[SOLVED] Success or failure of a BIOS update seems to depend on the USB drive ?

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

Hello everyone. I am using the MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC.
I have read MANY forum replies of different users expressing their concerns over failed BIOS updates even though they followed the motherboard vendors' suggested process to the book.

Many have even said that when they retried the BIOS update using different USB sticks, the results were different. While one 'perfectly functioning' USB drive didn't allow the BIOS update to be successful, another 'perfectly functioning' USB drive got the job done.

Now, my question is, why is it, that one USB drive which performs completely alright doesn't allow the BIOS update to be installed properly while another USB drive does?
The usual complaint is, that the compatible CPU LED is on after an update.

 

[Colif]

True, Don't update a BIOS simply because an update exists.
I would only do it if you have a problem you cannot fix any other way.
I did one a few weeks ago as I have/had a latency spike that only happens once a week and after updating all other drivers and repair installing windows, bios update was one of my last choices.
I am still not sure if its fixed or not.

 

[Colif]

It could be drivers. i suspect there are low level drivers the BIOS uses to access USB sticks and some drives use chips the BIOS cannot read from. Its likely it only has standard ones, and there are probably lots of different chips to use.

That is reason why some WIndows installs fail at the partition creation stage.

drive size is also a factor, if its over 32gb it uses Exfat and I don't think BIOS can flash from that format.
Most bios manuals would say what to format drive as

 

[Karadjgne]

Most ppl don't follow the rules exactly, if they read them at all. The drive should not be larger than 16Gb, should be Fat32 formatted, should be free of any other files or folders, Disable Antivirus! etc.

Asus, for instance, also goes one step extra by giving you a rename tool to use, to rename the included bios file, simply because many Antivirus will pick up on bios files as a possible attack, and can and will quarantine any part of the update it feels is malicious. The rename allows for a full download, unmolested by Antivirus. You just need to change it back to a bios acceptable format.

Ppl skip that part all the time and the update fails.

Or they get stupid, and impatient and believe there's something wrong when the pc takes 4 minutes to respond and starts multiple boots, so they pull the plug mid ram training and brick the update.

99% of failed bios updates are user error, now. Not so in the past, Asus had some automated issues, those were bypassed by manual installation.

 

[drea.drechsler]

can you please tell me what partitioning technique you have done on your usb drive always?
Like, ntfs or fat32 formatting?

Any USB stick drive I use for BIOS updating gets formatted FAT32 in one single partition.

One other thing is that should the update fail because the update can't read the BIOS file from a bad or unreadable USB drive it doesn't 'brick' your board. The update is a staged process, each stage concluding successfully before proceeding to the next. One of the first stages is to read in the BIOS from the USB stick drive and run error checks to ensure it's both a BIOS intended for that board and not corrupted (CRC checks at least). If it fails, whether because it can't read the USB drive or data is corrupted, it stops there leaving the current BIOS untouched and fully operable.

I'm sure something similar happens with BIOS Flashback. But because of it's simplicity it will just stop what it's doing with no obvious indications something's wrong beyond possibly flashing it's LED differently.

 

[geofelt]

Karadgjne ^^ has good advice.


Failure during the flash can be difficult to recover from.
Updating via internet may seem simple, but interned failure during the process is not good.

One other thing.
Do not update a bios unless it is to fix a problem that is impacting you.
I may only do this on a new motherboard where the impact of failure is minimal.

 

[CountMike]

Any USB stick drive I use for BIOS updating gets formatted FAT32 in one single partition.

One other thing is that should the update fail because the update can't read the BIOS file from a bad or unreadable USB drive it doesn't 'brick' your board. The update is a staged process, each stage concluding successfully before proceeding to the next. One of the first stages is to read in the BIOS from the USB stick drive and run error checks to ensure it's both a BIOS intended for that board and not corrupted (CRC checks at least). If it fails, whether because it can't read the USB drive or data is corrupted, it stops there leaving the current BIOS untouched and fully operable.

I'm sure something similar happens with BIOS Flashback. But because of it's simplicity it will just stop what it's doing with no obvious indications something's wrong beyond possibly flashing it's LED differently.

It's true only with older MBs and Flashback features. My MB can find and use BIOS file even from internal HDD in GPT and NTFS format, also from internal or external CD/DVD.

 

[ODuffer]

I guess it goes without saying, but perhaps not.... After copying the BIOS to the USB drive, be sure to properly 'eject' the drive using the OS, rather than just pulling it out.

