and not the inverter.. my monitor almost never loses signal... i think the inverter was just poop....

thank you i think i glossed over your last paragraph without hitting the record button in my lil brain... neat isnt exactly my thing, i kind of like seeing cables all over the place.. and in order to get EMF, wouldnt the watts need to reach 1000 or more ???? nor are the cables coiled together....

 

[Misgar]

in order to get EMF,

You mis-read EMF for EMC. They're two completely different things. My mistake for using TLAs (three letter acronymns).

There is no miniumum power associated with Electro Motive Force (down to quantum level).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotive_force

I said RFI/EMC which is short for Radio Frequency Interference/Electro Magnetic Compatibility.

This is engineer speak for how much electrical noise your computer generates and how susceptible it is to intererence from other nearby equipment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_compatibility

Unless you're studying for a degree in Electronics, don't worry about the technicalities. Just accept the fact computer motherboards are designed to be mounted inside metal boxes, so they radiate less interference. The metal case also helps to isolate the motherboard from external interference (otherwise known as screening).

oh here you go brand and model Easy UPS BVX650I-PH

I checked the BVX850I-PH. It's "stepped approximation to sine wave", not pure sine wave. In addition it's "line interactive", not always on line. It's by no means top of the range, but since it's made by APC, it should be more reliable than a much cheaper no-name Chinese brand.
https://www.se.com/ph/en/product/BVX650I-PH/apc-easy-ups-bvx-650va-avr-230v/

This link attempts to explain why most UPS are specfied in VA (Volt Amps) as well as Watts:
https://blog.excessups.com/guides/why-are-ups-systems-mostly-rated-in-va-volt-amps/

Concepts such as real power, reactive power, Power Factor Correction (PFC) et. al., are all horribly complicated, and mainly of interest to Eiectrical Engineers. All you need to know is that power supplies contain inductors and capacitors, so even with PFC, they do not present an entirely resistive load to the AC mains. Hence the need for two different UPS power ratings in VA and W.

Don't worry about it. For the lay person to fully understand AC power theory is a "task of such mind mangling complexity" that Deep Thought eventually created the first Earth, to calculate the answer to a similar question.
https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Deep_Thought

when you say "bang" you mean physically explode ??? or catch fire ???

Both, in certain circumstances. When power electronics fail, due to misuse, overheating, old age, poor design, or incomptence on the part of the user, you may hear a loud percussive noise, accompanied by a bright spark and maybe even the "magic smoke". All these highly undesirable events are an indication to reach for your wallet, assuming you haven't just been electrocuted.

https://www.samaterials.com/content/why-do-electrolytic-capacitors-explode.html

 

[ragez0r]

You mis-read EMF for EMC. They're two completely different things. My mistake for using TLAs (three letter acronymns).

There is no miniumum power associated with Electro Motive Force (down to quantum level).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromotive_force

I said RFI/EMC which is short for Radio Frequency Interference/Electro Magnetic Compatibility.

yup sorry, my stupidity on that one, i was thinking Electro Magnetic Field...
at the subtle age of 43, ive gone through fun experiences with "electric" events... including losing eyebrows when a 600 amp panel kinda exploded in my and my cousins face ... not either of our faults, simply someone didnt cut the power when told to.......... live and learn

This is engineer speak for how much electrical noise your computer generates and how susceptible it is to intererence from other nearby equipment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_interference
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_compatibility

Unless you're studying for a degree in Electronics, don't worry about the technicalities. Just accept the fact computer motherboards are designed to be mounted inside metal boxes, so they radiate less interference. The metal case also helps to isolate the motherboard from external interference (otherwise known as screening).

and by Oct 7 i will receive the metal plate that i linked before.. although im not sure i understand if its a good idea to energize the metal casing of a pc .... ill figure it out someday, no need to explain ....

I checked the BVX850I-PH. It's "stepped approximation to sine wave", not pure sine wave. In addition it's "line interactive", not always on line. It's by no means top of the range, but since it's made by APC, it should be more reliable than a much cheaper no-name Chinese brand.
https://www.se.com/ph/en/product/BVX650I-PH/apc-easy-ups-bvx-650va-avr-230v/

This link attempts to explain why most UPS are specfied in VA (Volt Amps) as well as Watts:
https://blog.excessups.com/guides/why-are-ups-systems-mostly-rated-in-va-volt-amps/

Concepts such as real power, reactive power, Power Factor Correction (PFC) et. al., are all horribly complicated, and mainly of interest to Eiectrical Engineers. All you need to know is that power supplies contain inductors and capacitors, so even with PFC, they do not present an entirely resistive load to the AC mains. Hence the need for two different UPS power ratings in VA and W.

