Request for comments - Tremere Trophy Hunters

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In message <1120248922.897266.167790@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> writes:
>In the case of this deck, Absolution of the Diabolist would be inferior
>to just adding one Trophy: Diablerie.

Not necessarily. It does rather depend whether or not you can guarantee
the Red Listing prior to diablerie. A combination of intercept and/or
Secure Haven, for instance, may cause you some problems - at which
point, other options might be wanted.

On balance, T:Diablerie is probably better, but it does depend on what
you're expecting to face.

--
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In message <1120253112.935618.302460@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> decided that using the quotation
functions of Google was too difficult and then wrote:
>It's going to depend on how the crypt ends up.

No, that's not the only thing it depends on.

>It's only when non-Aziz minions are
>Diablerizing non-Red List minions

And in the right/wrong environment (depending on your perspective), it
could be rather hard to Red List minions. You may well be able to pull
it off, but even fairly light intercept could well prove to be a
sticking point.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
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In message <3igbc1h8uj2ptqtc3japl5s5f9fcd5kbus@4ax.com>, Morgan Vening
<morgan@optusnet.com.au> writes:
>On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:47:34 +0100, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
>wrote:
>>Absolution of the Diabolist uses master phase actions (which are wanted
>>for Red List). If you can achieve the same thing with minion phase
>>resources, that's potentially a better deal for the deck.
>
>I figured with 3 Parthenons, 5 Bum's Rush (probably should be Big
>Game), and twelve 'fetchable' Masters (8 Trophy, 4 Discipline), MPA
>wouldn't be THAT big a deal. Given that 10 cards are assigned to the
>Anarch Solution, I thought it was worth considering.

I don't trust Parthenon. I mean, it's a great card but that's half the
problem...

In general, if I see someone playing The Parthenon, I see it as a point
of attack if I can. Usually, someone using Parthenon is playing a lot
of master cards and/or master phase actions. Taking it out is a good
thing to do, as a result, to try to cause hand-jam and force a larger
number of tactical choices onto them - do I play Master A *or* Master B,
instead of playing both? There are other similar sorts of cards which
are a nexus for other strategies - some unusual plays of Discipline
cards, say (Obfuscate on that Brujah, eh? If I interfere here...), Clan
Impersonation, or more recently various of the event cards. They're
setup cards for something more significant, rather than (e.g.) a Laptop
on a bleeder, or superior Celerity in a Toreador deck, or whatever.

Sideways discussion over...


Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's (Absolution of the Diabolist) an
altogether bad idea. But I also like the Anarch solution as it works
nicely on the level of politics, and I always think that (if all other
things are equal) having more votes is a Good Thing. Of course, all
other things might not be equal but, yeah, I'm a slut for political
influence. Not necessarily being able to control a table, but being
able to interfere with someone else's plans is something I like being
able to do, where possible. Debate, discussion and bargaining chips are
things I like to be able to generate when I can. Not that I want to use
them all the time but I like having the option, should it prove useful.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
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A few questions:

a) Why Bum's Rush and not Big Game?

b) How will you deal with S:CE, dodge, and damage prevention?

c) Why Trophy: Discipline?

Thanks.
 
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In message <7gecc1l9993v15i5m6alh6svn2av5talha@4ax.com>, salem
<salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> writes:
>i couldn't be bothered finding a Red List Rule reference card, but i
>am presuming that the action provided my "marking" a red list minion
>is repeatable?

Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red
List minion for the current turn. Any ready vampire she controls may
enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth (D) action
that costs 1 blood. Each vampire can take this action only once each
^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^
turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action
^^^^
(including diablerie), his controller may go through her library, ash
heap and/or hand to get a master trophy card to put on that vampire and
then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her hand size as
necessary. Other trophies may be moved to this vampire, as well (see
section 1.6.2). This is done before the blood hunt referendum is called,
if any.

:-(

--
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PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
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On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:47:34 +0100, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
wrote:

>In message <a5v9c15sgvkte3p0uc3ejbnuqfe07vmvg0@4ax.com>, Morgan Vening
><morgan@optusnet.com.au> writes:
>>I'd probably go with Tremere Justicar + Bewitching (Rebekah has PRE,
>>and negotiation for voting power should get the rest), and some
>>Absolution of the Diabolist (That'd be enough Justicars to make the
>>quantity of title irrelevant for Blood Hunts).
>
>Absolution of the Diabolist uses master phase actions (which are wanted
>for Red List). If you can achieve the same thing with minion phase
>resources, that's potentially a better deal for the deck.

