thermal glue for the Athlon 64 x2 3800

velocci

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hi there, i got my Athlon 64 x2 3800. but i haven't opened it yet cause i didn't get the rest of my hardware shipped yet. I was told it will come with the glue necessary to attach the heatsink to the cpu? is that a good kind of glue or should i use a better glue? I will probably overclock my cpu.
 

PCKid777

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First, it isn't "glue". It is usually a thermal pad that is pre-applied to retail CPU packages. All you need to do is properly install the CPU and put on the Heatsink/Fan correctly. Secondly, if you are NOT overclocking, don't worry about it. If you live in a very hot climate, then you may want to consider getting some Arctic Silver 5.
 

pcrig

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First, it isn't "glue". It is usually thermal tape that is pre-applied to retail CPU packages. All you need to do is properly install the CPU and put on the Heatsink/Fan correctly. Secondly, if you are NOT overclocking, don't worry about it. If you live in a very hot climate, then you may want to consider getting some Arctic Silver 5.

Well it is Thermal GREASE i.e. Shin Etsu not tape.

Should you use anything else you voided your Warranty!

Silver Arctic is prohibited on AMD processors as it would definitively destroy the CPU warranty.

Do not recommend what manufacturer of CPU prohibits!

Arctic Silver 5
 

Sekeru

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i am not sure if that glue is good i would suppose so.but if you are going to serously OC then you might concider going with a opty since they run cooler and are easier to OC
 

velocci

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ok so if i use the greece/glue that comes in the box, can i later remove the heatsink and fan and replace? will it be easy to remove it?
 

lordroddington

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yeah use isopropyl alcohol, it will be pretty easy to remove. especially on processors with a heat spreader (ie, basically any processor on the market right now). it was a lot harder on older ones like my athlon xp
 

PCKid777

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Uhm...I reccomend what I use as well as what is the BEST performing thermal grease out there. I have been using Arctic Silver 5 for a couple years now on an OLD ATHLON XP-M!!!! I HAVE HAD NO ISSUES AT ALL!
 

PCKid777

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It also depends on your case. I hope you bought one with 120mm cooling fans. I have a Tsunami case and it stays nice and cool, exhausting hot air away from the CPU and MB.
 

velocci

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i just got the Antec P-180. it comes with 3 fans. one on top, one in the back and one blowing air on the PSU i guess.

It also depends on your case. I hope you bought one with 120mm cooling fans. I have a Tsunami case and it stays nice and cool, exhausting hot air away from the CPU and MB.
 

slvr_phoenix

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First, it isn't "glue". It is usually thermal tape that is pre-applied to retail CPU packages. All you need to do is properly install the CPU and put on the Heatsink/Fan correctly. Secondly, if you are NOT overclocking, don't worry about it. If you live in a very hot climate, then you may want to consider getting some Arctic Silver 5.

Well it is Thermal GREASE i.e. Shin Etsu not tape.:lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are funny. And I believe both wrong. To my knowledge what comes on the processor is just a direct application of a phase change material. (A phase change material is solid when cold, and melts into the liquid needed to fill the gaps when it warms up.) It's generally called a thermal pad.

Last I knew it was not post-production application of an adhesive tape. Further, thermal tape is actually a generic term simply meaning any conductive material in a strip form with an adhesive on one at least one side. By the way, most thermal tapes are pure solids, often just a strip of aluminum or copper. Phase change tape is relatively rare by comparison.

And it's most definately not a grease. Grease is not a phase change material. Grease is always in liquid form. Last I knew AMD had a strong disliking any use of grease.

Should you use anything else you voided your Warranty!
This didn't use to be the case. AMD required the retail HSF, but was still allowing you to use your own thermal interface material (TIM). I know that they were contemplating the requirement of a phase-change material and outlawing all grease, but to my knowledge, they never actually made that warranty change. But then I haven't read a retail warranty from AMD recently. So has this actually changed now? Does the warranty actually require a specific TIM now? Do you have a link to AMD's retail warranty to show this?
 
You guys are funny. And I believe both wrong. To my knowledge what comes on the processor is just a direct application of a phase change material. (A phase change material is solid when cold, and melts into the liquid needed to fill the gaps when it warms up.) It's generally called a thermal pad.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner, except thermal pads don't come on the processor, they come on retail heatsinks.