 

[Colif]

hello! How can I check if any of my ssd, hdd is on gpt or mbr?

if windows is working

1. open command prompt (admin)
2. type Diskpart and press enter
3. type List Disk and press enter
4. any GPT drives will have an asterix under GPT header

close cmd once finished.

if you can't get into windows

1. boot from installer
2. on screen after languages, choose repair this pc, not install.
3. choose troubleshoot
4. choose advanced
5. choose command prompt
6. enter same commands as above

its possible your board doesn't let you dl direct to bios
it shows this on bios page

just use USB, I feel its safer.

 

[Karadjgne]

MBR and GPT are similar, but different. MBR is very old, but works well, so is a staple format for drives 2TB or smaller. That's a hard limit, something the original coders had little idea would happen, as drives back then were 100GB or less. MBR keeps all info of all 4 partitions on the drive in one spot, right at the very beginning of the drive.

GPT came about much later as drives started approaching the 2TB MBR limits. Instead of keeping all records at the beginning of the drive, they keep all records at the beginning of each partition, so the only info at the beginning of the drive is a list of the partitions themselves. This allows for many more partitions, and a maximum of 9,400,000,000 TB drive (basically unlimited single drive size).

That only applies to Sata ssd and hdd. NVMe is setup differently because of its association and basis in RAID drivers and to get maximim read/write speeds from a Gen3 or Gen4 NVMe basically requires it be setup as GPT under UEFI, not MBR under legacy.

Changing a windows installed legacy-MBR to Uefi-GPT is a Royal P.I.T.A.

 

[Karadjgne]

Ahh, well then there's a difference there. MBR/GPT is how the drives are Organized, format Fat32/ntfs etc is how the files are Organized

Windows is ntfs. That's the filing system it uses. Prior to WinXP, windows was DOS based, not ntfs based. Floppy drives used Fat32 file system. Ntfs is New Technology File System, first used in Win NT server, and basically replaced File Allocation Table 32bit (FAT32) in standard windows based on 64bit (x64) processing.

Floppies, USB, other portable media still uses Fat32 because it's simple, small and universal. Just like most hdd and Sata ssd under 2TB still use MBR instead of using GPT.

It's like how a book is written. Most smaller books have an index page, lists all the Chapters. That's MBR. GPT is built for bigger books, so would just have an index page listing all the Parts. At each Part has its own index page listing all the contained Chapters.

Fat32 would be like those Chapters listed in Bullet Point, double spaced, NTFS would be numbered, single space instead. Fat32 bullet point, double spaced is very simple and easy to read, but can contain only so many Chapters listed on a page. NTFS being single spaced and numbered is a little more complex, but can contain far more Chapters listed per page.

About as simple as I can break it down lol.

 

[Colif]

Explanation of terms:

UEFI - Unified Extensible Firmware Interface
If your PC is less than 11 years old, you have a UEFI bios now

In 2006 or so Intel decided the bios as it was at time was too limited and needed to be replaced so that it supported newer technologies as they were invented
By about 2009 a consortium of hardware makers had combined to create UEFI standard

Old bios were limited, they didn't know what a mouse was for, so everything was keyboard driven
they weren't expandable, everything had to fit in a small amount of memory (16mb)
they only supported Master Boot Record (MBR)

1. which can only have 4 partitions per drive (there are tricks to get around this)
2. and max drive size is 2.2 tb

UEFI bios overcame all the limitations of legacy bios (as it came to be called)
it supports mouse, it has a GUI so it looks better than previous bios could
Its expandable, it can be added to to grow as new hardware is created.
UEFI supports MBR & GPT Drives

GPT = GUID Partition Table
GUID = Global Unique ID = Every GPT drive on earth has a unique ID

1. GPT drives can have a max of 255 partitions on them
2. Max size of a GPT drive/partition is 18.8 million TB

 

[Karadjgne]

Learning is always a good thing. But you'll need to apply limits for your own sanity when it comes to pc's. Each subject is a rabbit hole, leads to many other tunnels, each another rabbit hole. Nobody understands the entire Warren exactly, but many understand more specific and specialized rabbit holes. But as is, pc's are basically a bottomless pit of info.

Just delving into MBR/GPT will lead to file systems, differences in Sata and hdd drives, which lead to different kinds of nand, which leads to controllers, which leads to differences in internal and external drives, which leads to Sata and USB interconnects, which leads to Sata and pcie differences, which leads to types of pcie...............

The list is endless 😉

 

[Karadjgne]

Ooof. Lol.
MBR = The Hobbit.
GPT = Lord of The Rings in 1 book...

 

[drea.drechsler]

....
Now, my question is, why is it, that one USB drive which performs completely alright doesn't allow the BIOS update to be installed properly while another USB drive does?
...

I can't answer that with any certainty...but I do believe the problem is more prevalent when using the BIOS flashback feature.

