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[citation][nom]aracheb[/nom]i read this, and i said well i really don't like the fight, let me check what he said and went into apple store assembled and mac book 13" aluminum this are the spec.. MacBook, 13-inch, AluminumPart Number: Z0FU2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo4GB 1066MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2x2GB250GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpmSuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)Keyboard (English) / User's GuideApple Mini DisplayPort to DVI AdapterMini DisplayPort to VGA AdapterAppleCare Protection Plan for MacBook Air/MacBook : since it doesn't come with a default warranty, i have to buy the applecare myself. the price was: Cart Subtotal: $1,781.00Free Shipping: $0.00Estimated Tax*: $149.16 Estimated Total: $1,930.16them went to dell and assembled the dell: the dell studio xps 13: with almost the same spec, the only difference is that i have more HDD space with the dell and more CPU speed, to be exact 400 megahertz more that might cost me arround 200 usd in mac..this are the spec of the dellSYSTEM COLOR Obsidian Black with Leather Accent editPROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8600 (3MB cache/2.4GHz/1066Mhz FSB) editOPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-bit editPRODUCTIVITY SOFTWARE Microsoft Works 9.0 - English: Spreadsheet, Word Processor and Calendar editWARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty, InHome Service after Remote Diagnosis editHD DISPLAY Edge-to-Edge 13.3" HD WXGA LCD with 2.0 Megapixel Camera editMEMORY 4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms) editHARD DRIVE 320GB 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive editINTERNAL OPTICAL DRIVE Slot Load DVD+/-RW (DVD/CD read/write) editVIDEO CARD NVIDIA® GeForce® 9400M G editWIRELESS CARDS Dell Wireless 1510 802.11n Half Mini-Card editSOUND OPTIONS High Definition Audio 2.0 editBLUETOOTH Dell Wireless 370 Bluetooth Module (2.1+EDR) editand this is the price:Sub Total $1,119.00Shipping & Handling $29.00Shipping Discount -$29.00Tax $93.73State Environmental FeeMore Info --Total $1,212.73ummthe difference is: 718.00 usd in apple tax..i stick to my pc..[/citation]
Funny, I was able to get this laptop for $1140. The faster processor is necessary to run the bloated and slow Vista. Apple has the same exact included warranty as a Dell and you forgot to add Vista Ultimate - no fair buying only the stripped down version of Windows. Also, the Mac doesn't need the RAM that Vista does. (plus you can add the 2GB extra yourself for $20, but you wouldn't need it on the Mac) looks to me like the Dell was more than the Apple.
So much for the huge Apple tax - you can cherry pick and fudge your numbers all you want - Macs are maybe 20% more on average. There really is no exact way to compare. You might be tempted to spend more on your base model Dell for crap you don't need, thinking all along that it was "cheaper".
Is it worth it? Personal preference. Just remember that if the Mac you buy today meets your needs, both technical and aesthetic, for the next three years, it might be worth a little extra. If you have to have the newest "miracle" Saint Jobs presents every six months, well, you're getting ripped off.
Funny, I was able to get this laptop for $1140. The faster processor is necessary to run the bloated and slow Vista. Apple has the same exact included warranty as a Dell and you forgot to add Vista Ultimate - no fair buying only the stripped down version of Windows. Also, the Mac doesn't need the RAM that Vista does. (plus you can add the 2GB extra yourself for $20, but you wouldn't need it on the Mac) looks to me like the Dell was more than the Apple.
So much for the huge Apple tax - you can cherry pick and fudge your numbers all you want - Macs are maybe 20% more on average. There really is no exact way to compare. You might be tempted to spend more on your base model Dell for crap you don't need, thinking all along that it was "cheaper".
Is it worth it? Personal preference. Just remember that if the Mac you buy today meets your needs, both technical and aesthetic, for the next three years, it might be worth a little extra. If you have to have the newest "miracle" Saint Jobs presents every six months, well, you're getting ripped off.
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[citation][nom]iphonerulez[/nom]Lauren wanted to be cool, so she went to the Apple Store first. Really, why else would she go to the Apple Store first. Probably because most of her friends owned Macs and iPhones. She looked around but realized her pockets weren't deep enough, so she had to "settle" for what she could afford. Good for her. In six months when her heavy 17" HP starts to fall apart and begins to be infested with malware and viruses, she'll look back and wish she'd ponied up the extra money to buy a Mac notebook running OSX and some AppleCare.That's OK, because some people need to learn from their mistakes and sometimes just a good dose of reality will lead them down the right path. So basically the Microsoft ad is telling people, if they can't afford a Mac, then they should just be happy with what they can afford, a Windows-powered PC. In a world where people want the most expensive homes, cars and clothing, they should settle for the cheapest PC they can get their hands on.Way to go, Lauren. Make sure you put on your brightest smile at your fiance when he buys you the cheapest engagement ring in the display. Understand that he's not being cheap, he's just being smart.[/citation]
You HAVE to be kidding.
You HAVE to be kidding.