To the original poster:

I recommend that you:
A) Use the stock thermal pad that comes with the heatsink/proc
B) Do not overclock

If you want to deviate from the suggestions I have outlined I recommend you do a lot of research (don't ask on boards, this information is everywhere) on overclocking and custom cooling solutions.
 

Grimmy

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I agree that the glue is wrong..

The pad is attached to a retail heatsink..

However I agree that the thermal compound is a Silicone GREASE used for heatsinks, which I've used for years.

AS5 is exactly the same thing however. Its using a different technique to transfer heat, from metal particals and a type of bonding, that cures in 200 hours.

Thermal Compound - Encyclopedia
 

slvr_phoenix

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except thermal pads doesn't come on the processor, they come on retail heatsinks.
OMG! Not only are you right, but I knew that. :lol: I can't believe I screwed that up. Oh well. No one's perfect. :oops: Thanks for pointing it ou. :) I'd correct it, but it's just too funny, being so ironic and all. :wink:
 

mpjesse

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moparman390

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If you are not overclocking, don't worry about it. Just put the stock Fan+heatsink on your processor, the thermal "goo" (to use a non technical tearm) is already on there. The stock Fan+heatsink AMD provides on the X2 series is really nice (in my opinion the best stock Fan+heatsink ever) it will keep your processor cool and even allow to do some mild overclocking (200MHz). I'm not big into overclocking, my stock cooler on my 4400+ is just fine for me, should be fine for you if you are not overclocking. If you are overclocking that's when you have to worry about thermal "goo" (AS, paste, whatever...), consult the overclocking forum on cooling for that.
 

slvr_phoenix

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http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_11120_11125,00.html

There is AMD's warranty details. It doesn't anything about using Arctic Silver. It fact it doesn't mention anything at all about thermal grease or paste.
That's what I thought. :) Thanks for providing the proof. I'm too lazy to find it myself. Heh heh.

But yeah, I know AMD had this huge hard on for phase change material and was talking about banning grease, but I didn't think they'd ever have the balls to piss off enthusiasts that much.

I'm surprised that after all this time they're even still sticking to the whole retail warranty is void if you use a 3rd party heatsink thing. I've always hated that.

The 3rd party HSF retail warranty clause has always been one real benefit of Intel over AMD that has meant something to me. (Unless Intel has changed their retail warranty recently?)
 

slvr_phoenix

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Never use thermal tape on a cpu- unless you plan to never remove the heatsink.
And even then, use thermal epoxy instead. :wink:

Although I do believe that there are some (expensive) thermal tapes made of phase change material that have adhesive on one side only that are typically marketted at system builders that go with OEM procs and 3rd party HSFs who don't like to mess with grease. :)
 

slvr_phoenix

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But but but... wat about Velveeta cheese?? I read something about cheese somewhere... oh nm. :oops:
The funny thing is that Velveeta cheese might even make a fairly good TIM. It's a phase change material with a low melting point. The questions would be: 1) How thermally conductive is cheese? 2) What's Velveeta's burning point? :lol:
 

pcrig

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http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_11120_11125,00.html

There is AMD's warranty details. It doesn't anything about using Arctic Silver. It fact it doesn't mention anything at all about thermal grease or paste.


Three (3) Year Processor In A Box Limited Warranty


AMD warrants that processors sold through the AMD Processor in a Box Program, which have a "qualifying" serial number, when properly installed and used, will be free from defects in material and workmanship and will substantially conform to AMD's publicly available specifications for a period of three (3) years after the date the AMD processor was purchased.

If the AMD processor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty fails during the warranty period for reasons covered by this Limited Warranty, AMD, at its sole option, will: (1) repair the AMD processor by means of hardware and/or software; (2) replace the AMD processor with another AMD processor of equal or greater performance, OR, (3) if AMD is unable to repair or replace the AMD processor, refund the then-current value of the AMD processor.

It said it all!
You need to pay attention to very precise legal language!


The warranty are written as always in general terms, and refer to misissue and abuse of all products. This covers always improper installation and application.