I figured with 3 Parthenons, 5 Bum's Rush (probably should be Big
Game), and twelve 'fetchable' Masters (8 Trophy, 4 Discipline), MPA
wouldn't be THAT big a deal. Given that 10 cards are assigned to the
Anarch Solution, I thought it was worth considering.

Morgan Vening
 
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Preston wrote:
> The Lasombra wrote:
>>On 1 Jul 2005 13:14:13 -0700, "Preston" <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>most other players are more than happy to see someone else's vamp Red
>>>Listed.
>>
>>That is definitely a mistake on their part.
>>If they didn't put Trophy's in their own deck, they cannot make much
>>advantage out of a Red List minion appearing on the table, and it will
>>only benefit you.
>>
>>I would never expect to see Trumped Up Charges pass unless I had vote
>>lock. If I have vote lock, I have better actions to take than enter
>>combat.
>
> Let's put it this way. Your predator is sneaking and bleeding you into
> oblivion. Your grand predator calls a vote to red list one of your
> predators minions. How do you vote?

Way to pick the example most favorable to your position, while ignoring
all the rest of them. We call this "corner-case", and examples like
this are typically to be IGNORED during analysis, as they only produce
results you want to hear, not accurate information... but we've already
established that's your style anyway, honestly.

Even given that caveat, in the situation above your predator, grandprey
and prey all vote against this -- your grandprey doesn't want your
grandpredator to get a Trophy while burning one of his prey's minions,
and your own prey doesn't want your predator to quit putting pressure on
you. It comes down to whoever has the votes, and the odds are _against_
the person calling Trumped-Up Charges... especially if he has no more
than 3 votes on the table, which are no guarantee of passing anything.

In most situations, however, nothing will be so cut-and-dried.

While I'm not entirely sure the deck concept in general can handle
itself at a tier 1 level (no bleed mods; long way to go when your prey
stops transferring), you have clearly overlooked the biggest advantage
of using the Anarchs angle: You can get a title without having to pass a
vote. In a single turn, Muaziz can Go Anarch, untap, become a Baron,
Freak Drive, and Red List a minion -- all at stealth. You don't need to
Red List Arika in that deck; the 5 Bum's Rushes will do well enough.
You just need to Red List something easily burnable.

I personally use Galaric's Legacy instead, simply because people tend to
block the Go Anarch stuff. Muaziz' special helps Go Anarch noticeably,
but I think 2nd Tradition is going to be a major problem for the deck.

As far as the deck you posted; it looks nothing like the Lasombra's
deck, and at 0- and +1 stealth, its Red List angle won't go off...
leaving it looking much like a classic Tremere "bleed a little, block a
little, Theft a little, curl up and die a little" deck that would _most_
benefit from removing all the Red List cards and adding Seductions.

--
Derek

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On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 00:31:08 -0400, The Lasombra
<TheLasombra@hotmail.com> scrawled:

>Deck Name: Tremere Trophy Hunters
>Created By: The Lasombra
>Description: Muaziz and Rebecca join the Anarch movement in order to
>go Trophy hunting. +1 stealth on all actions will go a long way to
>helping this deck flow.

the core ideas i like from what other people have posted are:

rutor's or two
permanent agg (ivory bow, etc)
ankara
magic of the smith x 3 or so.

i couldn't be bothered finding a Red List Rule reference card, but i
am presuming that the action provided my "marking" a red list minion
is repeatable? it's not an action provided by a card in play, and is
not a card itself (the enter combat action that costs a
blood)....hmmm....

maybe push the deck up to 53 Freak Drives? :)


salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
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Hey Derek,

First off, I made a thread for you to post our exchange. Actually, we
have been talking about what a ass you are over at Ash Heap. If you
want, you can post it over there, because they have actually been
asking to see what an ass you are. If, on the other hand, you want to
post it here, feel free. I made a thread for you already.