As a relatively new mac user and a journalist person (as well as a student) I find that the stability and battery are what make me particularly happy with my investment. Given that I spend so much time running back and forth between classes it's nice to know I can just close the machine, pick it up and drop it in my bag, then open it when I get there with no fuss. As much as I'm sure this the case with some windows machines, I can say honestly that none of my Windows notebooks ever did the same 🙁 Waking up was either slow, or caused some apps to crash; I ended up restarting often.
As it stands, my mac's uptime (while being put into and out of sleep mode, being used to play Team Fortress and other gaming bits and bobs) is 3 weeks.
If I'm willing to pay for that experience, then why should anyone else care? I made money by working. I was HAPPY to pay extra for the machine that I have and I am MORE than satisfied by what it delivers...
Chill out fanatics.
As it stands, my mac's uptime (while being put into and out of sleep mode, being used to play Team Fortress and other gaming bits and bobs) is 3 weeks.
If I'm willing to pay for that experience, then why should anyone else care? I made money by working. I was HAPPY to pay extra for the machine that I have and I am MORE than satisfied by what it delivers...
Chill out fanatics.
Lessons I take from the ad: (1) The Apple Store is the first place to go when you want to buy a computer. (2) If you can afford them, Apple is clearly the way to go. (3) If you have money for a premium computer, (whether Apple, Vaio, Adamo, or the like) you are cool. (4) If you have to buy HP you aren’t cool. (5) PC brands are all the same, the only criteria to consider is which is the cheapest.
keither5150
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@ TooCool,
Too funny.
Your laptop doesn't make you cool and Axe body spray doesn't get you 100's of chicks at a time. You will be lucky to get one at a time. Your name does't make you cool either. If you are wondering what makes you cool, you will never be cool.
Nobody remembers that the girl in the ad was looking for a 17 inch notebook. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will, but I think that the 17 inch macbook starts at $2799. Why are people listing the specs on a 13 inch?
Please remember that this is just an ad which was produced and edited by MS. If it were real life, she would have asked her most knowledgeable friend for advice. They would have never gone to the mac store.
As a PC guy I don't believe that the people in "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads are real.
You should spend less time trying to justify your purchase and more time enjoying your experience.
Mac people are funny..... too funny.
Too funny.
Your laptop doesn't make you cool and Axe body spray doesn't get you 100's of chicks at a time. You will be lucky to get one at a time. Your name does't make you cool either. If you are wondering what makes you cool, you will never be cool.
Nobody remembers that the girl in the ad was looking for a 17 inch notebook. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you will, but I think that the 17 inch macbook starts at $2799. Why are people listing the specs on a 13 inch?
Please remember that this is just an ad which was produced and edited by MS. If it were real life, she would have asked her most knowledgeable friend for advice. They would have never gone to the mac store.
As a PC guy I don't believe that the people in "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads are real.
You should spend less time trying to justify your purchase and more time enjoying your experience.
Mac people are funny..... too funny.
The point of the commercial is you can get a computer with all the features you want for under a $1000, if it runs Windows. Otherwise you have to pay your pence to the Apple gods and pay much more then that.
Re-enforces how I feel about Apple products: Over-priced for nothing major.
Re-enforces how I feel about Apple products: Over-priced for nothing major.
Most of the people here build their own computers which the Apple Heads don't get.
"Compare it to a Dell." They say.
None of us PC Guys wouldn't buy a Dell so why should we.
If you are happy with your Mac then congrats and nobody should tell you what to do with your money. Most of the people at this site don't like Macs and it has nothing to do with the money. It's the restrictive nature of Apple Products. Mac's could cost exactly the same as a PC product or even less and we would feel the same way.
Most of us at this site enjoy the freedom of being able to build, upgrade, and tailor a PC to our very needs. For some of us money isn't an object. We are continously looking at the newest hardware, the next Overclock, the latest feature and if you are honest with yourself you would realise that Apple products are the very opposite. They build with products that have been out for a while, the case is nothing special because most of us have cases that put it to shame, and running smooth... well most of us tweak our machines to the point of up most efficiency.
So the Mac is seen as a restrictive piece of hardware that seeks to regress the values of freedom and oppresiveness. When we say we hate Macs it's because we hate the ideal of what Mac is. Most of us PC guys don't even understand why we hate Macs and try to find a logical reason to it but when you look at the ideal of what Mac represents you begin to further understand why some people just hate Macs.
Macs are that average is cool and we can all be the same but the truth is we thrive in a world where being different is who we are. Macs are a fake image. Underneith that cool plastic exterior they are nothing special and yet they try to pass themselves as being special. Then there is the darker side of Macs which is that by placing a cool look and attitude we can subjugate the masses to being controlled and confined. For some of us we will always fight that message and it isn't about cost because when it comes to our freedoms there is no price that we can be bought.
So when we say, "We hate Macs." Understand that we don't actually don't hate Macs but the ideal that they represent. Till Macs are open and free we will always hate Macs. We don't want to be white and shiny and to all be equal. We are different, expressive, and wonderful and we have every right to be so.
I hope this helps the Mac people to understand why they can't argue against the PC people who hate Macs. It's the ideal that the machine represents and not the machine that we hate.
"Compare it to a Dell." They say.
None of us PC Guys wouldn't buy a Dell so why should we.