The warranty by nature DOESN'T specify any or all brands, uses a standard general warranty legal language and some reservations. The final decision on warranty issues is in hands of AMD (sole option) and not yours.

All Warranties in US are also suplemanted by a Federal Warranty Act known as Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. (The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is the federal law that governs consumer product warranties.)

Do some research before posting wreckless statements like "USING ARCTIC SILVER WILL VOID YOUR AMD WARRANTY."

Cause it doesn't.
;-p

-mpjesse

Well I did and I also I dealt with AMD in person over the phone.

The warranty DOES not have to be specific, it falls in to misapplication, negligence and abuse!


Now when using Arctic Silver the warranty by using NOT approved by AMD product is void by AMD (not approved interface material), and unless Arctic Silver would provide the warranty under their product applications you are out of luck.

Non compliance with AMD installation manuals and recommendations which would be referred during warranty claims VOIDS the warranty.

The most common reason cited by AMD is that hardened surface of Arctic Silver might result in damage to processor when removing the processor by force, this includes also bent, or broken pins.

May I suggest that you call AMD technical support @ (408) 749-3060 and discuss with them the issue of warranty?

the installation "white papers" are available on AMD web site.

i.e tech cocumentation

13. Inspect the thermal interface material on the bottom of the heatsink for scratches The heatsink has a thermal interface material pre-applied on the bottom. This material protected by a plastic cover. (See Figure 12.)
Do not use the thermal interface material if it has scratches or gaps. If replacement interface material is needed, contact AMD technical support for assistance at
http://ask.amd.com or (408) 749-3060.

In EMEA, please contact AMD technical
assistance at http://www.amd.com/support .
If a heatsink is removed for any reason, clean the processor and heatsink surface an AMD-approved thermal interface material before reinstalling the processor.


builders data


Caution: The processor will overheat and fail if the heatsink is not installed so that it sits parallel to the top of the processor, or if the heatsink touches any part of the socket itself. This may result in permanent damage to the processor.

Completing System Assembly

Follow the instructions for mounting the motherboard with processor into the case, as outlined in the case literature.

On the AMD website, there are general instructions on how to build a system. To review these instructions go to:
http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon-duron/howtobuild/howtobuild.html
For system cooling guidelines (case characteristics to look for, airflow patterns, where cooling fans should be installed, etc.), go to:
http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon-duron/pdf/cooling_guide.pdf

If You Need Help

For technical assistance with the installation of your new processor, or for technical questions about its operation, the E-mail addresses and technical support phone numbers can be found on our support website at the following URL:
http://www.amd.com/support/support.html

Returns
Whenever possible, please return both the failed processor and attached heatsink to your vender. Having both components allows the AMD engineers to more fully diagnose any problems.


I did and I was told over the phone by the MANAGER of AMD Technical Support prior to RMA that use of other than stock heat sink and fan as well as use on NOT APPROVED by AMD thermal interface materials (Shin Etsu MicroSi’s G765, Shin-Etsu MicroSi’s G-751 or better ) will VOID the warranty on processor, subject to AMD (sole option) discretion.

The reason I called was that after the failure of system, damage to heat sink, replacement of heat sink, I RMA CPU and knowing AMD policies I wanted to obtain or to purchase additional thermal grease (shin etsu G-765 or other as required by AMD) from AMD, otherwise not available locally.

Same applies to overclocking of processors which is covered under the warranty as "negligence or abuse" by the user.

The decision will be only AMD RMA department decision with no right to appeal, unless you are willing to sue on substantial evidence of "defects in material and workmanship" what is very unlikely.
You are only depending on AMD so called "Good Faith".

If you use CPU without a fan (even accidental) or fry CPU when overclocking AMD would NOT replace the CPU!

AMD also recommends that the installation be performed "ONLY" by the experts only, whatever it means.


Interface Materials

The interface material used between the heatsink and
processor is important. The purpose of this material is to fill any microscopic air gaps and ensure a thermally efficient path is established for heat to flow from the package into the heatsink.
There are several different types of thermally conductive
interface material in use today. The most common are grease, wax, thermal pads/tapes, and epoxy. While dry interfaces (pads and tapes) are often the easiest to use, they have the poorest thermal resistance. They are not recommended because small pockets of air can be trapped during installation. Wet or paste interfaces (grease, gel, wax, and epoxy) have lower thermal resistances and allow air bubbles to migrate out of the interface material.