Don't worry about it. For the lay person to fully understand AC power theory is a "task of such mind mangling complexity" that Deep Thought eventually created the first Earth, to calculate the answer to a similar question.
https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Deep_Thought

oo Douglas Adams was a great British author, your still giving away your location which is great in every way

Both, in certain circumstances. When power electronics fail, due to misuse, overheating, old age, poor design, or incomptence on the part of the user, you may hear a loud percussive noise, accompanied by a bright spark and maybe even the "magic smoke". All these highly undesirable events are an indication to reach for your wallet, assuming you haven't just been electrocuted.

https://www.samaterials.com/content/why-do-electrolytic-capacitors-explode.html

blown capacitors i think, but apart from a loud pop i dont expect much harm to my persons

im trying to find the model of my intex UPS but i think i cut off that portion of the sticker as you saw in that photo... im thinking its barely a notch above "generic" chinese but i have seen intex produvts for sale in FutureShop in Montreal so it cant be utter crap can it ????

 

[Misgar]

im not sure i understand if its a good idea to energize the metal casing of a pc

By "energize" I do hope you're not thinking of connecting your new metal base plate to the output of a Van de Graaff generator, like Dr. Frankenstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator

Since your new motherboard base plate will probably not have enough room to bolt on the ATX PSU, there's not much to be gained by grounding (earthing) it. It wouldn't do any harm though.

blown capacitors i think, but apart from a loud pop i dont expect much harm to my person

I remember leaning over and peering into a home-brew audio amplifier designed by a colleague at work. I stepped back and moments later, a large electrolytic capacitor blew up (he'd put 40V across a capacitor rated at only 25V).

The metal can of the electrolytic punched a hole through the plastic diffuser over a fluorescent ceiling light. That hole could have been the remains of my eye. I was not best pleased.

Admittedly, electrolytics in an ATX PSU are contained inside a metal box, but one side is open apart from a grille and small shards could exit through the fan blades.

The bulk electrolytic rated at 400V DC is quite large and contains a fair amount of energy when charged up to 340V DC. Enough to propel pieces some distance.

When the PSU is housed inside a metal computer case, it provides more protection (and electrical screening).

FutureShop in Montreal so it cant be utter crap can it ????

Future Shop in Montreal closed in 2015, so your Intex UPS must be at least 10 years old. Now might be a good time to retire it.

Does your Intex UPS bear a Canadian UL certification mark? UL safety marks are often "forged" by unscrupulous Far East manufacturers and aren't worth the label they're printed on.

Reputable manufacturers spend weeks during the design and testing phases, to ensure their products comply with Canadian (or US, or European) safety legislation. They will have test results to prove their product is safe. Items sold on AliExpress may be of dubious quality and unsafe, even with a UL mark.

https://canada.ul.com/ulcprograms/ul-mark-product-certification-for-the-canadian-market/

 

[ragez0r]

By "energize" I do hope you're not thinking of connecting your new metal base plate to the output of a Van de Graaff generator, like Dr. Frankenstein.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator

no but since you recommend a case my only assumption is for some of that "not good ?" power to have somewhere to go.. i have no intentions of putting any form of electricity through that frame, it will serve only to put in standoffs i think are called and place the mobo on top of that with e correct screws.. as well as the PSU if it fits

Since your new motherboard base plate will probably not have enough room to bolt on the ATX PSU, there's not much to be gained by grounding (earthing) it. It wouldn't do any harm though.


I remember leaning over and peering into a home-brew audio amplifier designed by a colleague at work. I stepped back and moments later, a large electrolytic capacitor blew up (he'd put 40V across a capacitor rated at only 25V).

The metal can of the electrolytic punched a hole through the plastic diffuser over a fluorescent ceiling light. That hole could have been the remains of my eye. I was not best pleased.

Admittedly, electrolytics in an ATX PSU are contained inside a metal box, but one side is open apart from a grille and small shards could exit through the fan blades.

The bulk electrolytic rated at 400V DC is quite large and contains a fair amount of energy when charged up to 340V DC. Enough to propel pieces some distance.

When the PSU is housed inside a metal computer case, it provides more protection (and electrical screening).


Future Shop in Montreal closed in 2015, so your Intex UPS must be at least 10 years old. Now might be a good

time to retire it.

correct but im certain this intex ups didnt come from futureshop.. since it was listed as a REfurbished UPS online sans battery online on Lazada (chinese or indian version of amazon)

Does your Intex UPS bear a Canadian UL certification mark? UL safety marks are often "forged" by unscrupulous Far East manufacturers and aren't worth the label they're printed on.

Reputable manufacturers spend weeks during the design and testing phases, to ensure their products comply with Canadian (or US, or European) safety legislation. They will have test results to prove their product is safe. Items sold on AliExpress may be of dubious quality and unsafe, even with a UL mark.

https://canada.ul.com/ulcprograms/ul-mark-product-certification-for-the-canadian-market/

if it did i most certainly cut that UL logo in half with my dremel for the vent for the pc fan... which is visible in the video that i shared, im really not fond of my celine dion accent you know im under the impression that intex is just another branded product that futureshop used to sell.. as any other, HP, DELL, lenovo, samsung etc......