I am glad you like the Ventrue deck. Do I have your permission to post,
Derek's Seal of Approval in the Decklist? As for the Malakavian deck,
I'm sorry you don't approve. Of course, the place to post any
criticisms thereof would be in the actual BWP: Malakavian thread.

As for Trumped-Up Charges, it is significantly different than a cross
table Praxis Seizure: it does not gain any extra votes to come back and
haunt you. It instead targets someone's vampire for destruction. You
may or may not like that depending on your relation to that player. The
typical VTES dynamic is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so
getting cross table support for a trumped-up charges is not all that
unlikely.

Secondly, the decklist I posted will tend to come out pretty fast.
Getting a 2nd turn Ulegh or Cardano is not all that uncommon. They can
then go to Trumped-Up Charges or Red List a long minion of your
predator or prey without much trouble. But, what if they don't. Well,
really, who cares. The way I see it, the deck at it's essence is a
Tremere combat deck with Trophies not a Tremere Trophy deck with
combat. If all Red List is is an invitation to combat then oh well-
time to burn something. It is the deck that devotes so many resources
to Trophies that had a problem if the combo doesn't happen.

I look forward to reading our correspondence.

Cheers,
Preston
 
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> > I'm sorry you don't approve. Of course, the place to post any
> > criticisms thereof would be in the actual BWP: Malakavian thread.
>
> And because it's not in the 'proper' thread (OH NOES!), it's completely
> paralyzed you and rendered you unable to respond to any of those
> criticisms, I see.
>

Eh, it's a bit strange to discuss a BWP: Malkavian deck in the middle
of a Tremere Trophy hunting deck. Also, one has to wonder if we are
really talking cards at this point. Are you really just so vehemently
opposed to Disguised Weapons in a Malkavian Deck or are you trying to
escalate a pissing contest? That you didn't post your BWP: Malkavian
criticisms to that thread and are instead turning this thread into a
"10 things i hate about you thread" would suggest the latter.
<snip>?
> With only 3 Zillah's Valley and 1 Info Highway to choose from, getting
> one in your opening hand is not all THAT likely, unless you shuffle a
> little bit funny perhaps?

You forgot the the Dreams of the SPhinx and the Arcane Libraries.
>

<snip>

> And this is exactly why I pointed out that your deck is not the same as
> The Lasombra's. His deck is a Tremere Trophy deck. It intends to use
> Trophies. That's the whole point of it. Yours has a Trophy sideline;
> as such, it doesn't care if Trumped-Up Charges fails.
>

Ah well I guess that's my philosophy on Trophies. They should be a
sideline to what your deck does. not the main function.
 
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"Arcane Library won't help you get Ulugh Beg on turn 2 since you need a

Tremere already in play to even use it. It's hot tech, but it's
middlegame hot tech, not quick opener tech.
Dreams only gets you one extra transfer twice; hope you started with at

least 3 transfers, and even then you can only get Cardano on turn 2,
not
Ulugh. "

If you start with 4 transfers, you can play a turn 1 dreams, bring out
Mustafa with 2 transfers, put the other 2 on Cardano plus one for the
Dreams. Next turn you can play the Library, use the library plus the
dreams, plus the 4 transfers = turn 2 Cardano.

In regards to using Seductions, I prefer the Trophies.

As for your Malkavian criticisms, I will move those the the Malkavian
thread.
 
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I'll just go back to my original point that with the Dreams, the
Highway, the Valleys, and the Arcane Library, you can get the big
titled minions out pretty early.
 
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Preston wrote:
> Hey Derek,
>
> First off, I made a thread for you to post our exchange. Actually, we

Done, and done.

> I am glad you like the Ventrue deck. Do I have your permission to post,
> Derek's Seal of Approval in the Decklist? As for the Malakavian deck,

Permission granted. Those who care will approve. Those who don't care
will, well, not care.

I say what I say, and if people like it, they do, and if they don't,
they don't. I'd love it to death if everyone agreed with everything I
ever said; and if it ever actually happened that way, I'd look over my
shoulder for the Candid Camera setup.

> I'm sorry you don't approve. Of course, the place to post any
> criticisms thereof would be in the actual BWP: Malakavian thread.