Although epoxy, when handled correctly, can provide a
reasonable thermal interface, it is not a reliable mechanical attachment. Caution should also be taken with pre-applied trapped beneath the heatsink during assembly. AMD recommends the use of grease and gels as thermal interfaces.

These materials are able to maintain the lowest thermal
resistance more consistently. In general, these materials can
achieve a thermal resistance of 0.15 to 0.3°C/W.

The application of interface material, in addition to material
type, is also important. Its purpose is simply to fill microscopic air gaps and ensure a thermally efficient path for heat transfer.

Only a thin layer of interface material is desired between the
heatsink and processor. Excessive amounts of interface
material will restrict the flow of heat to the heatsink and
thereby make the thermal solution less effective.

Due to the light weight of most heatsinks, mechanical clips are the recommended method of attachment. In addition to
providing stability, clips provide approximately 10–15 pounds
of downward pressure on the heatsink to minimize the thermal resistance of the thermal interface material.



Lets not argue about what I do now and what you are taking for granted.

And as far as you do have an extensive knowledge it doesn't mean that my knowledge is lesser than yours, in deed I might know a little more than you think.

You DO NOT know my background, so be very carefull when you adress me.

AMD has several instructional VIDEOS which discuss the issue of applications and installations.

Here are some of their Videos:

Full video

Processor Install

Heat Sink Install

Heat Sink Removal

Cleaning after Heat Sink Removal

There are thosands of documents which discuss the aplications, methods and materials covered and recommended by the manufacturer. Such can ALWAYS be cited when AMD will not want to pay for your negligence.

Are you by chance suggesting that should you fry CPU when overclocking AMD warranty will cover
your negligence?

Notice that AMD does not recommend any liquids (i.e. alcohol) to clean thermal grease. You might however use fluid such as (only BUTHANE, or degreasing LIQUID GASES) wich evaporates with no residue and does not penetrate the chip.

So please GIVE me the credit for what i know and what I said and do not credit yourself with hear say or speculations.

Believe me that I do have a lot more practical experience in dealing with those issues than you!

The youth, theories and lack of experience is not a substitute for knowledge and practical experience.

You might look on http://www.amd.com for video on thermal interface materials if you still have some objections.
 

pcrig

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yeah use isopropyl alcohol, it will be pretty easy to remove. especially on processors with a heat spreader (ie, basically any processor on the market right now). it was a lot harder on older ones like my athlon xp

Wrong!

Alcohol is or might be mixed with water, and might damage processor.

AMD video

The only liquid (fluid) recommended is a BUTHANE gas (lighter fluid) as it evaporates with no residues.
However it is highly flammable and must be used in well ventilated work stations.
 

Grimmy

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So Artic Silver 5's instructions are wrong when removing a thermal pad?

Thermal pads can be scraped off with a plastic tool that will not scratch the bottom then the remnants can be removed with a xylene based cleaner, (Goof Off and some carburetor cleaners) acetone, mineral spirits, or high-purity isopropyl alcohol.

8O My pentium... my poor poor pentium...

Oh nm.. you guys are talking about AMD... Whooo.. I feel better.
 

pcrig

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Uhm...I reccomend what I use as well as what is the BEST performing thermal grease out there. I have been using Arctic Silver 5 for a couple years now on an OLD ATHLON XP-M!!!! I HAVE HAD NO ISSUES AT ALL!



Actually .
Arctic Silver 5is not thermal grease as it contains solid materials (Arctic Silver 5 contains over 88% thermally Conductive filler by weight. In addition to micronized silver, Arctic Silver 5 also contains sub-micron zinc oxide, aluminum oxide and boron nitride particles), it is what could be called heat conductive phase change material containing high-density filling of micronized silver and enhanced thermally conductive ceramic particles in a mixture of advanced polysynthetic oils.


Arctic Silver 5 was formulated to conduct heat, not electricity.

While much safer than electrically conductive silver and copper greases, Arctic Silver 5 should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. While it is not electrically conductive, the compound is very slightly capacitive and could potentially cause problems if it bridges two close-proximity electrical paths.