Microsoft Responds to Windows 8 Hate From Game Devs

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]ejb222[/nom]Yeah, I can totally see it now. I load Ubuntu onto my Mother's PC. Then when she needs any sort of support, she's going to have to research like she's in college to manage her computer and all the software she wants to put on it(and research how to run the software on it to begin with). I really don't think 90% of PC users want to deal with that. It may be fun for the enthusiast...but most peoples arent enthusiasts.[/citation]

What would you need support for? Even if there's a problem, your mother can simply go to the Ubuntu forums if there's a problem with Ubuntu and they'll help out. Besides, if you know anything about computers, then why can't you help or at least know where to get help?

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]daglesj[/nom]I'm loving all these folks telling people to "come on over to linux! You'll love it!"Yeah you'll love it till the moment you have to ask for some advice or support and then its.."F*** off noob!" or "F*** off and don't ask until you've used it a year and learnt some stuff!"Thanks I'll reinstall Windows then!Great OS, crappy users!If linux is to get a real foothold a major corporation has to get behind it, basically buy it up and get rid of 99% of the other distros. Then a properly managed support network can be setup and standards achieved. Yep it totally goes against the ethos of Linux but currently the old phrase 'divide and conquer' is working a charm against linux.[/citation]

You do realize that Linux can't really be "bought up", right? Beyond that, how is Linux being conquered? Its market share is huge in some markets and although small in others, it is growing in pretty much everything (albeit very slowly). Beyond that, Linux was never intended to be the end-all be-all, it is simply another choice. Linux isn't perfect, but it's not like Windows doesn't have plenty of problems that Linux doesn't have. For example, Linux distros are general much lighter than Windows and don't need nearly as much optimization and cleaning to be kept in tip-top shape.

Beyond that, I can name numerous forums and sites that will help. I don't frequent any sites that would say such things as what you put in quotes. For example, the Ubuntu forums house a great community for helping people, even people who don't use native Ubuntu. What I think might be one of the best distros (although not for starters, it's got one of the highest learning curves) is TinyCore and the forums for it are also great. Heck, there's even an Ubuntu forum here on Tom's, although I don't use it much and don't know how helpful it is.

Whether or not you prefer Windows over Linux is your own choice, but I don't know where you could have looked for help to get a response such as what you quoted.

 

[daglesj]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]You do realize that Linux can't really be "bought up", right? Beyond that, how is Linux being conquered? Its market share is huge in some markets and although small in others, it is growing in pretty much everything (albeit very slowly). [/citation]

Yep and thats why it will never be much more then a curiosity on the desktop. Corps want ubiquitous support and look, the major corps that produce enterprise level productivity software want to make sure it runs pretty much the same across the platform. It's all about control and standardisation.

Never happen with the mega number of hippy dippy distros out there. Needs to come down to around 3-4 standardised distros with proper corporate backing.

Still maybe 2013 will be the year of Linux, like this year, last year, the year before.........

If you want linux to succeed it has to totally change.....in a way you and the rest of the linux fans won't like.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]daglesj[/nom]Yep and thats why it will never be much more then a curiosity on the desktop. Corps want ubiquitous support and look, the major corps that produce enterprise level productivity software want to make sure it runs pretty much the same across the platform. It's all about control and standardisation.Never happen with the mega number of hippy dippy distros out there. Needs to come down to around 3-4 standardised distros with proper corporate backing. Still maybe 2013 will be the year of Linux, like this year, last year, the year before.........If you want linux to succeed it has to totally change.....in a way you and the rest of the linux fans won't like.[/citation]

That's where you're wrong. The point of Linux is not to be the most popular, the point is free choice and in that sense, Linux is extremely successful, although it could always use more work. Linux isn't some company's key to riches, it is any man's key to choice. If I want to build a computer, I need an OS. If I want to pay over a hundred dollars for it to get a new OS, then I can do that, or I can simply download Linux and do almost everything that the other OS did. Many companies use professional versions of Linux that are proprietary in nature, but the OS is still open-source.