If you are happy with your Mac then congrats and nobody should tell you what to do with your money. Most of the people at this site don't like Macs and it has nothing to do with the money. It's the restrictive nature of Apple Products. Mac's could cost exactly the same as a PC product or even less and we would feel the same way.
Most of us at this site enjoy the freedom of being able to build, upgrade, and tailor a PC to our very needs. For some of us money isn't an object. We are continously looking at the newest hardware, the next Overclock, the latest feature and if you are honest with yourself you would realise that Apple products are the very opposite. They build with products that have been out for a while, the case is nothing special because most of us have cases that put it to shame, and running smooth... well most of us tweak our machines to the point of up most efficiency.
So the Mac is seen as a restrictive piece of hardware that seeks to regress the values of freedom and oppresiveness. When we say we hate Macs it's because we hate the ideal of what Mac is. Most of us PC guys don't even understand why we hate Macs and try to find a logical reason to it but when you look at the ideal of what Mac represents you begin to further understand why some people just hate Macs.
Macs are that average is cool and we can all be the same but the truth is we thrive in a world where being different is who we are. Macs are a fake image. Underneith that cool plastic exterior they are nothing special and yet they try to pass themselves as being special. Then there is the darker side of Macs which is that by placing a cool look and attitude we can subjugate the masses to being controlled and confined. For some of us we will always fight that message and it isn't about cost because when it comes to our freedoms there is no price that we can be bought.
So when we say, "We hate Macs." Understand that we don't actually don't hate Macs but the ideal that they represent. Till Macs are open and free we will always hate Macs. We don't want to be white and shiny and to all be equal. We are different, expressive, and wonderful and we have every right to be so.
I hope this helps the Mac people to understand why they can't argue against the PC people who hate Macs. It's the ideal that the machine represents and not the machine that we hate.
The price difference between a Macbook and PC laptop is pretty ridiculous. Oh wow, you can have a monolithic case and an OS from a company that of course only points out the bugs of their main competition's OS. I've been working with Macs since the Mac Classic... from my experience I've seen my fair share of software bugs in a Mac, Windows, or Linux system. It's simply user experience that allows one to work around these bugs to the point of them seeming almost non-existent on your "favored" OS.
Also, some of you point out "faulty build quality." That's the fault of the OEM and not Microsoft. There are OEMs out there that actually give a damn about build quality and price at the same time. Pointing out a couple bad eggs from one or two manufacturers is like picking fly shit out of pepper.
P.S. I whole-heatedly agree with keither5150 on the subject.
Also, some of you point out "faulty build quality." That's the fault of the OEM and not Microsoft. There are OEMs out there that actually give a damn about build quality and price at the same time. Pointing out a couple bad eggs from one or two manufacturers is like picking fly shit out of pepper.
P.S. I whole-heatedly agree with keither5150 on the subject.
As a technology consultant I use 3 platforms, Mac, Linux, and PC. In my heart Macs rock! But in the real-world PCs win simply because they hit home on something magic called the Mac experience. From 3.1, ME, XP, Vista... each version of the PC world (or MS world) gets closer to the Mac experience.
Unfortunately Macs don't present anything significantly different in the it's own Mac experience over the last decade. Graphics & style vary but the differences are really in-between the lines and the lines are very thin. Macs & PCs now share hardware more than ever and the only difference is the software. Too bad Mac is on a pretty lonely island when it comes to developers.
Affordability? Sure you can afford a $1,500-$2,000 Mac today. But don't you want to upgrade every 3 yrs or so? Or maybe you need two, one for family use and one personal. 2 Macs will cost $3-4K. So over 10 yrs you are looking at $4,500 to $6,000 for 3 Macs... but for a house of two Macs... you are looking at $9,000-$12,000.
Seriously... buying a high priced Mac once is fine but over-and-over again? With the quick changes in technology, changing your computer every 3 yrs is a pretty good run but in a Mac you are kissing $$$ every 3yrs. You can afford to have one Mac today... but you'll realize that there's things better than computers to spend on. That's when the Aha! moment hits you... I can have a PC laptop for $600 plus spare change for a trip to Cancun every 3yrs for the price of a lesser performing Mac. Macs are cool but not as cool as going to Cancun and telling your friends about it. Go to Cancun my friends.
PLUS... Mac is easier to hack. Google Charlie Miller... the 2008 Champion Hacker.
Unfortunately Macs don't present anything significantly different in the it's own Mac experience over the last decade. Graphics & style vary but the differences are really in-between the lines and the lines are very thin. Macs & PCs now share hardware more than ever and the only difference is the software. Too bad Mac is on a pretty lonely island when it comes to developers.
Affordability? Sure you can afford a $1,500-$2,000 Mac today. But don't you want to upgrade every 3 yrs or so? Or maybe you need two, one for family use and one personal. 2 Macs will cost $3-4K. So over 10 yrs you are looking at $4,500 to $6,000 for 3 Macs... but for a house of two Macs... you are looking at $9,000-$12,000.
