Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (
More info?)
maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>>maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>>> Also some of the effects to make 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with
>>> the balance stick. Most notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared
>>> to other classes a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3
>>> talents.
>>
>> Races and classes certainly aren't balanced in the sense that they
>> are all equally easy or difficult to win with. And that is a good
>> thing, because it means that there are different challenge levels.
>> Therefore, I do not see a problem with the Bard gift. When
>> comparing it to a wish, also consider that seven-league boots can
>> be destroyed easily, and a wish usually nets three or four pairs. I
>> agree with some of the other points you are making here though.
>>
>
> I seem to get an average slightly above 2 on wishes for 7LB. So half
> a wish. You cannot completely guard them from destruction, but if you
> avoid kicking on doors with them on you'll be likely to have them
> survive until other pairs can be recovered. Not entirely a wish, but
> almost. They just don't compare to the other Heir gifts at all.
1/3 of a wish. You get 2d2 items when you wish for most stuff, which is
an average of 3.
It is a rather powerful heir gift, thought it does take 3 _starting_
talents. I personally think it's not particularily overpowered, and the
worst of the other heir gifts should simply be upgraded a bit. I doubt
stuff like this will ever be looked at anyway, though; JADE is where
Thomas' interess lie now. Most items that would fall under RFE are
probably not ever going to be implemented, realistically.
> It is not possible to create a complete balance between classes and
> races. After all they live by their differences (and we salute that
> with joy), but to a degree there is some form of balance. Some
> combinations are easy starters and hard finishers (candle trollish
> healers) and some are the opposite (sword dark elven farmers), but
> all in all there is a level of balance. As stated I was not part of
> the development of the game, but I have always felt the balance was
> there. The uber-jackal effect has such a significant impact that any
> advantage will likewise be significant and should be carefully
> considered.
Indeed, the races and classes are plenty balanced. Everything has some
advantage, even if that advantage is being more of a challenge for
experienced players
😛
>> So if you can't discover a bug by playing, it probably doesn't have
>> any noticeable effect on your gameplay experience, and therefore
>> isn't terribly serious?
Not nessicarily as serious, but still bugs that should be fixed (and are
often very easy to fix) anyway. In addition, with some of this stuff,
Thomas might not even _know_ there is a bug at all (Unicorn having
reverse effect for example).
For some of the more minor bugs, it's basically a balance of the effect
versus how easy it is (or should be) to fix. For the rift and unicorn
bugs, it should be a simple matter of changing a single number and
shouldn't take a lot of effort at all, and both (especially unicorn) do
have some actual impact on the game. Other misc. junk (you can use
ventriloquism while muted) just isn't worth the bother. Of course, where
exactly the line is drawn is up to debate...
>>> 7) Artifacts. Sorry, but the artifact patch and the declaration
>>> of this as a cheat by puritans (not namecalling, I am one myself)
>>> gives me reason to believe the generation of artifacts need some
>>> attention. There is no doubt about the variable power of
>>> artifacts. You curse at an obsidian quarrel and cheer at shining
>>> silver bracers. I believe it is good that certain artifacts are
>>> crown only. Perhaps artifact grouping should be clearly defined
>>> and make an old bug a feature?
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that some
>> artifacts are only available as crowning gift. I think TB has
>> stated that at some time. As far as I know, ToGu's patch does not
>> make all crowning-only artifacts available as regular artifacts,
>> only some of them.
>>
>
> I have seen a transcript from IRC where the matter is discussed. I
> think it was on gamma14. Someone asked TB why Celestrix hadn't been
> seen for a while and wether it was intentional. I think TB replied
> that all non-guaranteed artifacts ought to have equal chance of
> generation. Naturally I completely lack the discussions in between,
> but it is likewise my impression that it ended up with being virtue
> of necessity - that the bug only improved the game and was left as a
> feature. ToGu's fix definately allows random generation of Vanquisher
> last time I checked, which is why I consider it bordering a cheat. An
> elven Priest with Vanquisher and Sun's Messenger is... well... nuts.
> I am actually perfectly content with things the way they are. The
> best weapons are still crown or guaranteed and hard to get (Grod,
> Vanq, Suns, AotME and TotRR) and the best armours are randomly
> generated or fairly easy to obtain. This seems to give a good balance
> somehow. It is a bug in nature however, and from my point of view it
> might be nice to bring the matter up with TB which is why I mentioned
> it. At the absolutely lowest priority
😀.
It's fine to have some artifacts only available through crowning, but I
think at least some of them only available that way should be available
as random drops as well.
A small side note, one artifact is more common the the rest (by creation
probability anyway, I forget what it's danger level was): Wyrmlance.
> Most important is the implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it
> can be defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen the
> need to specifically target summoners to this degree. A much better
> solution would be to make higher level monsters tougher in general.
> That would make _every_ monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat
> (and MaLaKaI a regular devil to beat).
Not really a better solution at all, because the uber-jackal effect was
put into place to curb the scumming of stuff in general, not just the
tougher stuff. There are 2 reasons for this effect actually being a
problem to the normal player, neither of which (assumedly) were taken
into account when the idea was thought up. Since the rate at which
monsters become super powerful is directly based on thier creation
probability, anything that would cause more of them to exsist
(automatically placed such as chaos servants, or summoned like jackals)
than the creation probability indicates causes problems. So, to fix this
problem, these factors need to be accounted for in some way; the easiest
way to fix the problem but still leave the effect in place would be to
change the creation probabilities of jackals, spiders, chaos servants,
and wolves up a bit. This is a mediocre fix since it affects the game
balance slightly, but it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that
wouldn't actually have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to
do at all anymore for ADOM, I've heard), such as a flag for monsters
that can be summoned and thus should have a weakened effect of the power-up.
> 1)Bugs causing the game to freeze
> 2)Bugs causing the game to crash (skilled, ignots, ...)
> 3)Severe Bugs (Berferk, Uber-Jackal(to some degree), ...)
> 4)Slight Bugs (Starsign problem, rift, artifacts, ...)
> 5)Bugs used to cheat (Piety blessing, repair broken stacks, ...)
This is a pretty good ranking list; a small note is that some crash
bugs can be recovered from and the character lives on, and others they
cannot (the latter obviously being more serious).
> As a final word: Do we have a line of communication with TB and if
> not can such a thing be established. I can see how tiresome it can be
> for TB to see 400 entries in the bug database all titled "Skilled
> talent crash teh game". It would be much better to recieve a solid
> summary from r.g.r.a and have the same person give a brief feed-back.
> Malte, you would be ideal in such a role. You are well-spoken,
> experienced and also German (sometimes it's just nicer to use your
> native tongue). Just something to consider.
Something I've been talking about for a while. I don't really care the
means (who is the spokesman or the method of contact doesn't make a ton
of differance to me), but we do need _some_ way to talk to Thomas and
hopefully get a final, official, bug-fixed version of ADOM out before he
puts it in the closet forever =) If nothing else, we can try snail mail
after we get a nice organized list. The bug database is simply not going
to be a good alternative here at all.
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