And because it's not in the 'proper' thread (OH NOES!), it's completely
paralyzed you and rendered you unable to respond to any of those
criticisms, I see.

> As for Trumped-Up Charges, it is significantly different than a cross
> table Praxis Seizure: it does not gain any extra votes to come back and
> haunt you. It instead targets someone's vampire for destruction. You

No. It gains someone else a Trophy that will come back and haunt you.
A popular one, unsurprisingly, is Trophy: Domain, which is a
particularly stout card if you can figure out a way to get it on a minion.

Putting Domain on Muaziz is like saying "This Amaranth machine here,
who's likely always going to be full of blood, is now going to be able
to untap and block with +1 intercept a LOT, and later, YOUR vampires can
have the chance to visit Mr. Amaranth."

If you know that you won't ever be taking actions at less than +2
stealth, perhaps Domain is not so meaningful to you. Few decks can have
that confidence.

> may or may not like that depending on your relation to that player. The
> typical VTES dynamic is that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so

Or at least that's how it appears at first. But realistically, the
enemy of your enemy will LATER be your enemy... so allowing things like
Domain into play is just a bad plan, no matter what. At least if you
intend to sweep.

> getting cross table support for a trumped-up charges is not all that
> unlikely.

And it's not that likely, either... especially when you're playing
Muaziz, Cardano, or Ulugh Beg. Most people expect a Burst/Amaranth,
Ivory Bow/Amaranth, or Dawn Op/Weather Control/Skin of Night/you guessed
it, Amaranth from these vampires, because they're awfully good at doing
exactly that. Muaziz more so than any other, obviously, because she
fears no Blood Hunt.

Trying to pass Trumped-up Charges guarantees to everyone else that
you're playing with an easy way to burn vampires; you might as well open
your hand and show them the Bursts. What everyone else must ask
themselves immediately is: can my deck deal with aggressive
burnination, when this deck becomes my enemy? If the answer is "no" or
"maybe", Trumped-Up Charges will be failed if possible.

> Secondly, the decklist I posted will tend to come out pretty fast.
> Getting a 2nd turn Ulegh or Cardano is not all that uncommon. They can

With only 3 Zillah's Valley and 1 Info Highway to choose from, getting
one in your opening hand is not all THAT likely, unless you shuffle a
little bit funny perhaps?

> then go to Trumped-Up Charges or Red List a long minion of your
> predator or prey without much trouble. But, what if they don't. Well,
> really, who cares. The way I see it, the deck at it's essence is a
> Tremere combat deck with Trophies not a Tremere Trophy deck with
> combat.

And this is exactly why I pointed out that your deck is not the same as
The Lasombra's. His deck is a Tremere Trophy deck. It intends to use
Trophies. That's the whole point of it. Yours has a Trophy sideline;
as such, it doesn't care if Trumped-Up Charges fails.

--
Derek

insert clever quotation here
 
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Preston wrote:
>>>I'm sorry you don't approve. Of course, the place to post any
>>>criticisms thereof would be in the actual BWP: Malakavian thread.
>>
>>And because it's not in the 'proper' thread (OH NOES!), it's completely
>>paralyzed you and rendered you unable to respond to any of those
>>criticisms, I see.
>
> Eh, it's a bit strange to discuss a BWP: Malkavian deck in the middle
> of a Tremere Trophy hunting deck. Also, one has to wonder if we are
> really talking cards at this point. Are you really just so vehemently
> opposed to Disguised Weapons in a Malkavian Deck or are you trying to

Not at all. The Disguised .44s, for example, are an excellent addition
to most OBF-based stealth/bleed decks, as it increases the threshhold of
combat people require in order to off your minions -- they need ranged
combat or a consistent maneuver, for example. Seems small, but can
matter a lot. And if someone with 1 blood carelessly tries to block
you, you always have the option of allowing yourself to be blocked and
popping his minion as a surprise.

The Disguised Blow Torches, however, are just awful. They put your
minions in combat at close range, where they're guaranteed to be punched
for at least 1. They encourage the player to LET their minions get into
combat, even worse in a deckstyle that runs best when it's being
non-interactive. When a stealth/bleed deck trades torporized minions
with other decks, it is often losing the trade unless it can follow up
with something like Grave Robbing. (at least makes the Torch bearable,
but I can understand if you don't want to hand out Grave Robbings
willy-nilly.)