Seriously... buying a high priced Mac once is fine but over-and-over again? With the quick changes in technology, changing your computer every 3 yrs is a pretty good run but in a Mac you are kissing $$$ every 3yrs. You can afford to have one Mac today... but you'll realize that there's things better than computers to spend on. That's when the Aha! moment hits you... I can have a PC laptop for $600 plus spare change for a trip to Cancun every 3yrs for the price of a lesser performing Mac. Macs are cool but not as cool as going to Cancun and telling your friends about it. Go to Cancun my friends.
PLUS... Mac is easier to hack. Google Charlie Miller... the 2008 Champion Hacker.
There's been comparison about computers and luxury cars. I don't see the connection. Especially when luxury cars are status symbols and computers aren't. Please no debates - if luxury cars weren't status symbols there wouldn't be any cars over $35K.
Regardless of the specifications or what's under the hood of a PC or a Mac and the the fact they are quite similar in user-experience (mouse, click, drop-down menus). Computers aren't considered "status" symbols. Girls and women don't sit around and say "ooooh Steve just got a Mac!" Then they all swoon helplessly. Nope.
Luxury things... are about percieved status. The person driving in that Lexus is somebody. Is it stupid to think so? Sure because we are human and stupidity is part of our OS version 1. So while people will spend more for a Lexus than a Chevy... people will be impressed with the person behind the Lexus(of course the smart ass ones aren't impressed).
Now for people who buy Macs and spend extra $$$... are they buying it because it's some kind of status? I hope not but the extra price they pay it seems like are. Macs are priced as if they are a Lexus or Mercedes. But in fact not.
Lexus or Mercedes are not only status symbols... they are Rolling Status symbols. Where ever they drive people take notice. And yes girls and women do take notice of a Lexus or Mercedes and some are even swooned. Hence you pay for extra for driving the Lexus or Mercedes or BMW. Your choice of premium car is yours to choose. Luxury cars can even make you the "man's man" in many cases but never with a Mac.
So... while pissing money away on a luxury car is irrational and quite stupid there is satsifaction of having status (success is the best revenge) and impress some scantilly clad babes. But pissing money away on a Mac is simply that. You don't get the status symbol and the only person you impress is the hippie dude or chick at the Apple store.
While I own a Mercedes and Porsche, I also have a Honda Accord. It's laughable but unless you own a luxury car, you know the X-factor you get when pulling up in a Mercedes or Porsche. Never in the Honda. And with the rolling status comes perks and opportunities (I won't go into details but if I drove clients or met up with clients in the wife's Accord, I wouldn't be closing as many business deals). While I can splurge for a Mac, which I wouldn't, I find it more of an irrational buy than a Mercedes or Lexus or Porsche.
Regardless of the specifications or what's under the hood of a PC or a Mac and the the fact they are quite similar in user-experience (mouse, click, drop-down menus). Computers aren't considered "status" symbols. Girls and women don't sit around and say "ooooh Steve just got a Mac!" Then they all swoon helplessly. Nope.
Luxury things... are about percieved status. The person driving in that Lexus is somebody. Is it stupid to think so? Sure because we are human and stupidity is part of our OS version 1. So while people will spend more for a Lexus than a Chevy... people will be impressed with the person behind the Lexus(of course the smart ass ones aren't impressed).
Now for people who buy Macs and spend extra $$$... are they buying it because it's some kind of status? I hope not but the extra price they pay it seems like are. Macs are priced as if they are a Lexus or Mercedes. But in fact not.
Lexus or Mercedes are not only status symbols... they are Rolling Status symbols. Where ever they drive people take notice. And yes girls and women do take notice of a Lexus or Mercedes and some are even swooned. Hence you pay for extra for driving the Lexus or Mercedes or BMW. Your choice of premium car is yours to choose. Luxury cars can even make you the "man's man" in many cases but never with a Mac.
So... while pissing money away on a luxury car is irrational and quite stupid there is satsifaction of having status (success is the best revenge) and impress some scantilly clad babes. But pissing money away on a Mac is simply that. You don't get the status symbol and the only person you impress is the hippie dude or chick at the Apple store.
While I own a Mercedes and Porsche, I also have a Honda Accord. It's laughable but unless you own a luxury car, you know the X-factor you get when pulling up in a Mercedes or Porsche. Never in the Honda. And with the rolling status comes perks and opportunities (I won't go into details but if I drove clients or met up with clients in the wife's Accord, I wouldn't be closing as many business deals). While I can splurge for a Mac, which I wouldn't, I find it more of an irrational buy than a Mercedes or Lexus or Porsche.
Powersworder
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Most of my friends are PC users (as we are into gaming), but I do know a couple of mac users. They dont really know anything at all about computers but when asked why they chose Apple they tend to just quote apple marketing slogans at me: "they just work" etc. When pushed for specifics, their lack of understanding becomes quite obvious "they are like, better than pcs, thats why they cost more!".
The funniest thing is that Mac fans seem to think that non-Mac users are jealous of their overpriced, underspecced equipment. I could easily afford to buy any Mac in the product range, but it would be utterly useless for gaming, which is my primary interest in computing. Its not jealously im feeling, I just feel pity for them being suckered in by the apple marketing.