 

[ragez0r]

i just looked at the front of my ups and on the bottom it does read it-725a

owner is from India(or Bharat) but it is fabricated in china and it is somehow connected to Los Angeles

 

[Misgar]

I found this unboxing video of the IT-725A on YouTube but I only understood part of what the presenter was saying. I noted the UPS has protection for loads greater than 270W, which seems odd, given its 325W rating.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0AkpSUuyJ4


At 1 min 25 sec into the video, the label shows the price (in 2019?) was 2799.0. The label also shows Intex Technologies (India) Ltd, so it might be Indian Rupees. Current conversion rates on XE show IR 2799 = US $33.43, which isn't encouraging.

The IT-725A looks like a "bog standard", inexpensive, 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation' UPS. You'd need to ask a test lab to confirm the output waveform on a 'scope, if you're curious. At that price it's not a high quality "pure sine wave" UPS.

All the links I've followed show the IT-725A as Out-of-Stock, meaning it's probably end-of-life. If your unit was made in 2019, it's 5 years old and may need a new battery.

I wouldn't place Intex in the same build quality category as APC. They both make UPS, but I'd prefer APC over Intex any day. Intex made cheap UPS for the Indian market, at prices local people could afford.

Many high end APC UPS are too expensive for me. I wouldn't mind this 3000VA/2700W pure sine UPS. A snip at $2,201.47. It has a claimed run time of "up to 6 minutes at full load". It should keep 3 or 4 of my PCs plus network switches and firewalls running for a while.
https://www.amazon.com/APC-SMX3000LVNC-Management-Convertible-Line-Interactive/dp/B00DQOAHTQ/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yZLATU_tzTvzlaXsHjQFz9Bf-IKbev8QanFqIfrg23-XShrrtUTO5wxB7rHuIdX0E3ATiSsYZ6MIjV4BrFua3PFRTr9FNpS5cw0OzA2JY776uds-WTRAO0TBeuJKJ8oWqXIGdL6KweYePZUGaiJjCq2I1-8v0CIXbTgjzYim_BG_P9vWoZka28ODuOJqUb7xzE0B349IPEM2WnoIb0Vnr24oLKvZB1bza1mNT2g04w4.2DON3_1zIW5d1g2p_sMEAd-sC5cnFMERRQ5sB_bRmeU&dib_tag=se&keywords=apc+ups+3000va&qid=1727614286&sr=8-3&th=1

 

[ragez0r]

I found this unboxing video of the IT-725A on YouTube but I only understood part of what the presenter was saying. I noted the UPS has protection for loads greater than 270W, which seems odd, given its 325W rating.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0AkpSUuyJ4

and yet my sticker says 390w.........

At 1 min 25 sec into the video, the label shows the price (in 2019?) was 2799.0. The label also shows Intex Technologies (India) Ltd, so it might be Indian Rupees. Current conversion rates on XE show IR 2799 = US $33.43, which isn't encouraging.

i paid 15-20$ for a refurbished model sans battery so im happy....

The IT-725A looks like a "bog standard", inexpensive, 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation' UPS. You'd need to ask a test lab to confirm the output waveform on a 'scope, if you're curious. At that price it's not a high quality "pure sine wave" UPS.

regardless of what type of wave it is outputting.. are any of the computer components in any immidiate danger ? or if i finally convince mother dearest to ship out my msi gaming laptop here.... will the power brick of that laptop not keep the msi laptop from commiting seppuku ? (Japanese suicide) or get damaged in any way ?

All the links I've followed show the IT-725A as Out-of-Stock, meaning it's probably end-of-life. If your unit was made in 2019, it's 5 years old and may need a new battery.

I wouldn't place Intex in the same build quality category as APC. They both make UPS, but I'd prefer APC over Intex any day. Intex made cheap UPS for the Indian market, at prices local people could afford.