>>With only 3 Zillah's Valley and 1 Info Highway to choose from, getting
>>one in your opening hand is not all THAT likely, unless you shuffle a
>>little bit funny perhaps?
>
> You forgot the the Dreams of the SPhinx and the Arcane Libraries.

Arcane Library won't help you get Ulugh Beg on turn 2 since you need a
Tremere already in play to even use it. It's hot tech, but it's
middlegame hot tech, not quick opener tech.

Dreams only gets you one extra transfer twice; hope you started with at
least 3 transfers, and even then you can only get Cardano on turn 2, not
Ulugh.

> Ah well I guess that's my philosophy on Trophies. They should be a
> sideline to what your deck does. not the main function.

So far, that seems to be the most consistent way to use them.
Unfortunately, this Ulughs another question, which I've already brought
up in a different form earlier this thread: Is it better to simply use
8x Seduction in that posted deck, instead of the Trophy cards?

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
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Preston wrote:
Derek wrote:
>> "Arcane Library won't help you get Ulugh Beg on turn 2 since you need a
>> Tremere already in play to even use it. It's hot tech, but it's
>> middlegame hot tech, not quick opener tech.
>>
>> Dreams only gets you one extra transfer twice; hope you started with at
>> least 3 transfers, and even then you can only get Cardano on turn 2,
>> not Ulugh. "
>
> If you start with 4 transfers, you can play a turn 1 dreams, bring out
> Mustafa with 2 transfers, put the other 2 on Cardano plus one for the
> Dreams. Next turn you can play the Library, use the library plus the
> dreams, plus the 4 transfers = turn 2 Cardano.

What do you do, table-shuffle face up to get this draw, and bribe the
judge to make sure you sit in seat 4 or 5? :) Dude, please. =)

With only 3x Dreams and 2x Library in a 90-card deck, I refer you to the
definition of "corner-case" again; please don't waste everyone's time
with silly examples like this one.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
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Preston wrote:
> I'll just go back to my original point that with the Dreams, the
> Highway, the Valleys, and the Arcane Library, you can get the big
> titled minions out pretty early.

Correction: your original statement was...

"Secondly, the decklist I posted will tend to come out pretty fast.
Getting a 2nd turn Ulegh or Cardano is not all that uncommon."

I will maintain that it IS uncommon to see the big guys on turn 2, and
that it will NOT "tend" to come out pretty fast.

It's certainly possible to get the big titled guys out early, because
you do have a chance of drawing Zillah's or Info Highway. But if you
have to go through the full influence rigmarole, you're likely to be
stuck defending with a 10-cap and a dingus for awhile... which might be
fatal against a fast ("I Seduce Ulugh Beg") predator.

- --
Derek

insert clever quotation here
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James,

The deck I submitted has 6 weenies who come out early to deflect
bleeds. The deck list I submitted will probably die to an aggressive
fast focused deck, but it will probably last a few turns longer than
the original deck which is focused entirely on Trophy's.
 
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In message <1120361265.579093.106320@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> writes:
>If you start with 4 transfers, you can play a turn 1 dreams, bring out
>Mustafa with 2 transfers, put the other 2 on Cardano plus one for the
>Dreams.

Picking best case scenarios isn't generally sensible.

In your first turn, you get (on average) 2.8 transfers on a 5 player
table: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 4 = 14. Divide by 5, so that's 2.8.

On a 4 player table, you have an average of 2.5.

The biggest problem in the early game is often along the lines of "What
happens when a weenie deck comes and Computer Hacks me repeatedly?" Of
course, it's not just bleed decks, or even just weenie decks, that can
be scary in the early game, because there are other options - e.g.
weenies playing KRC and some Praxis Seizures/Crusades (delete to taste).