The funniest thing is that Mac fans seem to think that non-Mac users are jealous of their overpriced, underspecced equipment. I could easily afford to buy any Mac in the product range, but it would be utterly useless for gaming, which is my primary interest in computing. Its not jealously im feeling, I just feel pity for them being suckered in by the apple marketing.
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@powersworder: As both a Mac and PS user I disagree. I'm into technology, computers and hardware. To say someone who owns a Mac knows nothing about computers is akin to saying someone who owns a hundred dollar pair of trousers knows nothing about dressing his/herself.
Powersworder
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@JMcEntegart: Sure, that would be a strange thing to say, however I didnt say that. I didnt say that everyone who owns a Mac automatically knows nothing about computers. What I did say was that every Mac user Ive met in 'real life' has bought them for the image and that they were not 'into' computers.
Apples primary selling point is the image and supposed ease of use for people who are having a 'hard time' using windows. Thats fine, but that offers nothing to a computer enthusiast.
Part of the fun of computing is designing your own system and putting it all together. I would imagine that the vast majority of Toms hardware readers have a similar mentality. As such, I dont understand the disproportionately high coverage Apple gets on this site, when they sell closed systems that arent even viable for gaming, which is another major interest for most people who are into high end hardware.
Apples primary selling point is the image and supposed ease of use for people who are having a 'hard time' using windows. Thats fine, but that offers nothing to a computer enthusiast.
Part of the fun of computing is designing your own system and putting it all together. I would imagine that the vast majority of Toms hardware readers have a similar mentality. As such, I dont understand the disproportionately high coverage Apple gets on this site, when they sell closed systems that arent even viable for gaming, which is another major interest for most people who are into high end hardware.
Marcus Yam
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[citation][nom]Powersworder[/nom]Part of the fun of computing is designing your own system and putting it all together. I would imagine that the vast majority of Toms hardware readers have a similar mentality. As such, I dont understand the disproportionately high coverage Apple gets on this site, when they sell closed systems that arent even viable for gaming, which is another major interest for most people who are into high end hardware.[/citation]
First of all, this article that you are commenting on is a clearly speaks of the PC and its various attributes.
I don't deny that gaming is one of the most hardware-intense consumer-level computing applications, and one that really drives PC hardware, but it's not the only reason why we use PCs or Macs.
Tom's Hardware is about computer hardware, not strictly about gaming rigs. Semantics aside, Apple makes computers as well, even though they are often branded and treated as something far removed from PCs. At the end of the day, the goal of a Mac and the PC are no different in that they are computing tools that help us accomplish tasks. The divide within the computer users is unsettling, but I suppose expected.
With regards to your feeling that Apple is covered disproportionately, there are a couple of explanations. Admittedly, Apple is one of the most influential forces in personal computing. Its hardware design alone pervades beyond its own segment and could well be credited with giving us *PC* products such as the Voodoo Envy and Dell Adamo. The all-in-one iMac clones, while not my cup of tea, are entering the market at the 'friendlier' PC pricing, giving consumers what they want. In the end, it seems that consumer gets more choice and options, and that's never a bad thing.
It could be a matter of opinion, but it seems to me that Apple's existence in today's computing market has made life better for all of us, regardless of which ecosystem we buy into.
As Jane said, we here are all very much into technology and hardware. We take a general interest in all things computing, and that's what we strive to cover on Tom's Hardware.
First of all, this article that you are commenting on is a clearly speaks of the PC and its various attributes.
I don't deny that gaming is one of the most hardware-intense consumer-level computing applications, and one that really drives PC hardware, but it's not the only reason why we use PCs or Macs.
Tom's Hardware is about computer hardware, not strictly about gaming rigs. Semantics aside, Apple makes computers as well, even though they are often branded and treated as something far removed from PCs. At the end of the day, the goal of a Mac and the PC are no different in that they are computing tools that help us accomplish tasks. The divide within the computer users is unsettling, but I suppose expected.
With regards to your feeling that Apple is covered disproportionately, there are a couple of explanations. Admittedly, Apple is one of the most influential forces in personal computing. Its hardware design alone pervades beyond its own segment and could well be credited with giving us *PC* products such as the Voodoo Envy and Dell Adamo. The all-in-one iMac clones, while not my cup of tea, are entering the market at the 'friendlier' PC pricing, giving consumers what they want. In the end, it seems that consumer gets more choice and options, and that's never a bad thing.
It could be a matter of opinion, but it seems to me that Apple's existence in today's computing market has made life better for all of us, regardless of which ecosystem we buy into.
As Jane said, we here are all very much into technology and hardware. We take a general interest in all things computing, and that's what we strive to cover on Tom's Hardware.
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@Powersworder: Agreed, building your own is a lot of fun, not to mention way cheaper. I've built computers and I've helped friends build their own but without getting too basic, knitting an Aran jumper is cheaper than buying one in Dublin Woolen Mills (by about 60e). That said, depsite the fact that I can knit (and really enjoy it), I still bought my dad a jumper from DWS last Christmas.
As far as owning a Mac goes, I like the hardware and I like the OS. I don't think it needs any further explanation than that. What I pay for my computer is no one's business but my own.