If Linux deviates from what it is intended for, then it is not succeeding in the goals set out by its creators and developers, it is failing and utterly so. You don't seem to understand that Linux's success and Windows' success are two entirely different things. Windows is a product that MS sells to make money. Linux is a freely available and protected competitor that is not intended to make money, it is intended to give people an OS that suits their needs.

If it doesn't suit yours, then fine, that's you. However, it has not failed because it does suit the needs of those whom develop it and many others. It gave you a choice and that was its goal. That you chose to not use it is not a bad thing for Linux like choosing to not use Windows is a bad thing for MS. It gave you the opportunity to choose, so it has already succeeded.

Whether or not Linux could use improvement as an OS is not in question nor has it ever been. Linux, like anything else, is far from perfect. It can'd do everything and it doesn't work with everything. However, it is being actively developed, for better or for worse, with the goals of improving the options that you have to choose from.

If you disagree with Linux's purpose, then fine, that's your opinion. However, that is an opinion that is not shared by the people who develop Linux and if they don't want to make Linux into what you think that it should be, well, that's their choice to make, not yours. Why should they make Linux into what you think it should be when you don't even agree with the ideals that it was founded on and continued on? If you think tht it should be something else, then you can choose to make a distro into something else. Again, it's all about choice. However, they should not have to make their projects into what you think that they should because these are their projects, not yours.

To you, it is a curiosity, but to them, it is their work and their choice in an OS and in what software they use. What right do you have to dictate what they should choose?

 

[eddieroolz]

I see it as a mixed bag...some optimizations and new features like the Xbox Windows are somewhat enticing, but then the over-focus on Metro and removal of several key Windows features upsets me.

 

[Timendo]

I honestly think that if Linux got massive support from game developers, such as Valve seems to be moving into, a lot of people would switch from Windows to Linux, I think I would, It boots faster, uses less resources, and in my opinion, more aesthetically pleasing.

The only things I like about Windows is the fact that I've learned it for so long I know where I can find everything, and the compatibility.

 

[svdb]

Win7 works like a charm for me, no reason to upgrade. Let's skip a version and see what Windows 9 will be like...

 

[back_by_demand]

[citation][nom]wavetrex[/nom]The entire concept of a touch-screen oriented OS being pushed on the desktop is deeply flawed.[/citation]
Here's the thing, I still have XP on one machine because what it does has no need for another OS, hell I even have an old Cyrix 266 machine running Windows 95 because anything more advanced will make it fall over - I use it exclusively for DOS games that still don't work via DOSbox
...
So if you think Windows 8 is "fail" for desktops then don't buy it, keep using Windows 7, the fact that XP is still supported over 10 years after it was launched means you have plenty of wiggle room
...
I would suggest however that if you do invest in a tablet and want the best backwards compatability then Windows 8 is probably going to be better than Android or iOS tablets
...
Maybe by the time Windows "Cloud" 9 arrives they will have made people a bit happier, even if they don't bring back the Start menu they might give us something better to replace it

 

[back_by_demand]

[citation][nom]daglesj[/nom]I'm loving all these folks telling people to "come on over to linux! You'll love it!"Yeah you'll love it till the moment you have to ask for some advice or support and then its.."F*** off noob!" or "F*** off and don't ask until you've used it a year and learnt some stuff!"Thanks I'll reinstall Windows then!Great OS, crappy users!If linux is to get a real foothold a major corporation has to get behind it, basically buy it up and get rid of 99% of the other distros. Then a properly managed support network can be setup and standards achieved. Yep it totally goes against the ethos of Linux but currently the old phrase 'divide and conquer' is working a charm against linux.[/citation]
Linux is a bit like the land redistribution scheme in Zimbabwe, a laudible idea in principle, but they took small numbers of large swathes of farmlands and fragmented the farm areas to lots of individual owners - terrible, the same freedoms that gave the people "land" turned the whole country from a mass food producing nation that sold and fed surplus to surrounding nations into a country that could no longer feed itself
...
That Zimbabwean land owner who is starving to death would rather die hungry owning a dustbowl 20 acres, than have a full belly and a job on someone elses 10,000 acres - Linux needs to wise up coz 0.86% of desktop users is pitiful for such a capable OS

 

[jaygee02]

[citation][nom]velocityg4[/nom]I don't believe that. None of my 16 bit DOS games from the 80's and early 90's work in Win 7 x64. I know there are workarounds. Many more recent Direct X 8 and 9 games don't work either without some sort of patch or hack.[/citation]
Oh really, your 30 year old 16-bit games don't run in a 64-bit modern OS? Clearly that's a failure on Microsoft's part. While they're fixing that, maybe they can put 5inch floppy drives and cartridge support back in, what's with getting rid of that?