But when that happens (as it can and quite possibly will), the
difference between the average number of transfers you get and the
optimum number of transfers you want can delay you by a turn, which is
just enough for a weenie hoard to come and smack you silly.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
G

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On Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:26:16 +0100, James Coupe <james@zephyr.org.uk>
scrawled:

>In message <7gecc1l9993v15i5m6alh6svn2av5talha@4ax.com>, salem
><salem_christ.geo@hotmail.com> writes:
>>i couldn't be bothered finding a Red List Rule reference card, but i
>>am presuming that the action provided my "marking" a red list minion
>>is repeatable?
>
>Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red
>List minion for the current turn. Any ready vampire she controls may
>enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth (D) action
>that costs 1 blood. Each vampire can take this action only once each
> ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^
>turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a (D) action
>^^^^
>(including diablerie), his controller may go through her library, ash
>heap and/or hand to get a master trophy card to put on that vampire and
>then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her hand size as
>necessary. Other trophies may be moved to this vampire, as well (see
>section 1.6.2). This is done before the blood hunt referendum is called,
>if any.
>
>:-(

damnit. i suspected as much, but...rrrr. how dare they do things like
this in the "rules". next thing you know people will actually wait
until i have finished my discard phase before starting their turn....


salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
 
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James,

I am replying to your post without a single quotation. This scandalous
and supercilious use of the news reader is truly unconscionable, By all
means report me to the internet police at once. Clearly, I am not to be
trusted. My VEKN number must be revoked at once and I need to be
reported to the department of homeland security. Obviously, my days on
the MtG Pro Tour have left me so amazingly arrogant that I now
didactically dictating deck designs of dubious distinction to my fellow
denizens.

ACK! Run for the hills.
 
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I think you would get more consistent results if you kept your 8
Amaranths, but used the other 16 slots to build around agg weapons,
maybe 4 weapons (or 3 weapons and the superbowl) and 4 Magic of the
Smith, and Groundfighting. You are going anarch anyway, and
Groundfighting + weapon is hot, hot, hot.

Oh wait, I just double checked before I posted, and you only have 6
Amaranths. I'd want 8, and I wouldn't want to lose any freak drives for
them, which I guess leaves dropping two wakes for two more Amaranths.
That would be OK with me, since if the deck is flowing you can probably
leave smoking holes where minions used to be, offsetting the need to
wake as much.

--

David Cherryholmes
 
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In message <1120401284.618993.41770@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Preston <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> decided that he couldn't be
bothered to quote anything of the article to which he is responding in
order to make it harder to understand any thread in which he
participates. However, he then goes on to write:
>James,
>
>The deck I submitted has 6 weenies who come out early to deflect
>bleeds.

Irrelevant to the point at hand, which would be simpler to see if you
bothered to quote relevant portions of what was written.

Please note that NOT quoting what you are responding to makes it
significantly easier to imagine completely irrelevant things.


The point being made was about the potentially significant difference
between average transfers and maximum (potentially optimum, for a given
deck) transfers. Saying "But this will work when I get maximum
transfers" is unhelpful and, typically, wrong.

Note also that Deflections typically don't hold much threat for a weenie
hoard, especially when there are only 8 of them. It's a 0 stealth bleed
for 2 (if using Computer Hacking, say) - this qualifies quite neatly
under a lot of "responsible" bleed strategies. It also has enough spare
actions to draw out minimal defence.

Note also that if you had bothered to quote relevant portions of the
post to which you were responding, it would have been significantly
easier to see that weenie bleeds were only one of the problems being
noted. Deflections will not protect you against many other speedy
strategies.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
G

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In message <1120437442.882586.220040@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Preston, the ignorant, selfish fool, <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> mashed
on his keyboard with his fists and produced the following dirge of
nonsense:
>I am replying to your post without a single quotation. This scandalous
>and supercilious use of the news reader is truly unconscionable, By all
>means report me to the internet police at once.

*sigh*

The point, for most people, of posting to Usenet is to have some sort of
dialogue with other people.

In order to do that, most people put in the minimal effort to make their
posts easier to read and the thread of dialogue easier to follow. This
means that their posts will be read and understood by more people.


You have decided that following established Usenet convention is beneath
you. This makes your posts harder to read. This is because you are a
selfish, ignorant idiot. The point is that *you* put in the entirely
minimal effort of using the quotation function of your newsreader (which
is easily available, even on Google), so that everyone else can follow
exactly what you are saying and why.

Instead, you post randomly beneath different posts, with no indication
of what you are responding to. As you will note, this means that your
posts are hard to follow and that you repeatedly miss the point by not
actually responding to what is written but what you THINK is written.