Why do we cover Mac stuff? Apple has become a serious competitor for PC makers. Whether or not PC enthusiasts feel Macs are a fair match for the hardware available today, Apple shifts a lot of machines and we (at least I) feel it's really important to keep you guys up to scratch with what the competition is at.
As far as owning a Mac goes, I like the hardware and I like the OS. I don't think it needs any further explanation than that. What I pay for my computer is no one's business but my own.
Why do we cover Mac stuff? Apple has become a serious competitor for PC makers. Whether or not PC enthusiasts feel Macs are a fair match for the hardware available today, Apple shifts a lot of machines and we (at least I) feel it's really important to keep you guys up to scratch with what the competition is at.
Powersworder
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@Marcus: "Tom's Hardware is about computer hardware" Yes, this is the way ive always seen the site. Reviews and hardware comparisons on pc components such as mobos, cpus, gpus etc. The thing is with Apple though, you cant 'build your own'. All the hardware reviews are completely redundant to an Apple user, because they cant choose their computer components in the same way someone running a MS machine can.
I never really saw Toms hardware as a "gadget" site, and I remember when you guys have run articles on cameras etc, youve been hammered in the reader comments. As you cant actually customise and configure an Apple machine it falls more into the 'gadget' category than computer hardware.
I come to Tomshardware to keep up with reviews on individual PC components, so that when I build my next machine, ill be able to know what CPU, GPU, mobo, harddrive, RAM, etc, etc I should be using. There arent many websites that do this kind of in-depth testing, so its what makes the site valuable. If you are intending on switching the focus of Tomshardware to be more gadget focused, there are many more sites available that cover that kind of thing. There are also a large number of dedicated Mac sites, so Im not sure why you guys feel you need to branch out to cover them as well.
That there is a divide between the computer users should really be expected. On one hand you have people who care about image and on the other hand, you have people who are concerned about hardware performance. Usually, the ones who care about hardware performance do so because they are into gaming, which demands high powered machines. Really, these two user groups share no similarities at all except in common functions like web-browsing etc, but any low end machine can do that. Basically until Apple starts producing customisable gaming rigs I have no interest in their product lines whatsoever.
@JMcEntegart: Im sorry, you lost me on your knitting anology. Im into computer hardware, not knitware. 😉
Apple has roughly 8% of the pc marketshare in the US (considerably less globally) so they dont really shift that much. As I mentioned before, they just arent interested in the pc enthusiast market. They are targeting the image conscious consumer, who isnt really interested in the intricacies of computing. Until they offer customisable gaming rigs, I dont even consider them to be competition.
I never really saw Toms hardware as a "gadget" site, and I remember when you guys have run articles on cameras etc, youve been hammered in the reader comments. As you cant actually customise and configure an Apple machine it falls more into the 'gadget' category than computer hardware.
I come to Tomshardware to keep up with reviews on individual PC components, so that when I build my next machine, ill be able to know what CPU, GPU, mobo, harddrive, RAM, etc, etc I should be using. There arent many websites that do this kind of in-depth testing, so its what makes the site valuable. If you are intending on switching the focus of Tomshardware to be more gadget focused, there are many more sites available that cover that kind of thing. There are also a large number of dedicated Mac sites, so Im not sure why you guys feel you need to branch out to cover them as well.
That there is a divide between the computer users should really be expected. On one hand you have people who care about image and on the other hand, you have people who are concerned about hardware performance. Usually, the ones who care about hardware performance do so because they are into gaming, which demands high powered machines. Really, these two user groups share no similarities at all except in common functions like web-browsing etc, but any low end machine can do that. Basically until Apple starts producing customisable gaming rigs I have no interest in their product lines whatsoever.
@JMcEntegart: Im sorry, you lost me on your knitting anology. Im into computer hardware, not knitware. 😉
Apple has roughly 8% of the pc marketshare in the US (considerably less globally) so they dont really shift that much. As I mentioned before, they just arent interested in the pc enthusiast market. They are targeting the image conscious consumer, who isnt really interested in the intricacies of computing. Until they offer customisable gaming rigs, I dont even consider them to be competition.
Wrong. It comes with a 1 yr warranty, like the Dell and just about every other PC out there.
Unnecessary items. I can see adding the VGA for comparison since the Dell has a VGA port, however, most users don't need, won't buy, and won't use one. Adding the DVI adapter only serves to increase the price of the Mac since the Dell doesn't have one either.
But wait, the Dell includes MS-Works, the Mac doesn't. Add iWork to the Mac for $49. An even better comparison would be to add MS-Office Home and Student to each, which would lessen the advantage for Dell, but I'll skip that for this comparison.
That changes your comparison to Mac @ $1523+tax vs. Dell @ $1119+tax, = $404+tax difference. Yes, the Dell does have a faster CPU and a larger/faster HD (of course, with Vista, it will need both), but your $700 price difference is actually only $400+tax.
For the typical consumer, that could be a valid comparison. However, the typical consumer, especially a budget conscious consumer, probably wouldn't buy the 4GB upgrade for the Mac and 2GB on a Mac is fine for a typical user. They also wouldn't likely buy the 250GB HD upgrade. So a more realistic comparison is Mac @ $1348+tax vs. Dell @ $1119+tax (Dell doesn't offer less RAM, a slower CPU, or a smaller HD on the Studio XPS 13). Then again, if we're talking about a really budget conscious consumer and the $229 difference was an issue, they would price a comparably equipped White Macbook @ $1074+tax, which is $45 less than the Dell.