 

[YellowBee]

I don’t know why people complain so much. Give someone a chance before you judge!
It’s like watching the cover for a movie then say "this will suck", but you have no clue what’s inside.

"- Casual gamers have in the most part moved to consoles, soon they will have the option of a very cheap and open-source console ( the OUYA ), or playing on tablets/smartphones." - wavetrex 08/11/2012 2:17 PM
That is not true, gamers love windows(95/7). So do the community and the gamers in it. Can anyone honestly image a RTS on a console? Starcraft 2 for example…. Or Diablo * or even World Of Warcraft (even they not a RTS). No you can’t! As it won’t work!

OUYA is an open console, have you guys already forgot what happened to the PS3 once it was hacked? The PSN was flooded with cheaters and it basically ruined the game experience for everyone. Even its just on 1% of the people community using it.
I LOVE the OUYA(yes I did buy one already) but when something is open, it will be “broken” and the cheaters with flood. Everyone knows this. But XBMC and PLEX on it, hopefully I can kick out my Boxee Box once and for all
Valve/Blizzard/so on... can say whatever they want as they are indeed competitors in one way or the other. But they NEED MS, it’s the same the other way around. I don't find it weird or difficult to understand that the competition the latest years have changed. They start bashing each other for no reason what so ever. Because they want to be on top them self. It’s all about money. Now that MS has lowered their price on Win 8, I think that a lot of people using a warez version of windows 7 can actually buy their os for once. I have used the Preview for a while and I like it. Everything you need is on your start up screen, if u need the destkop, hit the "windows key" and wolla. Its real fast to use and real easy.
If you don’t like it, don’t use it. Simple as that. Windows 7 will stay around for a LONG time anyway.
People have been using Windows 7 ages and do you remember the fuzz that was around about it? "ITS THE WORST SH-T EVER", In my opinion it’s the best OS ever(until I try Windows 8 for real). After years on the market you can do basically whatever you want with it. All thanks to developers around the globe. Just like you will be able to do with Windows 8, in time...
Most people is afraid of change, we stick to our routines day in and out. Now with Win 8 on the horizon it’s time for a new one. I can’t wait to get my hands on Win 8 and see what I can do with it.
If it sucks, well to bad… I will just go back to Windows 7 again. But at least I gave it a chance, THEN I can say my opinion. But only then….

PS. Last one closing the door buys the beer.

 

[daglesj]

[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]That's where you're wrong. The point of Linux is not to be the most popular, the point is free choice and in that sense, Linux is extremely successful, although it could always use more work.[/citation]

In that case Linux users please stop whining about MS having 90%+ of the market. If you wont stop up to the corporate standardised approach then be content to stay a minority curio with little in the way of mainstream support.

If you want more then it has to change. Sorry but altruistic 'free thinking developers' are not in the driving seat.

Put up or shut up really.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]daglesj[/nom]In that case Linux users please stop whining about MS having 90%+ of the market. If you wont stop up to the corporate standardised approach then be content to stay a minority curio with little in the way of mainstream support.If you want more then it has to change. Sorry but altruistic 'free thinking developers' are not in the driving seat.Put up or shut up really.[/citation]

Well, there's always the obnoxiously loud whiners about everything. There are people whom whine about Windows, Linux OSX, iOS, Android, and pretty much any toher operating system. They may be the loudest, but they are not the majority.

 

[cwolf78]

[citation][nom]belardo[/nom]Make the games for Linux... and the people will come.[/citation]

No, I won't.