This is because you are selfish, self-serving and ignorant.


This is nothing to do with the Internet police, and all to do with you
being a cretinous idiot who refuses to actually follow the conventions
of the medium he is in. You want people to help you with your Barbed
Wire project and then, when they do, refuse to actually do anything
helpful to deal with it. Stamp stamp stamp, quoting relevant portions
of posts is too hard for you so you won't bother. Stamp stamp stamp.

These are FREE CLUES you are being given. You are ignoring them.
Because you are both selfish and a fool. It is nothing to do with it
being a scandal.

You want people to respond to your posts? Post in a helpful fashion.

You actually want people to provide you with useful insights?
Apparently not, otherwise you'd post in a helpful fashion after this has
been pointed out to you repeatedly.


Consider *why* everyone else does the same thing (to make the thread of
conversation significantly easier for everyone to follow in long and
complex threads - which any thread can become without warning), and why
you do not do so (because you are lazy and selfish).


Note also that, because of the vagueness of post propagation on Usenet,
it is quite, quite possible for people to receive some of the replies to
a post but not the original post - or to have it delayed by some
minutes, hours, days. This is significantly less common than in days of
yore, but it still happens. This is not a web-forum with a centralized
database.

Further, for people using Google (such as yourself), the X-No-Archive
function means that all people will see in response to X-No-Archive-d
posts when they look back is a series of responses, with ABSOLUTELY ZERO
content from the non-archived posts. This completely destroys the
ability to follow a thread.


But yeah. You just continue making noise because you don't need to
behave in a helpful fashion for the rest of us.

Why should the rest of us have to pick out the badly quoted sections in
your posts, because you can't be bothered to hit the quote function of
your newsreader? There is absolutely no way that when you quote badly
that it looks like anything other than stream of consciousness arguing,
because you do not credit the other person in any way, shape or form -
remember, your newsreader can do that for you in a second, if you bother
to put in two minutes learning how to drive it.

But yeah, you know about Magic Pro Tours so I guess that the idea of
actually being helpful when discussing V:TES is beneath you.


Why not actually grow up and participate in a helpful fashion, rather
than foot-stamping about the Internet police? Or is that too much like
being both helpful, useful and sensible for you to cope with?

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
 
G

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James Coupe wrote:
> In message <1120437442.882586.220040@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Preston, the ignorant, selfish fool, <prestonpoulter@hotmail.com> mashed
> on his keyboard with his fists and produced the following dirge of
> nonsense:
> >I am replying to your post without a single quotation. This scandalous
> >and supercilious use of the news reader is truly unconscionable, By all
> >means report me to the internet police at once.
>
> *sigh*
>
> The point, for most people, of posting to Usenet is to have some sort of
> dialogue with other people.
>
> In order to do that, most people put in the minimal effort to make their
> posts easier to read and the thread of dialogue easier to follow. This
> means that their posts will be read and understood by more people.
>
Hmmm. Let me see if I get this. You are saying that I should include
relevant text so people will understand what I'm saying. So... you mean
you probably shouldn't have started criticizing my BWP: Malkavian deck
in the middle of a thread on Tremere Trophy decks without any relevant
text. And, let me think, oh yea, by me moving your criticisms to the
actual thread they belonged in I was actually making your
self-indulgent diatribes a bit more relevant. Oh, well good for me.

>
> You have decided that following established Usenet convention is beneath
> you. This makes your posts harder to read. This is because you are a
> selfish, ignorant idiot. The point is that *you* put in the entirely
> minimal effort of using the quotation function of your newsreader (which
> is easily available, even on Google), so that everyone else can follow
> exactly what you are saying and why.
>
> Instead, you post randomly beneath different posts, with no indication
> of what you are responding to. As you will note, this means that your
> posts are hard to follow and that you repeatedly miss the point by not
> actually responding to what is written but what you THINK is written.
>
> This is because you are selfish, self-serving and ignorant.