Of course, the really budget conscious could go with the Dell Inspiron 13 for $783+tax, but if you've ever used Vista on a machine with only an Intel GMA X3100, you know that's painful.
Since Apple and Dell almost never offer machines with the same CPU, chipset, GPU, RAM, and HD, it's virtually impossible to compare identical hardware (excluding the vendor designed components such as case, battery, keyboard).
None of the above are truly comparable hardware and software, but they are representative of what people actually buy. The Dell is cheaper in all but one case, but the difference isn't anywhere near the $718 the original poster claimed.
All of that is without considering that Mac OS X is full featured with connectivity to business networks, etc. will Vista Home is limited. While it might not make a difference to a typical home user, Mac OS X is more accurately compared to Vista Business or Vista Ultimate, and that alone accounts for $100-$150 of the "Apple tax" when comparing to PCs with Vista Home Premium.
You've completely missed the point. Excluding the readers of Tom's Hardware and other enthusiast sites, most people don't WANT to have to learn about computers or build their own computer any more than the average person wants to build his own car or be a mechanic. They only buy a computer as a tool to accomplish work, the less they "have to know about computers" to accomplish that, the better they like it.
Also, they're not just quoting Apple's marketing slogans, Apple is quoting what users have been telling Apple for 20 years. The fact is, Windows (and Linux) require the user to know/learn a lot more about computers to install, use, and maintain them than do Macs. They also require a lot more time to maintain. The time saved in not "learning about computers" and saved in maintaining them is worth something to most people.
I've built computers from components, hundreds of them. Except for a few specific applications, it's a waste of my time to do so. For < $200 more than I can build my own, I can buy a machine that is already tested and assembled and know all the components work well together. In most cases, my time is worth more than that price difference. When it's not, I spec and/or build my own machine.
If you have the time, knowledge, and interest to do so, I encourage you to build your own machine. Learn as much as you can about computers, then apply that knowledge to making computers faster, easier, and less work for the 99% of users who don't care about computers other than using them as a tool to have fun, find information, communicate, and accomplish work. It's a great foundation for a career. When you have that knowledge and you understand that most people don't WANT to learn about computers, they just want to use them, then you'll understand why people prefer the Mac, and you'll be someone who can make computers easier to use for those people. So stop bashing the Mac and recognize (as Microsoft has) that Apple is showing you a way (not necessarily the only one) to make computers more accessible to the billions of people who don't know much about computers. Looking at what Apple is doing and bringing as much of that as you can to the masses is a way to make billions. Stop thinking of Apple and the Mac as your enemy and realize they could be your guide to wealth.
My computer knowledge is way above average, even compared to the readers of Tom's Hardware and other enthusiast sites. I've done everything from component level design and imbedded firmware, to low level hardware diagnostic and repair, to building systems, to writing OS and networking stacks, to writing multiuser databases, to writing high-performance multi-user applications. I'll put my computer knowledge up against 99+% of the readers of Tom's and other enthusiast sites. I prefer Macs (including the one I'm using to post this).
See above, I'm a programmer and I've built hundreds of PC's. Macs are no joke. You should actually try a Mac for a week before flaming them and Mac users. Get a life.
Apples's aren't a joke. We understand that. They are just over priced toys for people who don't understand the freedom of choice. Apple choice is to use only Apple products. PC is freedom to have anything. Hell why doesn't Apple make it's OS PC compatible. The technology is there but Oh that's too much choice from Apple.
What's harder to do? Make something one way... and only your way? MS is a major pain in the arse with their DRM tactics but Apple is in a whole different league. They own everything according to them.
What's harder to do? Make something one way... and only your way? MS is a major pain in the arse with their DRM tactics but Apple is in a whole different league. They own everything according to them.
If you don't understand that 99+% of users don't want to build their own PC, much less want to know how to build their own PC, then you'll never understand why HP, Dell, Apple, Acer, and Lenovo are the largest computer makers. You'll also never have any significant influence on those manufacturers or their users.
Fine, don't buy machines from those companies. Build your own and save a lot of money. Just remember, that the only reason you can build your own cheaply today is because those companies made computers accessible to to masses and the mass production of those machines drove down the prices so that you can build your own machine. Stop bashing the companies that have made it possible for you to enjoy your hobby at ridiculously low prices.
You're the enthusiasts who can and do build your own machines. Great, enjoy it. And understand that you're not the target audience for those manufacturers, and quit bashing anyone and everyone who does buy one.
Fine, don't buy machines from those companies. Build your own and save a lot of money. Just remember, that the only reason you can build your own cheaply today is because those companies made computers accessible to to masses and the mass production of those machines drove down the prices so that you can build your own machine. Stop bashing the companies that have made it possible for you to enjoy your hobby at ridiculously low prices.