 

[everygamer]

This is completely hype, Stardock, Valve and all the other PC game distributors are basically throwing negative press because they fear that the Windows 8 Store which will be integrated into the OS will more directly market PC games to people than their platforms. Period. Microsoft is not excluding Valve, Stardock and other platforms from Windows 8, I have in fact installed and used both of these services on Windows 8 Customer Preview, downloaded games and played them. It has zero to do with access or closed environments, it has 100% to do with advertisement and direct sales.

So long as Microsoft allows those platforms to install on Windows 8, they have nothing to complain about. If it comes down to game compatibility with Windows 8, that has to do with the game developer not the distribution platform, and the developer releasing patches to correct for bugs with the new platform. Skyrim seemed to work fine for me, and I would expect most Direct X based games to not have an issue.

Lastly, this article stated that some game developers were complaining, but the companies mentioned Valve, Stardock, etc are not game developers, they are game distributors. Valve might release Half-life / Portal type stuff, but they make 99% of their money from game distribution .. not game development.

 

[everygamer]

[citation][nom]belardo[/nom]Make the games for Linux... and the people will come.[/citation]

The reason games are not written for linux is a simple economics problem. 94% of desktops are windows. 5% of desktops are Mac OSX. The other 1% is everything else.

So when a game developer wants to create a 50 million dollar game, and get that return on investment, developing it for the 1% or less is a waste of time and money. If you look at the games that are released for the Mac OSX platform they tend to be the most popular/successful games or indie games targeted to a specific audience. You will also notice that the majority of those games don't use Direct X in their Windows release of the game, they were built on OpenGL. OpenGL is cross platform with Windows/Mac OSX/Linux but it still requires porting the code to the different hardware/OS requirements and development languages.

At the end of the day, game developed for Linux are not likely going to happen often until there is either an easier path to port from Windows/Mac OSX to linux OR the linux desktop market grows beyond 5% or more.

$$$ drive business decisions

(Valve's recent port of Left4Dead is an exception, that is Valve trying to make a statement against the Windows dominated platform, just like they are complaining about the Windows 8 Store)

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]everygamer[/nom]The reason games are not written for linux is a simple economics problem. 94% of desktops are windows. 5% of desktops are Mac OSX. The other 1% is everything else.So when a game developer wants to create a 50 million dollar game, and get that return on investment, developing it for the 1% or less is a waste of time and money. If you look at the games that are released for the Mac OSX platform they tend to be the most popular/successful games or indie games targeted to a specific audience. You will also notice that the majority of those games don't use Direct X in their Windows release of the game, they were built on OpenGL. OpenGL is cross platform with Windows/Mac OSX/Linux but it still requires porting the code to the different hardware/OS requirements and development languages.At the end of the day, game developed for Linux are not likely going to happen often until there is either an easier path to port from Windows/Mac OSX to linux OR the linux desktop market grows beyond 5% or more.$$$ drive business decisions(Valve's recent port of Left4Dead is an exception, that is Valve trying to make a statement against the Windows dominated platform, just like they are complaining about the Windows 8 Store)[/citation]

I don't think that the problem with porting is that OpenGL needs the code to be ported. The problem is probably composed of the rest of the game such as the audio and more that probably doesn't have any cross-platform components.

 

[daglesj]

Then there is the other question.

Would linux users actually pay for software?

Had a free ride so far.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]daglesj[/nom]Then there is the other question.Would linux users actually pay for software?Had a free ride so far.[/citation]

That would depend on the software. People are definitely going to pay for some games because at least some Windows gamers would switch over if they could game on Linux. If proprietary software can stay ahead of open source software in quality without having too high of a price, then some people would probably buy licenses for said software. If Linux was a viable platform for all users, then you can bet that more than just a few people would switch over and many Windows users are much more willing to pay for software than many Linux users.

 

[SlitelyOff]

[citation][nom]elcentral[/nom]windows games god i hate the drm so fucking much i cant simply play a windows game from scratch, no i need to de-bugg the hole fucking game cuss its always "always" unwilling to play. for me to start dirt 3 takes 30 min of fiddling for the damn drm to let me use save files. all to often i simply play a unsavable game so i dont need to mess with the pile of crap windows created. and all the games windows force drm on is the same. let my fucking steam games be managed by steam already. sorry but i really needed to went out some anger from this mess.[/citation]

I can only pray that English is your second, or even third, language.