Many high end APC UPS are too expensive for me. I wouldn't mind this 3000VA/2700W pure sine UPS. A snip at $2,201.47. It has a claimed run time of "up to 6 minutes at full load". It should keep 3 or 4 of my PCs plus network switches and firewalls running for a while.
https://www.amazon.com/APC-SMX3000LVNC-Management-Convertible-Line-Interactive/dp/B00DQOAHTQ/ref=sr_1_3?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yZLATU_tzTvzlaXsHjQFz9Bf-IKbev8QanFqIfrg23-XShrrtUTO5wxB7rHuIdX0E3ATiSsYZ6MIjV4BrFua3PFRTr9FNpS5cw0OzA2JY776uds-WTRAO0TBeuJKJ8oWqXIGdL6KweYePZUGaiJjCq2I1-8v0CIXbTgjzYim_BG_P9vWoZka28ODuOJqUb7xzE0B349IPEM2WnoIb0Vnr24oLKvZB1bza1mNT2g04w4.2DON3_1zIW5d1g2p_sMEAd-sC5cnFMERRQ5sB_bRmeU&dib_tag=se&keywords=apc+ups+3000va&qid=1727614286&sr=8-3&th=1

i actually did find a commercial sized UPS online for 20,000 php give or take, kind of forgot the brand of it sorry
also i will be sending you a private video (non sexual i promise) i think i mentioned a few details in regards to my situation.... please watch .. im uploading now.....

 

[ragez0r]

received the pc case slab, turned out to be plastic not steel :/

 

[Misgar]

regardless of what type of wave it is outputting.. are any of the computer components in any immidiate danger ?

Immediate danger, probably not. Long term damage, maybe, if you have frequent power cuts.

It probably doesn't matter provided you use the off-line UPS in the intended manner, which is to supply emergency back up power for 2 to 3 minutes after a power cut, allowing you time to shut down your computer gracefully.

The rest of the time, when the AC town mains is present, your computer will receive a pure sine wave. The only time it will receive a "dirty" supply i.e. 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation', is when the UPS inverter starts running after the mains fails.

and yet my sticker says 390w.........

Who knows what your particular UPS is rated at. It's not unknown for manufacturers to write different numbers on different labels, let alone change the claimed rating after several years of manufacture. The cheaper the device, the more figures you'll see (often plucked out of thin air).

will the power brick of that laptop not keep the msi laptop from commiting seppuku ?

Under normal circumstances, your laptop's PSU will be fed with a pure sine wave 99% of the time (from town mains). As stated before, it will only receive dirty power (non-sine for cheaper units) when the mains input to the UPS disappears and the inverter starts up, as happens during a power cut or when you unplug the UPS from the wall.

received the pc case slab, turned out to be plastic not steel :/

About as much use as a chocolate tea pot (or fire guard) from the (minimal) screening point of view. Rescue an old computer case from a skip, the town dump or second hand store and tidy up the rats nest.

i actually did find a commercial sized UPS online for 20,000 php

There are two "sizes" to consider for a UPS:
1). Rated output power in VA and W
2). Estimated run time (dependant on battery size and output level)
As either size gets bigger, so does the price.

 

[ragez0r]

Immediate danger, probably not. Long term damage, maybe, if you have frequent power cuts.

It probably doesn't matter provided you use the off-line UPS in the intended manner, which is to supply emergency back up power for 2 to 3 minutes after a power cut, allowing you time to shut down your computer gracefully.

The rest of the time, when the AC town mains is present, your computer will receive a pure sine wave. The only time it will receive a "dirty" supply i.e. 'modified sine' or 'sine approximation', is when the UPS inverter starts running after the mains fails.

so the vcr cassete sized power block of the msi gaming laptop wont do anything to mitigate ? or lessen the damage ?
ive been known for repeatedly kicking the power outlet of the ups power in cable.. soo no bueno ?
especially during sitting and standing position.. so if i dont hear the ups chirp.. i feel a disturbance in the force

Who knows what your particular UPS is rated at. It's not unknown for manufacturers to write different numbers on different labels, let alone change the claimed rating after several years of manufacture. The cheaper the device, the more figures you'll see (often plucked out of thin air).


Under normal circumstances, your laptop's PSU will be fed with a pure sine wave 99% of the time (from town mains). As stated before, it will only receive dirty power (non-sine for cheaper units) when the mains input to the UPS disappears and the inverter starts up, as happens during a power cut or when you unplug the UPS from the wall.


About as much use as a chocolate tea pot (or fire guard) from the (minimal) screening point of view. Rescue an old computer case from a skip, the town dump or second hand store and tidy up the rats nest.

philippines is more of a "burn its trash" mentality.. there isnt a town dump per say

There are two "sizes" to consider for a UPS:
1). Rated output power in VA and W
2). Estimated run time (dependant on battery size and output level)
As either size gets bigger, so does the price.

well 20,000 used to be 400$cad before the CAD began to sink.. so i will say 400$USD as a reference
but at this moment i cannot locate said ups.. possibly removed from listing....

 

[Misgar]

so the vcr cassete sized power block of the msi gaming laptop wont do anything to mitigate ? or lessen the damage ?

Read this discussion, especially the bit about Dell not recommending a "modified sine wave" mains input to one of their laptop PSUs. It's the laptop brick that might be damaged first. Again, the quote from Dirty Harry springs to mind. It's your choice.

https://electronics.stackexchange.c...er-destroy-damage-the-ac-adapter-for-a-laptop