You're the enthusiasts who can and do build your own machines. Great, enjoy it. And understand that you're not the target audience for those manufacturers, and quit bashing anyone and everyone who does buy one.
keither5150
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@ Geoffs,
You are rare. Ok, so you like the OS, I get it but how does an intelligent person justify the extra cost?
Try comparing Apples to Apples.
If you leave building your own machine out of it, you can still purchase the same or better specs for about 1/2 the price. For example,
Dell, Core i7 920, 6gigs of ddr3, 512MB ATI hd 4670,16x dvd, 19in1 card reader, Vista Home Premium, 2 year warranty, 24" Full HD 2048 x 1152 LCD. Pick one up today at Costco.
All this for $1199.00 No need to list a comparable Mac is there?
That's why I think that they are a joke. If they were half the price, I wouldn't mind having one for my second machine.
Now would I buy this costco machine, probably not. I prefer to hand pick my items as I like to overclock my systems. I like the freedom to choose each and every part. I didn't mean to insult people who don't build their own systems.
Maybe I should rephrase one of my earlier statements.
I have never met anyone who posses a high level of computer knowledge that prefers Macs.
I also have about 2 years experience with the Mac OS. It is a nice OS, very lean and fast.....but not worth it for me to pay no more than $100 more than a vista rig.
BTW, if you haven't tried an I7 yet, it is awesome. Cut down my DVD encoding and (media center ) by about 40%-50% . They also are far superior when it comes to gaming. The core2 duo are not in the same league. I went from an E8400 clocked at 3.8 to the i7 920 @ 2.67. I clocked it back to stock since I have to mod my case for my new cooler to fit. The stock i7 outperforms the overclocked core2duo by a large margin.
Back to the Mac thing..... I just don't get it.
No offense but I still get a chuckle from the average mac guy.
You are rare. Ok, so you like the OS, I get it but how does an intelligent person justify the extra cost?
Try comparing Apples to Apples.
If you leave building your own machine out of it, you can still purchase the same or better specs for about 1/2 the price. For example,
Dell, Core i7 920, 6gigs of ddr3, 512MB ATI hd 4670,16x dvd, 19in1 card reader, Vista Home Premium, 2 year warranty, 24" Full HD 2048 x 1152 LCD. Pick one up today at Costco.
All this for $1199.00 No need to list a comparable Mac is there?
That's why I think that they are a joke. If they were half the price, I wouldn't mind having one for my second machine.
Now would I buy this costco machine, probably not. I prefer to hand pick my items as I like to overclock my systems. I like the freedom to choose each and every part. I didn't mean to insult people who don't build their own systems.
Maybe I should rephrase one of my earlier statements.
I have never met anyone who posses a high level of computer knowledge that prefers Macs.
I also have about 2 years experience with the Mac OS. It is a nice OS, very lean and fast.....but not worth it for me to pay no more than $100 more than a vista rig.
BTW, if you haven't tried an I7 yet, it is awesome. Cut down my DVD encoding and (media center ) by about 40%-50% . They also are far superior when it comes to gaming. The core2 duo are not in the same league. I went from an E8400 clocked at 3.8 to the i7 920 @ 2.67. I clocked it back to stock since I have to mod my case for my new cooler to fit. The stock i7 outperforms the overclocked core2duo by a large margin.
Back to the Mac thing..... I just don't get it.
No offense but I still get a chuckle from the average mac guy.
keither5150
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Before anyone makes light of me for going from Core2duo to i7. The upgrade only cost me about $105 after selling my old gaming rig on Kijiji.
Powersworder
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[citation][nom]geoffs[/nom]You've completely missed the point. Excluding the readers of Tom's Hardware and other enthusiast sites, most people don't WANT to have to learn about computers or build their own computer any more than the average person wants to build his own car or be a mechanic. They only buy a computer as a tool to accomplish work, the less they "have to know about computers" to accomplish that, the better they like it.[/citation]
Actually its you who has completely missed the point. This is a hardware enthusiast website, and is meant to be catering to enthusiasts.
Im more than happy that people who dont know anything about computers love Macs, how nice for them. Just because they love their equivalent of a Fisher price 'my first computer', it doesnt mean we should be getting a deluge of pro-mac articles on what is meant to be an enthusiast site. Even this article has a pro-Mac bias to it.
I just dont understand how journalists on a hardware enthusiasts site can be so pro-Mac, when Apple is the antithesis of everything hardware enthusiasts and gamers stands for.
Actually its you who has completely missed the point. This is a hardware enthusiast website, and is meant to be catering to enthusiasts.
Im more than happy that people who dont know anything about computers love Macs, how nice for them. Just because they love their equivalent of a Fisher price 'my first computer', it doesnt mean we should be getting a deluge of pro-mac articles on what is meant to be an enthusiast site. Even this article has a pro-Mac bias to it.
I just dont understand how journalists on a hardware enthusiasts site can be so pro-Mac, when Apple is the antithesis of everything hardware enthusiasts and gamers stands for.
I think they should show programs being run on an os x platform vs. a windows platform, and show that the same program can be done as well on a pc as opposed to a mac. Next show some next gen games being run on the pc that aren't even available for os x, then show the pc being several hundreds of dollars cheaper. Exploit the weaknesses of macs as they have windows based systems.
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