I do have to think it's probably related to how simplistic the processor and routine is that reads data off the USB and then processes the update onto the E-PROM. Remember that BIOS flashback has to work even with no CPU in the system so any 'driver' is going to be as simple is it can possibly be. With a proper CPU to do the processing it only makes sense that a properly robust driver working on it could more effectively (or speedily at least) process error correction data if the USB stick drive is borderline.

I've personally updated BIOS on each of my boards multiple times and never had a problem one. That's using both BIOS flashback and the in-BIOS utility. I'm personally confident the number of successful updates vastly outweighs that of unsuccessful but we never hear of them. You can't overlook "problem bias" in what you see posted. That is: you really only see posts in forums by those who have a problem doing it and rarely, if ever, from those who've never had a problem.

 

[Colif]

True, the lack of people coming in and saying they have no problems, is noticeable. Apart from mods and regulars anyway.

I wouldn't suggest it so easily if it bricked motherboards all the time. Its not something I do on a whim but it can help.

 

[Colif]

At least the newer Gigabyte bios updates show a progress bar and only turn off when completed. I did one about a week ago on this PC, worked fine for me.

AV didn't mess with gigabyte files.

 

[dwd999]

Hello everyone. I am using the MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC.
I have read MANY forum replies of different users expressing their concerns over failed BIOS updates even though they followed the motherboard vendors' suggested process to the book.

Many have even said that when they retried the BIOS update using different USB sticks, the results were different. While one 'perfectly functioning' USB drive didn't allow the BIOS update to be successful, another 'perfectly functioning' USB drive got the job done.

Now, my question is, why is it, that one USB drive which performs completely alright doesn't allow the BIOS update to be installed properly while another USB drive does?
The usual complaint is, that the compatible CPU LED is on after an update.

The easy solution is don't use a bios update method that relies on a usb. With your motherboard, you have the Live Update 6 app that performs the update without a usb. Other motherboards such as the ones from ASUS have a bios update function built right into the bios itself where you just point to any drive location including internal drives where the new bios file is stored.

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

The easy solution is don't use a bios update method that relies on a usb. With your motherboard, you have the Live Update 6 app that performs the update without a usb. Other motherboards such as the ones from ASUS have a bios update function built right into the bios itself where you just point to any drive location including internal drives where the new bios file is stored.

Hi, thanks for the reply.
I have read online in many places also and they discourage to use the live update feature of a motherboard so I didn't even mention at in the post as an alternative.

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

I can't answer that with any certainty...but I do believe the problem is more prevalent when using the BIOS flashback feature.

I do have to think it's probably related to how simplistic the processor and routine is that reads data off the USB and then processes the update onto the E-PROM. Remember that BIOS flashback has to work even with no CPU in the system so any 'driver' is going to be as simple is it can possibly be. With a proper CPU to do the processing it only makes sense that a properly robust driver working on it could more effectively (or speedily at least) process error correction data if the USB stick drive is borderline.

I've personally updated BIOS on each of my boards multiple times and never had a problem one. That's using both BIOS flashback and the in-BIOS utility. I'm personally confident the number of successful updates vastly outweighs that of unsuccessful but we never hear of them. You can't overlook "problem bias" in what you see posted. That is: you really only see posts in forums by those who have a problem doing it and rarely, if ever, from those who've never had a problem.

can you please tell me what partitioning technique you have done on your usb drive always?
Like, ntfs or fat32 formatting?

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

Any USB stick drive I use for BIOS updating gets formatted FAT32 in one single partition.

thank you for replying to me, sir.

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

Karadgjne ^^ has good advice.


Failure during the flash can be difficult to recover from.
Updating via internet may seem simple, but interned failure during the process is not good.

One other thing.
Do not update a bios unless it is to fix a problem that is impacting you.
I may only do this on a new motherboard where the impact of failure is minimal.

understood

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

True, Don't update a BIOS simply because an update exists.
I would only do it if you have a problem you cannot fix any other way.
I did one a few weeks ago as I have/had a latency spike that only happens once a week and after updating all other drivers and repair installing windows, bios update was one of my last choices.
I am still not sure if its fixed or not.

I hope you got your latency problem fixed.
But for the rest of the advice, gotcha.

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

It's true only with older MBs and Flashback features. My MB can find and use BIOS file even from internal HDD in GPT and NTFS format, also from internal or external CD/DVD.

hello! How can I check if any of my ssd, hdd is on gpt or mbr?
My mobo is B450 Gaming PRO Carbon AC.
How can I select HDD or SSD as drives from which to take the BIOS file from during M-FLASH from inside BIOS during bios update?

 

[Sheikh Tashdeed Ahmed]

I guess it goes without saying, but perhaps not.... After copying the BIOS to the USB drive, be sure to properly 'eject' the drive using the OS, rather than just pulling it out.

always a good practice to have regardless, right.