 

[Guest]

Ubuntu blows. It has since 10.04. Get Linux Mint.

 

[govadina]

Gabe Newell's praises and criticism are worthless. The PS3 was also called a disaster by him. And guess what surprise was deployed at E3. Steam isn't selling Angry birds or Temple run anyway. Not to mention all this Origin etc. business is finally forcing them to improve their social network kind of experience.
All this "fight the power" is getting REALLY annoying. How is releasing a new OS version bad? Would you rather buy a laptop with a new OS or the same old one with no real improvements? (Or buy the old one at a discount) The amount of consumers actually upgrading their OS without changing the machine is extremely small. Windows will not be a super locked down OS, the majority of people who want this "simplicity" is already on Mac, or more precisely iOS.
You'll still be able to use the search function of the start menu, if you're not using it but instead are actually going into the menus you're doing it wrong,
And if for whatever reason this system doesn't suit you move to Linux and you'll never look back.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]govadina[/nom]Gabe Newell's praises and criticism are worthless. The PS3 was also called a disaster by him. And guess what surprise was deployed at E3. Steam isn't selling Angry birds or Temple run anyway. Not to mention all this Origin etc. business is finally forcing them to improve their social network kind of experience.All this "fight the power" is getting REALLY annoying. How is releasing a new OS version bad? Would you rather buy a laptop with a new OS or the same old one with no real improvements? (Or buy the old one at a discount) The amount of consumers actually upgrading their OS without changing the machine is extremely small. Windows will not be a super locked down OS, the majority of people who want this "simplicity" is already on Mac, or more precisely iOS.You'll still be able to use the search function of the start menu, if you're not using it but instead are actually going into the menus you're doing it wrong,And if for whatever reason this system doesn't suit you move to Linux and you'll never look back.[/citation]

Why move to Linux when one can simply install a start menu in Windows 8 if Metro, desktop, and the task bar alone just don't do things for them how they want it to work? That seems like jumping ship when all you have to do to fix your issue with it is tie up a new sail.

 

[matt911]

Microsoft is doing what it has always done. It is trying to use its desktop O/S monopoly to try to push itself into a vertical monopoly in downstream and related markets. By controlling the operating system and development tools and constantly changing it, Microsoft forces everyone that makes software for PCs to become their partner to keep up. Eventually the partners realize how futile it is to try to hold on to Microsoft's tether and they let Microsoft buy them out. If competitors won't partner with them then they integrate competing software into the operating system to ensure that there will not be any chance to fairly compete because of the "incumbent" advantage.

The only way to escape the oppressive influence of Microsoft is at the operating system level itself, but doing that is nearly impossible due to customers wanting to continue to run the software they already bought. Competing at any higher level destines you to become their lapdog eventually.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]matt911[/nom]Microsoft is doing what it has always done. It is trying to use its desktop O/S monopoly to try to push itself into a vertical monopoly in downstream and related markets. By controlling the operating system and development tools and constantly changing it, Microsoft forces everyone that makes software for PCs to become their partner to keep up. Eventually the partners realize how futile it is to try to hold on to Microsoft's tether and they let Microsoft buy them out. If competitors won't partner with them then they integrate competing software into the operating system to ensure that there will not be any chance to fairly compete because of the "incumbent" advantage.The only way to escape the oppressive influence of Microsoft is at the operating system level itself, but doing that is nearly impossible due to customers wanting to continue to run the software they already bought. Competing at any higher level destines you to become their lapdog eventually.[/citation]

You dislike MS progressing their dev tools? If people can't keep up with releases that are several years apart, then they might be fail at what they do. Firefox and Chrome (as well as other browsers) are still around despite there being a free MS alternative. They're even flourishing. I'm not saying that MS has never done anything that was morally and maybe even legally questionable, but you're asking it out to be a much worse problem than it is and considering that it is bad enough, that's quite the feat. There is simply a lot of evidence that contradicts your claims. We can also look at other things such as several free Office alternatives and more that are still around and have been for years. Heck, Opera is from the 90s and they're doing fine in competing against IE, although their market share isn't as great as some other browsers.