If you do say so yourself. Actually, you are the only person who has
complain to this date that my posts are hard to understand. You do so
in a rather bizarre fashion. In one thread that contained all of 4
posts total you jumped in and criticized me for not citing relevant
text when it was pretty clear I was referring to the poster right above
mine whom I addressed by name.
>
>
> This is nothing to do with the Internet police, and all to do with you
> being a cretinous idiot who refuses to actually follow the conventions
> of the medium he is in. You want people to help you with your Barbed
> Wire project and then, when they do, refuse to actually do anything
> helpful to deal with it. Stamp stamp stamp, quoting relevant portions
> of posts is too hard for you so you won't bother. Stamp stamp stamp.
>
> These are FREE CLUES you are being given. You are ignoring them.
> Because you are both selfish and a fool. It is nothing to do with it
> being a scandal.
>

That's right James. It has nothing to do with being a scandal. It does
have to do with you disingenuously hiding under the banner of useful
internet etiquette to engage in a rather unwarranted personal attack on
me for whatever reason.

> You want people to respond to your posts? Post in a helpful fashion.
>
> You actually want people to provide you with useful insights?
> Apparently not, otherwise you'd post in a helpful fashion after this has
> been pointed out to you repeatedly.
>

Pointed out by you in the form of personal attack. No one else has yet
to complain and many people have responded to the salient points of my
posts. THis suggests that they were able to follow them just fine.

>
> Consider *why* everyone else does the same thing (to make the thread of
> conversation significantly easier for everyone to follow in long and
> complex threads - which any thread can become without warning), and why
> you do not do so (because you are lazy and selfish).
>
>
> Note also that, because of the vagueness of post propagation on Usenet,
> it is quite, quite possible for people to receive some of the replies to
> a post but not the original post - or to have it delayed by some
> minutes, hours, days. This is significantly less common than in days of
> yore, but it still happens. This is not a web-forum with a centralized
> database.
>
> Further, for people using Google (such as yourself), the X-No-Archive
> function means that all people will see in response to X-No-Archive-d
> posts when they look back is a series of responses, with ABSOLUTELY ZERO
> content from the non-archived posts. This completely destroys the
> ability to follow a thread.
>
>
> But yeah. You just continue making noise because you don't need to
> behave in a helpful fashion for the rest of us.
>

You know James, I'm not sure how you conduct your personal life, but,
if not one has yet told you, trying to lord your knowledge of a topic
over someone by way of personal attacks and mischaracterizations are
really not the best way to win friends and influence people.

> Why should the rest of us have to pick out the badly quoted sections in
> your posts, because you can't be bothered to hit the quote function of
> your newsreader? There is absolutely no way that when you quote badly
> that it looks like anything other than stream of consciousness arguing,
> because you do not credit the other person in any way, shape or form -
> remember, your newsreader can do that for you in a second, if you bother
> to put in two minutes learning how to drive it.
>
> But yeah, you know about Magic Pro Tours so I guess that the idea of
> actually being helpful when discussing V:TES is beneath you.
>
>

You're just taking that and running with it. I'm not ashamed of what I
accomplished by any means, but I also never brought it up here in this
forum. It was brought up in the text of an email exchange between
myself and Derek in order to respond to his question of my relevant CCG
experience. This has been twisted by you in a post you made as,

"Stamp Stamp Stamp. I'm a Mtg Pro Tour Player, therefore I know
everything about VTES."

That you made this gross mischaracterization in the middle of a
personal attack on me under the pretext of clarity was ironic, if
nothing else.

> Why not actually grow up and participate in a helpful fashion, rather
> than foot-stamping about the Internet police? Or is that too much like
> being both helpful, useful and sensible for you to cope with?
>

Hmm participate instead of foot stamping. You mean, like posting a
newsletter. Or perhaps a series of decks designed for new players? Or
perhaps posting my feedback on various deck designs where I feel I have
something to contribute? Or perhaps conducting VTES demos once a week
for a couple of hours and posting my suggestions in case anyone else
wants to follow suit? Of yeah, I do all those things. So your
mischaracterizations and attacks on me as a do nothing whiner are
misplaced.
 
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Preston wrote:
> Actually, you are the only person who has
> complain to this date that my posts are hard to understand.

Many people in this community prefer responses with quotes, including
me. Seeing the context of a message makes it much easier to follow a
thread. So I'll add my request: Please continue to quote selectively
from posts you reply to.

And hey, let's just let this flame war die out. Just figure everybody
caught everybody on a bad day and start fresh.